[CP] Rachel Alucard Gameplay Discussion

[Chaoschao222]

Ok, Kuru. So what's the input?

[Kurushii]

Ok, Kuru. So what's the input?

2363214C

[Chaoschao222]

Wiki fixed, then \o/

[Tari]

I'm not sure if 2C is actually punishable on hit, but it is extremely crappy. It's not a good idea to press buttons after. You'll probably either trade or get counter hit.

2C's frame data hasn't changed. It's just continuing to be crappy.

The only reason it's usually not punishable on-hit in the current game (and previous versions of the game) is because it causes opponents to go airborne on hit, and most characters don't have fast enough downwards aerial moves to take advantage of Rachel's recovery, don't land fast enough to use a ground normal, or don't have ground normals that are both fast and long-range enough to take advantage of Rachel's disadvantaged state.

Just to clarify, 2C has 13 active frames, 42 frames of recovery, and is a level 5 move. That means that if you hit on the earliest possible frame, you still have another 12 + 42 frames (54 frames) of recovery. The opponent, on the other hand, has 21 frames of aerial hitstun + 15 frames of aerial tech time (36 frames to recover), which leaves Rachel at a whopping -18 frames.

It's worth pointing out that Rachel is out of counter-hit state by that point.

If you hit the opponent with 2C on the ground, and they choose to neutral air tech, depending on the character's falling speed, they might be able to punish Rachel with a ground or air normal.

Spent a little while doing some testing to compile this approximate list of frame (dis)advantage from hitting grounded opponents with non-CH 2C:

************************************************

Values in parentheses are character's jump durations, while values after the colons are frame advantage for 2C on ground hit if opponent neutral air techs.

For approximately every 2 frames longer a character stays in the air when they jump, Rachel gains 1 frame of advantage on 2C ground hit.

This holds true for odd numbered jump frames, while even-numbered jump frames seem to have some extra variance (see Carl and Hakumen).

===

Taokaka (33): -8

Tsubaki (37): -6

Noel (39): -5

Ragna (39): -5

Jin (39): -5

Hazama (39): -5 (untested)

Makoto (39): -5

Platinum (39): -5

Relius (39): -5 (untested)

Valkenhayn (39): -5 (untested)

Bang (40): -5

Carl (42)*: -5

Hakumen (42): -5

Lamda-11 (42): -4

Mu-12 (42): -4

Litchi (43): -2

Tager (43): -2

Rachel (52)*: +1 or +2 (tested, but difficult to confirm; likely +2, as it would match the value inferred from Litchi's data)

Arakune (54)*: +2 or +3 (untested, likely +3, inferred from Rachel data)

=====

*NOTE:

=====

Carl, Rachel, and Arakune can all perform falling aerial moves as a punish for the 2C.

Carl and Arakune can both do falling j.A, though probably not much afterwards.

Rachel, however, can neutral air tech and do j.5DA or j.5DB into a full combo midscreen.

************************************************

Generally speaking, the only characters who can really punish 2C on hit are Taokaka and Rachel. However, if you hit an opponent in the corner, or if you hit a low airborne opponent with the first frame of 2C, a couple more opponents can get real combos off of falling air normals or off of ground normals with short reach.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Tari
formatting data

[TD]

2c is not only the worst get out of jail free move, it throws rachel right back in the hole. the mindgames...

[Tari]

Well, at least that info doesn't really change how we use the move already, haha.

Sorta annoying to realize that Rachel mirrors have the potential to be far more irritating than they already are, though.

On an unrelated note, I played BB for the first time in a while at the Carnival Burst monthly here and got destroyed by a bunch of stuff. It was both hilarious and sad to realize that I am horribly inept at this game right now. :|

[Kuuhaku]

If you guys were confused, why didn't you ask me to look it up in the mook's character guide section?

I actually checked there first, but it only had the frame data and not the actual input, so I checked the JP wiki page for Rachel.

[Tari]

Sorry, I didn't realize her astral input had changed, so I didn't bother to check what it was. Adjusted it on the character page as well (since Chao already fixed the frame data page).

edit: just realized that Rachel can't even do non-CH 2C and follow it up with another 2C as a gimmick. You'd just get counter-hit, lol. So good, Rachel.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Tari

[samthegreat]

It was both hilarious and sad to realize that I am horribly inept at this game right now. :|

Feels good to live in Montreal

[Kurushii]

I actually checked there first, but it only had the frame data and not the actual input, so I checked the JP wiki page for Rachel.

Sorry, I didn't realize her astral input had changed, so I didn't bother to check what it was. Adjusted it on the character page as well (since Chao already fixed the frame data page).

edit: just realized that Rachel can't even do non-CH 2C and follow it up with another 2C as a gimmick. You'd just get counter-hit, lol. So good, Rachel.

It's fine. I only scanned the character guide sections for the new characters because I figured the returning characters wouldn't have any major use of it. I'm thinking of scanning the new moves for each character later this week so I can have some kind of placeholder for them on the wiki until sprites are ripped on console. If you ladies want the whole Rachel section I don't mind doing it.

[Tari]

It's fine. I only scanned the character guide sections for the new characters because I figured the returning characters wouldn't have any major use of it. I'm thinking of scanning the new moves for each character later this week so I can have some kind of placeholder for them on the wiki until sprites are ripped on console. If you ladies want the whole Rachel section I don't mind doing it.

Sure, it'd be nice to fill in those gaps on the wiki. Thanks.

[Errol]

Have Rachel's combos changed much in CP? Thanks.

[TD]

here l am again. lol.

her 'signature' combo route (the route you're pretty much guaranteed to see in damaging combos, which is ...jc 2d dj2c lv2 stuff) has changed to (5b) 6a 236a or 4b, so most combos will now aim to instead get the opponent into a low juggle state. her basic bnb's and corner carry have largely remained the same.

[Errol]

I have seen that, the corner combos in CP look really simple. Float with 5cc and then just do like 5b 6a (something) repeatedly. then end. or do BBL for damage. NO doesn't seem to use CTs for damage in combos any (ok from the few matches I've watched).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcIQAQhfg4&feature=youtu.be&t=44m11s

You can't do stuff like in the start of this round in EX can you? air combo, then down wind and followup on the ground?

[TD]

in ex she gets jc 2d dj2c lv2 j214a 1d 5cc from this route. it is a 4 winds combo in ex but it is worth it and you get 1.5 - 2 winds back as well as more damage and meter gain as its cp counterpart, with the same corner carry and pumpkin oki

[samthegreat]

Nah you can't. You'd catch the opponent so high with 5B (cause 6A only combos into Iris/BBL at that height) that the follow-up wouldn't be worth it. CP Rachel converts anything into a BnB with corner carry and that is awesome (altough only N-O does it with this level of efficiency lol). Also her corner combos have a few variations such as j.C > j.236A > 2/3D x 2 or 3C > (frog hits) > B lobelia> etc.

According to N-O they're pretty hard actually...

EDIT: ah yeah there's kerokero (what TD said). The combo is almost intact in CP as well. But as for this kind of confirm... Idk, I think what N-O did is far more reliable.

EDIT2: after re-watching this match with Hazama, I'm pretty sure of it now... N-O is sandbagging against low dan players and mashes shit or plays dumb defense until he is one round from losing and then bodies them completely. This happens way too often lol.

Edited July 9, 2013 by samthegreat

[Errol]

I figured so. the faster falling speed has been a boon to all kinds of combo routes for characters.. Lots of new air to ground combos across the cast.

[Kuuhaku]

One main thing I noticed that really changes her combo route is the lack of things that put people airborne on hit. Before there was 3c8d, sword iris, 6a, lobelia, george, bbl, and 5cc in the corner. Now there's 4b, 3c8d, bbl, sword iris, george, and 5cc in the corner. 5cc and 3c, and I think? 4b all have really bad smp. 5cc and 3c is needed for knockdown/enders though most jp players mainly use 3c. So when playing, I felt a bit confused as far as trying to get both damage and knockdown. I think this I wish I had more time to get a better feel for her combo paths, but I'll have to wait until October.

But yeah. In combos where I did something like 3c bbl george 5cc, I was like "Shit. What now?". In hindsight, I should have used 4b 236a 5cc or j.2c for knockdown. Still, it's very important to be aware of the limitations in CP, which is not something you really had to worry about previously for Rachel.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Bohemian Polka

[TD]

That isn't really a problem, 6a still juggles with wind for a windless smp-less combo mid screen, and the other starters are still pretty good at what they do. Corner carry (j3db jc) + 6a + wind is how you will start mid screen ground combos, and jc 2d stuff is how you'll start air juggles.

N-o has a good knowledge of avoiding smp. He has shown that combos can be done even with a combo staple being used so early. There are routes that I've already noted an could share if inquired.

[kirbster]

Yeah you just have to watch a recent N-O vid (any of the best out of 11 exhibition matches that he participates will do) to see that the princess can start combos off pretty much any freaking hit. They are also less wind intensive than EX and mostly grounded, which is really good.

[samthegreat]

@Errol this is how you make Litchi your bitch

doujins when

[Kuuhaku]

Yeah. As I mentioned, there are definately ways around it, but it's something that makes her combo paths different from EX since her EX paths had a lot more flexibility. Now you just have to be more mindful when choosing what route to go.

I definantely agree though that the way her combos work now make her overall game stronger. Even not knowing any damaging combos, I still got by using 3c knockdown into j.A shenanigans.

[Errol]

@Errol this is how you make Litchi your bitch

excellent.

[Stoneroth]

Also her corner combos have a few variations such as j.C > j.236A > 2/3D x 2 or 3C > (frog hits) > B lobelia> etc.

According to N-O they're pretty hard actually...

I found the 5B > j.C > j.236A> 2D x 2 quite difficult to execute, the inputs seem very strict.

...and, of course, if N-O thinks her combos are hard, then they must be hard.

[Errol]

CSE, but, is it possible to end combos without burning your rods and keep frog oki?

Something like putting pumpkin out, and not using the rod, and then using the pumpkin on wakeup to ensure the frog? I dunno.

I'm guessing not or the bnb wouldn't do it.

It also seems like Rachel's damage, relatively, went up a lot in CP.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Errol