[CP] Rachel Alucard Gameplay Discussion

[TD]

Depends on what combos you're talking about really. The only time you really need to use a pole in a combo is as an ender for additional heat/wind gain/untech time... midscreen or corner (damage is meh), or if you must use it early in a combo for a windless juggle state, usually midscreen.

Poles are great tools but on oki it's probably best just to focus on pumpkin and/or frog. If you try to hoard them especially in the corner, your pressure will become weaker: stacked poles are actually worse in combos and offer the same advantage on block, so it is best to have one without 50 heat and if you get a hit/block with frog, get the other two out for a 3 pole max damage bbl/guard break. With heat of course

Only certain situations allow you to get pumpin and frog oki in the corner, but if you can't get it, pumpkin OR frog oki is almost as good. All of her oki options are very scary pretty much.

(Also, pumpkin covering frog for oki is pretty unsafe)

[Errol]

I'm talking about all the enders I see which are 5cc> 3c> 214C> 3c> frog. You get minimal damage off that and burn all your poles. so I'm not sure why that is the bnb ender unless you need to do it to guarantee frog oki. Combo thread also seemed to have some note about a particular combo not having guaranteed frog oki, and I wasn't sure why. I think it was.. 5b>5cdc>214a>3c(1)>236a>5cc>3c>214C>3c>214a. but no note about non-guaranteed frog oki on the others, which are slight modifications, like adding in a 4b/6b after the 236a.

also re: pumpkin covering for frog, what is it that is unsafe? I was thinking something like

5b>5cdc>214a>3c(1)>214B>4b>5cc>3c>214a... Assuming that frog isn't guaranteed here because why would you burn your pole for 20 damage if you don't need to.. I guess frog oki actually is guaranteed here, and you don't need to cover with pumpkin or anything? and you were probably thinking about something like tk frog > pumpkin on wakeup or something or other.

I was thinking that if frog oki weren't guaranteed you could 2d on wakeup while blocking or something till frog activated.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Errol

[kodimt]

5b>5cdc>3c(1)>236a>5cc>3c>214C>3c>214a

5b>5cdc>3c(1)>214B>4b>5cc>3c>214a.

How are either of those combos? I'm confused, or you word things odd.

As for 5cc> 3c> 214C> 3c> frog, that gives George enough time to recover so you can end in him again.

[Errol]

i forgot the frog after 5cdc. 5cdc>214a.

and that makes sense now.. so if you extend the combo a different way you don't have to burn your pole at the end of the combo.

[kodimt]

If you do : 5B 5CDC 214A 3C(1) 236A 4B 5CC 3C 214C 3C 214A

That uses 2 Georges, and as far as I know the only way to end in George oki. You have to burn the pole.

That's the combo I do anyways.

EDIT: You also mention this "Something like putting pumpkin out, and not using the rod, and then using the pumpkin on wakeup to ensure the frog? I dunno."

I believe TD means it's unsafe because pumpkin doesn't generate a lot of blockstun so you'll be stuck in the recovery of George and get punished for it. All because you kept a pole, that won't do anything you can't already do.

Edited July 10, 2013 by kodimt

[Tari]

You have a couple ways of doing George + Pumpkin oki in the corner if you really want to. It's probably not always what you'll want to do, but it's not unsafe, either. You'll be in neutral before the opponent can tech and attack you.

Off of most crap into the corner, you can do...

- x > 5CDC > 214A > (dash) 3C (1 hit) > 236A > 214B > dash 5CC > dash 3C (1 hit) > 214C > 3C (1 hit) > 214A

The above combo is actually a decent corner ender. You get your wind back and set up a frog and a pumpkin for oki. You lose the rod, however, which can be useful to have around. That said, if they block George, you can throw another rod out if you really want to.

If you hit them with George in the corner, you can do this:

- x > frog hit > 5C (as late as possible) C (also as late as possible) > 214B > dash 3C (3 hits) > 214A

While this is actually a pretty nice combo for setting stuff back up (costs no wind, summons a fresh pumpkin and frog), the timing is fairly strict if you want a safe frog summon at the end. If it's mistimed, you're likely to have a slight gap between the opponent recovering and you completing the frog summon. I also find it somewhat annoying to do, due to having to delay the second hit of 5CC. If you don't delay it enough, the opponent will tech far too early for you to even continue the combo.

===

The rest of these combos are sort of gimmicky and not suggested. They all cost you about half a wind and leave you with a pumpkin in a strange place after you use it for oki (the only useful wind direction after these combos is 4D, which leaves the pumpkin off behind you somewhere).

- x > frog hit > 5CC (as late as possible) > 214B > 3D > 5CC > dash 3C (1 hit) 214A

(requires very early confirmation of frog hit)

- x > frog hit > sj., dj., j.2C (lvl2), j.214B > 2D > 5B > 5CC > dash 3C (2 hits) > 214A

- x > frog hit > 236A > 5CC (as late as possible) > 214B > 3D > 5CC > dash 3C (1 hit) > 214C > 3C (1 hits) > 214A

Edited July 11, 2013 by Tari
fixed combo, whoops, lol

[kirbster]

You have a couple ways of doing George + Pumpkin oki in the corner if you really want to. It's probably not always what you'll want to do, but it's not unsafe, either. You'll be in neutral before the opponent can tech and attack you.

Off of most crap into the corner, you can do...

- x > 5CDC > 214A > 3C (1 hit) > 236A > 214B > dash 5CC > dash 3C (1 hit) > 214C > 3C (1 hit) > 214A

Fixed it for you, you forgot the 5cc. And this is the optimal stuff you wanna do for best oki, though it has a pretty strict timing I find.

[Errol]

thanks Tari. So that's a way you can end with frog oki, pumpkin, and a rod. Not sure why it is strange to want to have a rod. Probably too new still.

TBH I am still at the stage of finding 5CDC>214A>3C annoying.

I am still in the middle of trying to get my brain to grasp that when I confirm I have to hit two buttons at the same time, and then I have to hit one of them again, and special cancel and 3c right away which seems oddly tight. Need watch more videos. but wonder how many of the EX ones will still be up and not lying 10 feet under with Jourdal's old account.

[kodimt]

You do not have to hit 5CD as 2 buttons. You just can tap them in that order C D C.

You'll find that Rachel has a lot of flexibility and it isn't all GOTTA GO FAST or tight combos.

[Errol]

Yeah. though I did find that if you don't wind as quick as possible, stuff that would combo doesn't. I was doing 5CD>3C>236B and wondering why the 236B sometimes whiffed. CD input at the same time always works, a bit of a delay and 236B starts whiffing. But I don't know, it's basically just that I have no exp. confirming with her and prob should hit an ai for some time.

[kodimt]

Yeah, it's all about what works best for you. I'm sure we all have some method of pressing her buttons. I personally just tap them, albeit rather fast.

I'm sure some of us can play online if you need that kind of help. Just glad to see more Rachel players.

[TD]

thanks Tari. So that's a way you can end with frog oki, pumpkin, and a rod. Not sure why it is strange to want to have a rod. Probably too new still. TBH I am still at the stage of finding 5CDC>214A>3C annoying. I am still in the middle of trying to get my brain to grasp that when I confirm I have to hit two buttons at the same time, and then I have to hit one of them again, and special cancel and 3c right away which seems oddly tight. Need watch more videos. but wonder how many of the EX ones will still be up and not lying 10 feet under with Jourdal's old account.

for not having the rod, generally it gives the least advantage on oki outside of tk iris which is good, but you have to commit to it. with pumpkin you are more or less completely safe vs everything, and frog involves commitment too but the risk/reward and damage is way higher than 1, 2, or 3 poles. (combining the too also means guaranteed 2 second mixup) you can also just 236a while frog is active during corner oki.

[Celerity]

Yeah. though I did find that if you don't wind as quick as possible, stuff that would combo doesn't. I was doing 5CD>3C>236B and wondering why the 236B sometimes whiffed. CD input at the same time always works, a bit of a delay and 236B starts whiffing. But I don't know, it's basically just that I have no exp. confirming with her and prob should hit an ai for some time.

I actually do the D first and piano to C, 5DCC or 5DC > 3C. As far as I know there's no problem doing it this way, as long as you're quick.

[TD]

also, imo the most optimal frog corner probably is

...(frog hits) (4b) 5cc dash 5b jc 2d dj2c(lv2) j.214b dash 5cc (dash 5cc) 214a. this is the one l use after a 2b on oki because it doubles as a safe low/high mixup that can also go into low/low and other stuff. and 4b is her hardest hitting normal outside j2c so its really good already for confirms

Edited July 11, 2013 by TD

[kodimt]

The problem is, he's apparently having difficulty just on 5CDC 214A 3C much less j2C combos.

I'd rather just take it easy until you grasp winding and what not. Too much information can be daunting, but it's good to know regardless.

[TD]

oh, right. yeah i'm getting carried away lol. ok, well, if you need anything...

[Tari]

Fixed it for you, you forgot the 5cc. And this is the optimal stuff you wanna do for best oki, though it has a pretty strict timing I find.

Thanks for pointing that out.

And yeah, going into the corner with knockdown, that's optimal. There are very few situations in which you'd opt to not go for that ender if you're looking for corner lockdown.

When I said "not always what you'll want to do", I was referring to stuff like BBL and whatever damage combo paths, lol.

----

TD's corner frog combo path is pretty much optimal for damage, and you get both a frog and pumpkin out for oki. You do lose about half a wind stock from doing it.

That said, the j.214A in the combo should probably be a j.214B.

[TD]

Oops! Fixed

Ah the fallacies of being a human. That's why I put in that application to be a cat

[Dreize]

I was doing 5CD>3C>236B and wondering why the 236B sometimes whiffed. CD input at the same time always works, a bit of a delay and 236B starts whiffing.

Isn't this character specific? As in, it doesn't work on characters such as Noel, Litchi, etc.

[Stoneroth]

Isn't this character specific? As in, it doesn't work on characters such as Noel, Litchi, etc.

Character specific indeed. (Listed in the combo thread)

Currently in training mode, the wind timing is fairly lenient. It seems as long as you connect 3C (3 hits) it will work regardless.

[Zoular]

Need watch more videos. but wonder how many of the EX ones will still be up and not lying 10 feet under with Jourdal's old account.

If this is any help to ya, if you just wanna see general gameplay of Rachel there's this playlist. Extend stuff starts at 22nd vid.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCA9B7260518ECA8A&feature=mh_lolz

[Errol]

Character specific indeed. (Listed in the combo thread)

Currently in training mode, the wind timing is fairly lenient. It seems as long as you connect 3C (3 hits) it will work regardless.

I don't remmeber what char I was doing it on, cept that it worked, but not if wind was too late. 3 hits of 3c would hit and then 236B would whiff. Like as if trying to do it on Ragna, but on a char that it does work on.

for the record I have now played literally 4 matches. lol.

[Stoneroth]

I don't remmeber what char I was doing it on, cept that it worked, but not if wind was too late. 3 hits of 3c would hit and then 236B would whiff. Like as if trying to do it on Ragna, but on a char that it does work on.

for the record I have now played literally 4 matches. lol.

I was delaying the wind as much as possible in order to still get the 3 hits of 3C and it worked everytime. The wind should only be too late if 3C doesn't connect properly, it should be easy to tell if this is happening. I don't think the wind is your problem to be honest.

I generally always press 5CD at the same time midscreen anyway but do whatever you're comfortable with. The combo thread lists the character specifics of that combo if you haven't looked there already. Should be under 1 wind midscreen section?

[Tari]

I don't remmeber what char I was doing it on, cept that it worked, but not if wind was too late. 3 hits of 3c would hit and then 236B would whiff. Like as if trying to do it on Ragna, but on a char that it does work on.

for the record I have now played literally 4 matches. lol.

For what it's worth, if you just want to learn the timing of the 3C > 236B, you can go into training mode, shove the opponent into the corner, and then just do a point-blank 3C > 236B without wind.

You can actually do that windless practice mid-screen, as well, but you can't really combo after it effectively on most characters, iirc. Might be a different story if you do a dashing 3C, can't recall.

[Errol]

see I don't think it is the timing of 3c>236b at all. on whatever char I was testing against, if you aren't right up against them when you 3c, they aren't as high in the air after the 3rd 3c hit, so 236B whiffs. Might have been Jin? I dunno. I'll try to find out after work. Not even sure as to how tight, just that cd and d input at the same time made it always work. Also, not sure if this combo is really something that matters anyway - since it seems to not work against almost half the cast.

probably distance and character specific, and timing of wind affects distance. That's all.

Also need to go watch some videos to find out what people actually confirm 6c from. to some degree I have assume that I want confirms to not work at not point blank range but maybe that's not so important, if you largely enter with wind and will be right on top of them. Maybe I am remembering wrong but I seem to remember something simple like 5b>4b>6c or 5b>5c>6c not working. In short, still much to learn.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Errol