[CP] Rachel Alucard Gameplay Discussion

[Warhound]

Oh...I was looking forward to reading those too...

[Errol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmkKjDW-Zk4&feature=youtu.be&t=19m35s

What happens here when Rachels momentum stops in the middle of the air?

[TD]

the 3d that had been used was not quite finished yet. rachel cannot dash far in the opposite direction of the wind used

[Errol]

I guess I wasn't sure cuz she really hung there. whenever I try to use an airdash against the wind the wind totally overrides it.

Silly question... can you not burst without using wind?

[Dreize]

That is not a silly question. I've been having the same issue.

[TD]

l think the only time wind wont autouse is if shes in hitsun or hitstop, or something similar.

otherwise no

[kirbster]

OMG GO TOKIDO

EDIT : NOOOOOOOO

Edited July 15, 2013 by kirbster

[TD]

uh...?

[tofurr]

EVO, SSFIV

[Errol]

l think the only time wind wont autouse is if shes in hitsun or hitstop, or something similar.

otherwise no

i've noticed it eating wind during green bursts, so don't know exactly what it is.. but it sucks.

new BBL and TD in CP are really damn sweet. Granted, they seem to have kind of made BBL into a combo ender rather than extender, but the damage is hilarious.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Errol

[samthegreat]

[...] they seem to have kind of made BBL into a combo ender rather than extender, but the damage is hilarious.

Actually it's pretty sad by itself but pole damage on BBL has been buffed greatly and she can place 2 or 3 quite easily in a single combo, so it's pretty nice.

[Errol]

most chars had their DD guaranteed dmg nerfed.

tsubaki's lvl 0 d does 660, lvl 5 does 1923 (2080 in OD)

Makoto's PF3 does 1100, 1562 in OD

Makoto double DD ender is 2162 (BBS > PF)

BBL does 540 with no poles, 810 in OD

with 3 poles it does 1380, 2250 in OD...

and it's one you can do two back-to-back of, and you can get 1 pole in before the 2nd BBL..

NO almost never uses OD, but then he uses it and tacks on around 3600 in guaranteed damage.. which is hilarious to me.

[samthegreat]

TD I remember you were looking for N-O vs Hazama matches. Well this is the deal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS7kxS95mp4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1702s

'Notice the difference between how he plays in a ranbat/tournament and 3 out of 5 casuals vs low Dans? I feel he could repeatedly murder them if he went all out, which isn't very nice lol

[Errol]

what do you guys use for IOH combos in EX? off a j.A hit, off a fuzzy (>j.B j.A j.C I think), from a max range 5b (jump cancel, 3d wind).. etc?

[kirbster]

Off j.a instant overhead (or j.b fuzzy starter), you should get used to the microdash 5b, so say : 5b > j.2ad > j.b > DASH 5b, and then...

If you're midscreen and low on wind, you can choose to do end this with 5cc into pumpkin and frog summon, which sends them away and gives you time to regen wind. If you have 2 or 3 wind stocks, you can end with 3c into pumpkin oki which is godlike.

If you're in the corner, go straight into 5cc > 236b > dash 5cc > dash 3c > iris > 3c > frog or pumpkin oki.

Edited July 16, 2013 by kirbster

[Errol]

microdash normal from landing is something my tsubaki and makoto experience helps me with. Thanks. Love pumpkin. so good.

[samthegreat]

In the corner you also have fairly damaging options depending on your resources.

Here's a good combo if you have 50 meter and 3 wind stocks (before the IOH hits):

j.2AD > j.B > 5B > 5CD > 3C(3) > BBL > sj.8D > j.2C (lvl3 fatal) > 214A > 5CC > 236A > (frog) > 4B > 5CC > dash 3C > 214C > 3C > 214A/B

For those who want to step their execution up only

Hard mode:

j.2AD > j.B > 5B > 5CD > 3C(3) > BBL > sj.8D > j.2C (lvl3 fatal) > 214A > 5CC > 236A > (frog) > sdj.2C (lvl2)* > 2A(w) > 5CC > dash 3C > 214C > 3C > 214A/B

* Super jump and double jump then immediately j.2C. If timed correctly, you'll hit your opponent right out of George with a lv2 bounce. If j.2C is done too early (while frog is still attacking) you'll get a lv1 knockdown (you don't want that), if you're too late the opponent will air tech. Unstable on a few characters in my experience...

And cause I feel like it: 4 wind stocks 150 meter double frog combo from instant overhead (not practical)

j.2AD > j.B > 5B > 5CD > 3C(3) > BBL > sj.8D > j.2C (lvl3 fatal) > 214A > 5CC > (frog) > 236A x2 > dash 3C > 8D > 5B > j.C > 2D > 9jc > j.C > land > j.C > j.C > 214C > BBL > backstep > 214A > walk > 3C > (frog) > 236A > 3C > 214C > BBL > 3C > 214B

Disregard those for now errol until you're comfortable with all of the basics, posting this in case some Rachel players here would like to take it to the next level.

Edited July 16, 2013 by samthegreat

[Stoneroth]

Thanks for those, Sam. I've been really trying to improve my execution and combo options recently so I'll give those a go later.

Also, a question about IOH > fuzzy guard setups. I find it quite hard to consistently do 5B > j.2AD > j.B jc j.A/B on Carl because of his standing hitbox. Do you think I should opt for 5B > j.2BD instead, or just get better?

[Errol]

Yep, thanks Sam. Actually things seem to be going better now. I'm starting to be able to get that lvl 2 j2c > 2a(w)>5c(w)>5cc combo? wtf? But it's true.

I've noticed tho while doing it, that if 5cc hits too high then, (of course), you can't do the normal followup. but have also noticed that, if you put out george like normal, and then a lobelia, it'll hit extremely meaty on a neutral tech - and you're at a decent range, such that I think you'd be safe from a lot of DPs (actually, you can probably block any DPs - and after the lobelia block stun, george will lock em down.

Any thoughts on this? Seems like a pretty damn good setup for a combo miss.. I like pumpkin oki but seems better than just plain frog oki to me (well.. duh I guess). You've got a pole to start too.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Errol

[Tari]

I had wanted to give a more detailed response to this earlier, but this is an unfortunately very late reply, as I was at EVO and pretty much zonked out for the entire weekend. Sorry about that.

I was practicing this midscreen combo on Bang:

6A CH > Dash > 5B > j.C > 2D > Jump Cancel > j.2C > 236B > j.C > dj.C > j.214C > BBL > 214A > 236A > Dash > 3C(1) > 214C > (Frog) > 236A > 3C(1) > 214C > 3C(1) > 214B

I finally got it down to a serviceable level and was quite pleased with myself as I enjoyed the way the combo looked. So, I went to try it out on Hazama (since I play someone who mains Hazama relatively regularly) and voila! Nope. Falls too quickly from BBL.

Yeah, pretty much this. Bang gets hit much more than Hazama does by BBL and because of that he stays in the air for a longer period of time, thus I have time to set-up 214A and 236A on the ground. Whereas, Hazama only gets hit a few times and falls down almost immediately.

This combo is actually completely stable on Hazama. Just to double-check, I tried it with a slightly delayed BBL, with delayed j.C > dj.C, and with 6A CH > dash 5B, and it combo'd in every situation.

If you'd like, I can record a video of the combo as reference later on. It's hard to say where you might have run into problems without seeing you perform the combo, unfortunately.

My best guess is that your BBL is coming out too late. You can buffer the input of BBL during the Sword Iris and hit the button as soon as it ends.

The only other possibilities I can think of are that your j.2C (lvl 2) height is too low, or that your 236B is hitting too early. Both can potentially cause issues with opponent placement when the Sword Iris hits.

I was also a tad frustrated with one of her corner BnBs:

5B > 5CDC > 214A > 3C(1) > 236A > (Frog) > Dash > 4B/6B > 5CC > Dash > 3C(1) > 214C > 3C(1) > 214A

As the 214C would always blue beat. After doing a bit more research, I found out that when you're too close to them when you start the combo it blue beats (thus you should always add a 6B after the initial 5B if you can). Silly mistake on my part.

This shouldn't be an issue, either. There are two possible reasons that your combo is dropping at the 214C:

1) You're winding too late during 5CDC. This one is the likely issue. A late wind (for example, 5C(CD), where you push the second C and D at the same time) will cause you too slide forward during the 214A, which puts you too close for 3C (1) > 236A to drop a rod in range of the opponent.

2) You're microdashing before the first 3C. I doubt this is the issue.

Lastly, I found that the BBL > sj.8 > j.2C FC link was easier to perform on Ragna (as I couldn't do it on any other cast member for whatever reason, though to be fair I didn't try it out on too many different characters).

This is actually somewhat character specific. Some characters (ie: Tager) have huge aerial hitboxes, while others have significantly smaller aerial hitboxes. Characters also fall at different rates while airborne. Those two factors combined makes the j.2C (lvl3) timing a bit varied between characters.

All I can say for this is to practice. There is still a pretty reasonable average timing you can use to land the level 3 on pretty much everyone. It's not really something I can explain, though.

If you have any questions about combos and whatnot, feel free to ask here. If you want video examples or anything, a couple of us have recording equipment, though I don't know about whether people will have time to help out or not. For the time being, I'm not highly pressed for time, so I can record things.

Anyway, glad you're learning Rachel. :D

Yep, thanks Sam. Actually things seem to be going better now. I'm starting to be able to get that lvl 2 j2c > 2a(w)>5c(w)>5cc combo? wtf? But it's true.

I've noticed tho while doing it, that if 5cc hits too high then, (of course), you can't do the normal followup. but have also noticed that, if you put out george like normal, and then a lobelia, it'll hit extremely meaty on a neutral tech - and you're at a decent range, such that I think you'd be safe from a lot of DPs (actually, you can probably block any DPs - and after the lobelia block stun, george will lock em down.

Any thoughts on this? Seems like a pretty damn good setup for a combo miss.. I like pumpkin oki but seems better than just plain frog oki to me (well.. duh I guess). You've got a pole to start too.

Didn't check this myself, but it sounds pretty solid.

That said, the issue with very meaty frog setups is that the opponent can just opt to not tech, and then you lose George and your hard knockdown. The opponent will eat an extra few hundred damage for what basically amounts to a guaranteed air tech.

Not necessarily the biggest issue, but it's still notable.

You also don't really give the opponent any room to do anything except block, but with Rachel's corner mixup, that's not a huge issue unless you're low on wind.

Also, while it's not a really important issue, it's worth pointing out that if the combo is long enough, this sort of setup actually would allow the opponent to tech after the 236A and before George even activates, which is pretty scary. Mind you, that is an incredibly rare situation, as it's hard to get hard knockdown with George and a meaty lobelia after an extended combo without the opponent already having the option to tech earlier.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Tari

[Errol]

Didn't check this myself, but it sounds pretty solid.

That said, the issue with very meaty frog setups is that the opponent can just opt to not tech, and then you lose George and your hard knockdown. The opponent will eat an extra few hundred damage for what basically amounts to a guaranteed air tech.

Not necessarily the biggest issue, but it's still notable.

You also don't really give the opponent any room to do anything except block, but with Rachel's corner mixup, that's not a huge issue unless you're low on wind.

Also, while it's not a really important issue, it's worth pointing out that if the combo is long enough, this sort of setup actually would allow the opponent to tech after the 236A and before George even activates, which is pretty scary. Mind you, that is an incredibly rare situation, as it's hard to get hard knockdown with George and a meaty lobelia after an extended combo without the opponent already having the option to tech earlier.

Yeah, but it is worth noting that I would probably be doing this in the case that I dropped my combo. the normal followup to the combo would be to 3c> lobelia> stuff. So, If they don't tech it, they don't just take a few hundred extra damage, they take the full rest of the combo, long enough to put out george again and go for normal oki. But you are probably right about slightly delayed tech. They might be able to jump out, they definitely wouldn't be able to punish lobelia...

I don't normally expect anything good out of a combo drop. So this is quite nice considering I just can't seem to make it stable to hit 5cc when they are low in the air. Altho, I don't think there is much to be gained by learning it for CP.

It was a 6a starter I was testing off, btw. Don't know if you can do a full combo off a throw. Something like throw>5b>(lvl 2 j2c stuff, whiffs etc)> 5cc> 3c>a lobe> 4b>5cc>3c>214c>3c>214a.

But yeah, as you say, if you have wind they can't do much besides block anyway... if you have pumpkin out. Which is the other thing I'm working on. lvl 2 j2c>pumpkin>5cc seems to work ok for getting it out. Unless I can get pumpkin out that way I am thinking I'd rather take pumpkin oki than frog oki...

[kodimt]

Yes, if you hit your 5CC too soon and get both hits, or second hits slightly too soon, you can still put out a George and get oki.

I miss mine all the time and I'm like whatever, you still have to block.

Not sure how it is if people don't tech. They usually always do~

Edited July 16, 2013 by kodimt

[TD]

Pumpkin oki only loses to quick rise when spaced correctly in the corner. In terms of safety it is a more reliable than frog for oki, and it allows for more options that we don't actually need for oki lol like throw shenanigans.

TD I remember you were looking for N-O vs Hazama matches. Well this is the deal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS7kxS95mp4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1702s

'Notice the difference between how he plays in a ranbat/tournament and 3 out of 5 casuals vs low Dans? I feel he could repeatedly murder them if he went all out, which isn't very nice lol

Thank you. I appreciate the service.

[Errol]

N-O seems to be tweeting about all of the matchups. This guy is golden, fountain of knowledge on his twitter.

Says litchi is a bit tough. Someone told me litchi would be my bitch.. this a bait and switch guys?

[Tari]

Litchi's always been an annoying matchup for Rachel. Her normals and staff moves are good for stuffing Rachel's zoning attempts, and her combos will almost always involve extended corner carry while you're airborne, so you won't be regaining wind while being hit (though this is true of many characters' combos).

It's mostly just her anti-zoning potential that makes her irritating for Rachel to play against. If you summon something in the wrong place, expect to be punished for it on reaction and end up in the corner with Daisharin spinning on your face. Even if you do get your summons out safely, remember that Litchi's staff can eat a hit of your pumpkin or just tag you at range (which can negate a pumpkin or cause George to dissipate).

It's not as bad as it used to be, though. Litchi's old combos and corner oki were 20 times more annoying to watch, hahaha.

Anyway, the matchup isn't really terrible, it's just far more annoying to deal with.

...especially since her crouching hitbox is too low for the instant overheads in this game, so you have to delay.............