if you're an ex BB player or really anyone for that matter, how does this game feel to you?

[Soriphen]

I'm not even gonna lie...but I think it's the one of the best fighting games next to 3s IMO. After watching days worth of accumulated footage of P4A since release...I can honestly say that the game went past my expectations. It has all that I want in a fighter engine with the accessibility that I think every fighter should have. The thing I always advocate is ease of gameplay for fighting games, so that a player can get better technically in a shorter amount of time. Then you can focus on your play style and mind games.

Just wish they used GGPO online D:

Edited August 14, 2012 by Soriphen

[Airk]

So, you seem like someone who didn't play GGXXAC. That game had a combo system where 35%-40% was something you could reasonably expect off of most hitconfirms and you could get 50%-60% with some meter. It actually didn't make the game dumb or annoying - it made it terribly, terribly exciting, because you knew that your mistakes mattered a lot and that, conversely, you had an opportunity to come back from more or less any amount of health if you had a good eye. High damage made GG totally awesome.

You're right; I didn't play GGXXAC, and hearing this, I'm glad. Sorry, but for me, games where one mistake costs you 60% of your health are too random. Yes. Random. The higher the damage numbers, the more stupid and random the game becomes - it's part of why Marvel is such a dumb game in my opinion; If you can play solid for 90% of a round and then lose from a huge life lead on one combo, the game is random.

What I think all the people who assert that "Oh, that makes your mistakes matter" don't understand is that, in fact, how high the damage is in a game is only a part of how much mistakes matter. Yes, obviously if a combo does enough damage to kill you it matters more, but the real factor is how much damage a 'punish' combo does vs a 'normal' combo. Let's say you've got a game where BnBs do 10% health and a massive punish combo does 35% health. Mistakes matter more in that game than they do in a game where BnBs do 30% and punish combos do 50%, because you need 4 BnBs to "come back" and take a lead from being punished in the first game and only two in the latter. And since high damage has the undesirable effect of pushing the game in the direction of becoming a random "whoever gets the first hit wins" affair, I think it's better design to keep overall damage low and punish damage relatively higher. Resource expediture can help mitigate this somewhat ("you need meter to make a big comeback") but usually those resources are in good supply if you don't waste them, so it makes less of a difference than you might think - especially in games where you get meter for taking damage.

I realize some people like this style of play, but I think I don't, and I wish more people designed the types of games I want to play, because I feel they are objectively better, because they reward solid play more than just making sure you get the max damage off of two opportunities.

Uh. Anyway, none of this really has much to do with P4A, as it's no more or less random or damaging than BB. I wish it was less so, but I still like it as is, and I'm thrilled to see all the Capcom players breaking out of their comfort zone and playing a less boring (if from SF4) or lame (if from Marvel) fighter. I have no issues at all with the accessability features, and for the most part, I think they've been implemented very nicely. The reduction of basically all moves to QCF motions also eliminates a significant barrier to entry as well. I'm not 100% sure if I like the "two button DP" mechanism, but I haven't really seen what it does to play yet, so I'm withholding judgement.

Thumbs up to Arcsys for this though.

[mAc Chaos]

It seems like every character in this game is a Carl clone. How does it work. I'm tempted to get P4A but I don't really like that play style.

[Hecatom]

Snip

I am only going to say that you need to play more games before making assumptions, and don't let yourself get fooled, the 60% combos on GG are not the norm, all of them needed meter and optimal hit confirms (counters and stuff like that), also for that kind of stuff to happen, one of the payers must be outplaying really hard the other one.

Go watch some matches and you would notice that, even when something like that can happen, it is not as frequent, and when it happens is due one player simply reading better the other one.

Sorry, but for me, games where one mistake costs you 60% of your health are too random. Yes. Random.

LMAO, you have the right to have your preference on games, but dismissing the games where this is some what more common as random, or dumb is plain stupid, also people like to throw the word random way to much, and usually it doesn't have any real meaning in the context

[WonderTonic]

It seems like every character in this game is a Carl clone. How does it work. I'm tempted to get P4A but I don't really like that play style.

I was expecting this going in, but you'll see no character except for Shadow Labrys feels remotely close to Carl. And even she seems to have a much easier learning curve than Carl. It feels like personas are just extensions of the characters and not separate entities(nirvana, Eddie, dog) in a majority of the cases. but that's just me.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Soriphen]

I think it's safe to say that almost every fighter has high damage combos for one mistake. However, they mostly all have one thing in common, you need meter. If you're worried about the abare in P4A, there's nothing to be afraid...since you'll need resources to do high damage.

It's not like Skullgirls 1.0 with the insanely high abare everyone has (<3 SG and we all know it'll be patched). You can't just jab someone and expect a ~60% combo starting with no meter. It may be at the higher end of the spectrum of damaging combos, but, it doesn't overdo it and executes it with fairness.

[Silmerion]

Sorry, but for me, games where one mistake costs you 60% of your health are too random. Yes. Random.

Couldn't disagree with you more. When one mistake can cost you the whole match and tight play will consistently let you kill your opponent dead, which is what high damage does to a game, the game becomes less random and more skill-rewarding.

Ever watch Divekick? That game is hilarious, but the more skilled player always wins.

[Hecatom]

Word, the fact that one mistake could harm you a lot, puts more emphasis you not letting get caught on a position that allows your opponent punish you in an optimal way (at least on the well designed games).

[Rhiya]

snip

I understand you took a lot of time to post this, and replying like this is kind of disrespectful.

However, you're really not accounting for a lot of variables. Mistakes and punishes can vary wildly. If I misspace a boring poke, and get CH'd by someone else's boring poke, that's probably not gonna be a serious punish -- you can expect BNB damage. But if I DP and you call that shit out, /that/ will result in those 60% combos he's talking about.

The real take-home message is that you can't evaluate things like damage in a vacuum. Touch of death sounds ridiculous, until I tell you I need 150 meter, my burst, and an impossible hitconfirm after getting into your face. And 2000 bnb damage sounds shitty compared to that character over there, until you understand that I've got the best poke in the game by a wide margin, and hit people with it all day, or that I get absolutely obscene okizeme with four-way mixups straight back into the same shit over and over.

There is one thing I'd like to yell at you for a bit more, though.

What I think all the people who assert that "Oh, that makes your mistakes matter" don't understand is that, in fact, how high the damage is in a game is only a part of how much mistakes matter. Yes, obviously if a combo does enough damage to kill you it matters more, but the real factor is how much damage a 'punish' combo does vs a 'normal' combo. Let's say you've got a game where BnBs do 10% health and a massive punish combo does 35% health. Mistakes matter more in that game than they do in a game where BnBs do 30% and punish combos do 50%, because you need 4 BnBs to "come back" and take a lead from being punished in the first game and only two in the latter. And since high damage has the undesirable effect of pushing the game in the direction of becoming a random "whoever gets the first hit wins" affair, I think it's better design to keep overall damage low and punish damage relatively higher. Resource expediture can help mitigate this somewhat ("you need meter to make a big comeback") but usually those resources are in good supply if you don't waste them, so it makes less of a difference than you might think - especially in games where you get meter for taking damage.

What you want here isn't a good game; it's a boring game, where everyone has to be roughly the same or someone will become broken in the flash of an eye. If everyone does 10% health off their bnb, then the person with the best poke is suddenly amazing because he hits everyone else so much more consistently. Do you see where I'm going with this?

[BatousaiJ]

Sorry, but for me, games where one mistake costs you 60% of your health are too random. Yes. Random. The higher the damage numbers, the more stupid and random the game becomes - it's part of why Marvel is such a dumb game in my opinion; If you can play solid for 90% of a round and then lose from a huge life lead on one combo, the game is random.

It seems like every character in this game is a Carl clone. How does it work. I'm tempted to get P4A but I don't really like that play style.

Anyway...

Having the presence of mind to punish things properly is a skill- something to be honed in training and finally gained through experience.

While some people might pick up on things more naturally and with greater efficiency, this is true for everyone.

While I think games like MvC are a bit too much of an example of the "one touch" kill, I think games with defensive gambits like bursts and OMC is a lot more lenient in the matter and there should always be great risks when there is great rewards to be had.

In fact, it quite annoys me when things offer such a great reward but has little to no risk and you'll notice that characters with such tools are at best branded as top tier and at worst, broken.

Edited August 14, 2012 by BatousaiJ

[AchedSphinx]

I guess. Sadly, I like the Lambda combo better because I can actually SEE WTF is going on, whereas the Aigis combo is just like "Oh, yeah, some explosions?" It actually looks weird to me how little time there is between hits because it makes it feel like nothing has any 'impact' behind it.

That kinda sucks for me. What's the point in having another game with huge arse 50% combos? =/ It seems like everything is either a Street Fighter style "yeah, like a couple of hits together" game where the average combo damage is maybe 20%, or a BB/SG/P4/MvC explosionfest where one combo can do 40+% damage. Seems there has to be a compromise in there somewhere.

I agree with the first two statements.

Yes, that makes sense. The Lambda combo takes 24 seconds to complete, whereas the Aigis one, which does roughly the same amount of damage comparison wise, takes 11 seconds to complete. If I compared the notation for Lambda versus Aigis, Aigis combos are only about 6 or 7 moves long, whereas Lambda has 17 or so. The game doesn't have huge ass combos like Blazblue, they just do a lot of damage depending on the character and punish.

I think most fighting games make it so you can do a lot of damage if your opponent makes a mistake.

Just for fun I'll do the notation for Aigis compared to Lambda.

Aigis: FC 214AB, one more burst, 2C, j.C, j.C, 236CD, 214A, 236C, all out attack, 236236D, 214214C

Lambda: FC 214A > Gold Burst x 2 > 236C > 4B > 632146D > 5C[1] > 6C > 236D > 214D~C > 214D > 632146D > 6A > 2147D > 6A > 2147D > 6A > 2147D > 6A > 2C > j.DD > j.2DD > jc > j.2DD > j.DD > 632146D

It seems like every character in this game is a Carl clone. How does it work. I'm tempted to get P4A but I don't really like that play style.

Only Carl clone is S.Lab. Not many persona work in tandem with their character. For instance, the persona is used like a normal move instead of like a doll in that. Aigis doesn't really use her persona outside of stalling for time and in combos. Depends on the character.

[Agni]

As for myself, I'm really happy with the exposure the game has created, as the convention I was at this past weekend has many people interested in picking it up

Did that convention happen to be San Japan? If so, I was there too, and P4U seemed to be holding a much stonger crowd than BB did. Sadly enough, I didn't get to olay; was too busy getting blown up at BB.

[Airk]

I understand you took a lot of time to post this, and replying like this is kind of disrespectful.

Gee, thanks. I suppose this is better than BJ and the obligatory animated gif though.

However, you're really not accounting for a lot of variables. Mistakes and punishes can vary wildly. If I misspace a boring poke, and get CH'd by someone else's boring poke, that's probably not gonna be a serious punish -- you can expect BNB damage. But if I DP and you call that shit out, /that/ will result in those 60% combos he's talking about.

Yes, obviously "punish damage" only applies to situations where you can use a "punish combo" - by which we mean "a combo off the starter of your choice." That shouldn't even need to be explained, and I thought it was pretty self-evident.

The real take-home message is that you can't evaluate things like damage in a vacuum. Touch of death sounds ridiculous, until I tell you I need 150 meter, my burst, and an impossible hitconfirm after getting into your face. And 2000 bnb damage sounds shitty compared to that character over there, until you understand that I've got the best poke in the game by a wide margin, and hit people with it all day, or that I get absolutely obscene okizeme with four-way mixups straight back into the same shit over and over.

No, you can't, but then, all of this that you posted here is mostly irrelevant because it's character level stuff and way more specific than the level of the discussion. Obviously there are going to be differences between characters and some characters are going to do more damage than others and all "A combo does X%" numbers are going to be generalizations up to a point, but you can still draw conclusions from generalizations because most games don't vary so widely for them to be useless. I'm sure there ARE games where one character's max damage off anything is 20% and someone else's is 90%, but in general, for games that aren't completely broken, there's going to be some norm that you can expect.

There is one thing I'd like to yell at you for a bit more, though.

What you want here isn't a good game; it's a boring game, where everyone has to be roughly the same or someone will become broken in the flash of an eye. If everyone does 10% health off their bnb, then the person with the best poke is suddenly amazing because he hits everyone else so much more consistently. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Note: All hypothetical games are hypothetical. You'll note already if you've actually read what I've posted in this thread that I was looking for something between the "Street Fighter 4" level where most combos that don't involve an ultra do like 20% damage, and something in the BB/P4A zone where one good read can net you a 60% combo if you have the meter for it. The 10%/35% vs 30%/50% comparison was strictly to point out that, in fact, high damage doesn't necessarily lead mistakes meaning more - you can make mistakes meaningful in ways OTHER than taking 75% off someone's life bar, and I'd like to see more games designed around those sorts of concepts, because I feel like we're basically playing the same baseline "design" in all these games.

Also, I disagree that "random" is a meaningless term, or that I am overusing it. I have a very specific meaning in place for it - a game is "random" if results are weighted more towards single events than towards trends. Games that have very high damage numbers are weighted towards single events. Games which feature strong "slippery slopes" like powerful oki are weighted towards single events. Older school fighters with fewer options for monstrous damage and with few oki options other than high/low/throw/meaty mixup are more likely to reward trends.

Anyway, amateur game design hour is over, back to your regularly scheduled discussion of how cool P4A is.

Edit: Special mention for Dive Kick. It's rather a unique case, because ANY hit will get you the win, guaranteed. There is no 'weighting' here, because essentially, your round victories are your life bar and every round completely resets the situation and all mistakes are equal. It's a fascinating model, and while it seems to defy what I've stated here, it's more accurate to say that it is outside what is stated here.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Airk

[SkyKing]

Did that convention happen to be San Japan? If so, I was there too, and P4U seemed to be holding a much stonger crowd than BB did. Sadly enough, I didn't get to olay; was too busy getting blown up at BB.

Yeah, it was. I was there all 3 days with my brother. He was the Yukiko blowing everyone up, and I was there every now and then with my Red Naoto doing more blowing up if he wasn't there.

Most of the people there were new to the anime fighter, so it was fun explaining how stuff worked in P4A and just getting to know the new crowd of interests in general.

[Agni]

Oh hey, maybe I saw you then (I was there Saturday). I was the dude playing BB with a bad Platinum and Lambda--highlight of my day was getting blown up by this guy using a Red Noel. I think I saw your brother there.

Anyway, I'm glad that P4A can pull such attention.

[Wing]

hey i like bb!

[xntrikcat]

I'm wondering what the top players think of P4A so far. I like the fast pace but I'm a little undecided on whether I like the auto combo and f-action. They probably don't matter at high level of play where each player is being very judicious with every move (read: no mashing), but at the low no-fucks-given level of play, the system encourages very mindless play. (is that fair to say?)

Now, I ain't bitching, I love the game, but I worry a little that whenever I play randoms online I'll have to bait DPs all day forever and ever.

[Siefer]

Every fighting game has very mindless play at the lowest levels. Auto combo mashers really are not that big of a deal.

DPs are strong in this game, but at the lowest levels of play, they don't mash DP, they mash A. This is really no different than baiting ice cars all day in CT, baiting hell's fang all day, etc. You can (potentially) get a fat CH combo off of those baited DPs anyway.

If you're worried about losing to randoms, and are actually losing to randoms more than you think you should be, you're probably not as good as you think you are.

[BatousaiJ]

Now, I ain't bitching, I love the game, but I worry a little that whenever I play randoms online I'll have to bait DPs all day forever and ever.

Learn some good fatal combos.

After the 4th or so 5k+ fatal combo I land on people who like to rely on DP, they often just stop using it entirely.

Especially those silly Yu players.

Bait DP -> Dash under > Fatal combo, all day.

[Eshi]

I'm wondering what the top players think of P4A so far. I like the fast pace but I'm a little undecided on whether I like the auto combo and f-action. They probably don't matter at high level of play where each player is being very judicious with every move (read: no mashing), but at the low no-fucks-given level of play, the system encourages very mindless play. (is that fair to say?)

Now, I ain't bitching, I love the game, but I worry a little that whenever I play randoms online I'll have to bait DPs all day forever and ever.

AFAIK, every single R-Action except for Kanji's can be safe jumped or safe cross-uped on knockdown. Even characters with counter DP's will have their follow-ups whiff on a safe cross-up. Then there's zoning characters that don't even care about your DPs and characters with meaty persona attacks that will eat it instead.

Honestly, the more I think about the P4A system, the more impressed I am with how viable but counterable every mechanic is. I love this game.

[xntrikcat]

Every fighting game has very mindless play at the lowest levels. Auto combo mashers really are not that big of a deal.

I never asked whether it exists. Rather, I asked whether P4's system overly rewards it. In BB when a bad player mashes out it's likely he doesn't have execution to score a knockdown, or his combo will be heavily prorated. In P4, an auto combo does ~2k for most of the cast and it takes 0 execution, and that's effectively 1/4 to 1/5 of the HP bar. In BB, someone might like to mash DP but may not have the execution to actually 623x correctly. These are of no concern in P4, and that's a pretty big change for me.

Oh, and I'm not that great at FCs and I do lose to stupid things all the time. It's kind of my specialty.

Edit: FGs, but also FCs

Edited August 15, 2012 by xntrikcat

[AchedSphinx]

AFAIK, every single R-Action except for Kanji's can be safe jumped or safe cross-uped on knockdown. Even characters with counter DP's will have their follow-ups whiff on a safe cross-up. Then there's zoning characters that don't even care about your DPs and characters with meaty persona attacks that will eat it instead.

Honestly, the more I think about the P4A system, the more impressed I am with how viable but counterable every mechanic is. I love this game.

Elizabeth and those Anti-burst and Anti-DP mechanics. Yeah, long range normals can stop the whole DP spamming, and you can also bait it pretty easily at the lower levels. Once they learn they can eat a 5k+ damage combo of it, it'll stop. I just need to get better with Aigis before I can have such skill!

I think you can safe jump Kanji's if you mean simply jumping up and doing an overhead. But crossing over it, you won't be able to do that, and Kanji's spam the crap outta it cuz it adds Shock status. The DPs to worry about are Aki and Yu's, since they're air unblockable.

Overall, the game is fun. The irony is, I'm not getting mad at any of the losses, I'm more mad about how I can never complete combos. Learning happens every other game for me haha.

[Linear04]

It seems silly to have an ego for a game that just came out. At this stage, everybody is just starting to learn.

But I guess people want excuses for why they lost other than themselves.

real talk the only reason i lose in this game is because i only played it for a week

[Linear04]

I never asked whether it exists. Rather, I asked whether P4's system overly rewards it. In BB when a bad player mashes out it's likely he doesn't have execution to score a knockdown, or his combo will be heavily prorated. In P4, an auto combo does ~2k for most of the cast and it takes 0 execution, and that's effectively 1/4 to 1/5 of the HP bar. In BB, someone might like to mash DP but may not have the execution to actually 623x correctly. These are of no concern in P4, and that's a pretty big change for me.

Oh, and I'm not that great at FCs and I do lose to stupid things all the time. It's kind of my specialty.

Edit: FGs, but also FCs

all auto combos are >2k damage, and in this game there are things far more important than damage such as spacing and setups

the only reward in autocombos are the fact that it builds burst and meter at the expense of pushing towards corner, oki setups or some other stuff, theyre not very rewarding at all if theyre the only combos you are using

[Jyosua]

I must be defective, because I don't really feel the difference much at all. None of this "everything feels tighter" or "oh wow, so much less hitstop" or...anything, really. Maybe I'm not hardcore enough, or too old or something, but this is all just not registering for me. I guess "requires proper meter management for high damage combos" means "doesn't have Extend Ragna in it", but otherwise? Really? Maybe it's because my BB character requires TWO different meters in order to do good damage?

Frankly, I can't honestly understand why someone would like P4U and not BB unless they really need/like the accessability features or the persona gimmick. Or I guess the different system mechanics. The games feel very similar, except BB has more variety in character selection, and seems, at the moment, to be a bit more combo heavy - though I gather that P4A will be featuring plenty of 50% combos as people get better at it, which is a bit of a disappointment. I would've liked a lower damage, less combo heavy game.

Still enjoying P4A, but not buying into all the arguments about why it's the second coming.

Hitstun/hitstop is definitely shorter, and since BB was my first real fighting game, I have to agree with Aeternum: I too feel like BB was holding my hand. Honestly, I like P4A better than BBCS, but I still love BB in general. You can be sure as shit that I'll be right back on the BB bandwagon once Chrono Phantasm comes out. I think BB has better combo potential, but I enjoy the combo mechanics in this game a lot... they're fun and just the right length.

And 2000 bnb damage sounds shitty compared to that character over there, until you understand that I've got the best poke in the game by a wide margin, and hit people with it all day

Sounds like Titsuru, which is exactly the same reason that I think she's a good character, but not "ZOMG S TIER? I'M GONNA DIE" like people make her out to be. S tier pokes yes, instant death for everyone, no.

all auto combos are >2k damage, and in this game there are things far more important than damage such as spacing and setups

the only reward in autocombos are the fact that it builds burst and meter at the expense of pushing towards corner, oki setups or some other stuff, theyre not very rewarding at all if theyre the only combos you are using

Mitsuru's non-super-cancelled autocombo is 1.4k...