Halcyone3 Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 Heavily implied? More like outright stated. Lol I don't remember the details, so I went with the more non-committal approach @Chao: I guess it depends on whether Lambda was experimented upon before or prior to tempering. If before, Noel is lucky not to remember. If after, she was never tortured like Lambda. Well..... wasn't Noel tampered? I mean, she is technically complete right? So if it happened before or prior, she definitely went through it. Unless that's a typo and you meant "before or AFTER", in which case, there's a chance Mikazuchi carpet bombed the place between the tampering and the "experimenting". EDIT: you probably meant after, so yea, guess there's a chance she didn't go through it.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 I'm sure Tokkan can answer this; If Hakumen knew what was going on with Tsubaki and knew what she would transform into, why did he allow it to happen? Does it have to do with his CS bad ending or just allowing Jin to take care of his shit? I know Hakumen stopped Ragna from destroying Izayoi, saying it wasn't his job to do so and delays Tsubaki until Jin arrived. Does he believe that only Jin can truly save Tsubaki?
mAc Chaos Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 In CS he decided to leave it to Jin too. I think he doesn't think of that Tsubaki as "his" Tsubaki so it's not his place to do what Jin should.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 So basically Hakumen is playing the role of a guardian with regards to Jin and Tsubaki.
Chaoschao222 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 But in the end, we all know he's gonna be jelly of himself and NTR Tsubaki away
BladeOfJustice7 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 It is funny how it's typically Hakumen who has been coming to the rescue of Tsubaki more than Jin himself lol. Also I guess Azrael means that S7/Kokonoe is no longer interested in Hakumen, since they got a super powerhouse of their own now right?
mAc Chaos Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Azrael isn't really related to Kokonoe. I think he got released by higher ups that Kokonoe doesn't see eye to eye with.
Alpha to Omega Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Heavily implied? More like outright stated. We see Lambda being experimented upon and actually electrocuted at one point because the scientists are like lol she's tough, she was made by Relius Clover and her body can totally take it. Guess she couldn't. The older scientist in CTR opening talks about it, but I can't remember what he says and I can't check right now. @Chao: I guess it depends on whether Lambda was experimented upon before or prior to tempering. If before, Noel is lucky not to remember. If after, she was never tortured like Lambda. The scientist in CT says that there hesitation rendered Lambda-11 useless, which is why he decided to cut a whole bunch of phases and start tempering Noel right away. (In the Reconstruction they actually messed up in the dub and had him say subject 12 for that line instead of 11.)
Halcyone3 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 It is funny how it's typically Hakumen who has been coming to the rescue of Tsubaki more than Jin himself lol. Makes sense, you don't really know the value of what you have until you lose it. Jin may care for Tsubaki in his own way, but Hakumen's behavior just shows how much Jin takes her for granted.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Makes sense, you don't really know the value of what you have until you lose it. Jin may care for Tsubaki in his own way, but Hakumen's behavior just shows how much Jin takes her for granted. I think Hakumen is trying to tell his past self "Yo dumbass, stop the faggotry tend to yo girl" or somethin like that.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Makes sense, you don't really know the value of what you have until you lose it. Jin may care for Tsubaki in his own way, but Hakumen's behavior just shows how much Jin takes her for granted. This is very true. I think Hakumen is trying to tell his past self "Yo dumbass, stop the faggotry tend to yo girl" or somethin like that. Kinda funny how someone as blunt as him has been beating around saying that to Jin. Maybe he'll finally say it in CP. Speaking of which, they've never explicitly stated Hakumen is at 20% power still outside of CT's Material Collection, I know power levels are arbitrary but I think Hakumen must get access to most if not more of his abilities now that Rachel is observing him.
Vulcan422 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) I'd say with each game he gets around a 10-15% increase in power. It would be quite badass if, through some Power of Order BS or Observer BS like being Observed a lot, he managed to eventually gain 100% power and break away from the Boundary's bonds, becoming "real". Edited December 14, 2012 by Vulcan422
Nora Kisaragi Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 So, at this point, I am pretty much 90% convinced that Ragna the Bloodedge is a Sector Seven creation. Stay with me for a second. I ran this theory through a couple of people and they're pretty swayed by the facts, but perhaps someone here better versed than I in the plot can weigh on. First off, what started this all is the unexplained tattoo on Ragna's neck that says "E5". Could it be that Ragna is Epsilon 5? However, his tattoo does not use Kanji, the standard murakumo unit tattoo uses Kanji, nay, Ragna's uses Latin. Latin. Not Kanji, which seems to stray away from the theory that Ragna is a Murakumo Unit. So let's look at the facts for a second: *Kokonoe's aunt was at the church where Jin/Ragna/Saya grew up *The black beast remains were buried at the church *Kokonoe hates her father for some reason *Kokonoe has the ability to speak inside of Ragna's head, telepathically, as evidenced by the True End of Calamity Trigger, when Ragna fights Hakumen ""Ragna: How are you speaking inside my head?"" ""Kokonoe: Don't worry about it."" *Kokonoe was able to easily replace Ragna's arm using the remains of Lambda. I'm going to go with the theory that Kokonoe's father, or someone in her family, used the remains of the black beast to create Ragna, perhaps as a "Sector Seven Alternative" to the Murakumo Units. Their own personal version of the, "prime field devices", as it were, continuing the science vs magic theme even more. So let's talk a bit about some of the less subtle aspects. Namely, Color. Color plays a big part of BlazBlue, as you know. I mean, at Calamity Trigger, the NOL was portrayed as blue people, and they were evil. So blue = bad, thus, the Character Select theme was called BLUE Beating, Ragna's color was made Red and his themesong was made Rebellion to contrast with the red vs blue theme (yet he has a blazblue power. go fig'). Tager, who is also against the NOL, is also Red, so much so that he is called the 'Red Devil'. Huh? Both Ragna and Tager have red themes going on with their pursuit of the NOL? Somehow, it seems less bizarre that tager and ragna had special battle quotes in CT. So there's that too. However, if Ragna is a sector seven creation, I don't believe that Tager is in on the know. It would probably only be Kokonoe that knows. And of all the theories I heard so far, nobody has a 100% positive explanation for how Kokonoe was able to talk to Ragna's head in CT's ending. Nobody has an explanation to that. Nobody. So here's mine. Ragna was a creation of Kokonoe's family. Hell, maybe Ragna himself knows. He'd be stupid not to know. He even admits in CS's true ending that "God knows whose soul this really is". *On a side note...if this is true. Ragna is completely fucked as a character. I mean think about it. He lost both of his arms, he would be a creation of the black beast or whatever, he got bit by a vampire and became a half vampire half whatever the fawk he is. Now all he needs is to die and then be re--wait that already happened.* However...I have not seen the wheel of fortune because it isn't released over here, so I haven't seen phase shift or any of the other side materials so maybe those weigh in on this issue a bit. Anyone got anythin'?
YoYoCheese Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 So let's talk a bit about some of the less subtle aspects. Namely, Color. Color plays a big part of BlazBlue, as you know. I mean, at Calamity Trigger, the NOL was portrayed as blue people, and they were evil. So blue = bad, thus, the Character Select theme was called BLUE Beating, Ragna's color was made Red and his themesong was made Rebellion to contrast with the red vs blue theme (yet he has a blazblue power. go fig'). Tager, who is also against the NOL, is also Red, so much so that he is called the 'Red Devil'. Huh? Both Ragna and Tager have red themes going on with their pursuit of the NOL? Somehow, it seems less bizarre that tager and ragna had special battle quotes in CT. So there's that too. I remember Mori mentioning at some point that blue is meant to represent order and red is supposed to represent chaos. I don't remember where he said it though. *On a side note...if this is true. Ragna is completely fucked as a character. I mean think about it. He lost both of his arms, he would be a creation of the black beast or whatever, he got bit by a vampire and became a half vampire half whatever the fawk he is. Now all he needs is to die and then be re--wait that already happened.* Ragna is not a vampire. Rachel only bit him in one of the alternate timelines.
Nora Kisaragi Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) Jubei created Ragna? Are you serious? Well it obviously wasn't Kokonoe who was just a child at the time. Think about this: Kokonoe got her smarts from somewhere in the gene pool and it sure as hell wasn't Nine, she got her magic from Nine. So, I don't think it's that unbelievable that Jubei could have done it. And if it holds true, it would make Jubei's decision to take ragna in as his own that much more believable. Who knows really. God knows Mori is just improvising the plot as he goes along anyway. Ragna is not a vampire. Rachel only bit him in one of the alternate timelines. That's weird. Doesn't Jin have a fetish with "killing him again", or did he stop using that phrasing after CT? I mean, i can't think of a way for Jin to have killed him the first time if he wasn't vampirized. These alternate timelines man. At least they're gone with CP. things will be a bit more comphrehensible now. Edited December 14, 2012 by Nora Kisaragi
Chaoschao222 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Kokonoe got her smarts from somewhere in the gene pool and it sure as hell wasn't Nine, she got her magic from Nine. Magic confirmed for dumb.
mAc Chaos Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Killing him -> cutting his arm off and burning down the village That whole "she only bit Ragna once" though I'm not so sure about. I always thought she did it at the beginning of each timeline to keep him alive long enough when his arm got cut off. Otherwise, he just bleeds to death in the rain.
Nora Kisaragi Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Magic confirmed for dumb. Come on now. It's pretty obvious Mori's been going for the whole 'Magic vs Science' theme with this franchise since day 1. Jubei being a smart science type and Nine being the magic type would only further support that theme Mori is trying to convey. Ragna's magic arm and science arm is another example of that.
Chaoschao222 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 And that suggests Nine couldn't pass "smart genes" how?
SolxBaiken Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 (edited) Wait...why do people keep saying Ragna lost BOTH of his arms, the Azure is in his right arm no? Which is the arm that got lopped off and replaced right? Which is the same arm that got blown up restoring Noel from Mu mode right? All this is why he's essentially a south paw (because heaven forbid your sword arm and power arm be the same!) or am I not remembering right...? EDIT: Also genetics have little to do with the potential of the child, just a basis, the saying "the gene pool throws you a wild card" doesn't exist for nothing raw intellect doesn't transfer like that, and it's completely feasible that 2 "dumb" people could produce a "smart" child. EDIT2: Ok lol nevermind, the Azure is in his right hand, but he did use his left arm, but I thought his pseudo arm was the one that was lopped off and thus where the Azure was attached and thus why Kokonoe could easily restore it since it was just a prosthetic, BUT I GUESS NOT! F this story = w= Edited December 14, 2012 by SolxBaiken
psycofang2 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 she thought the arm ragna got blown up was the azure but it was his other natural arm. now he was 2 fake arms, thats where she got confused. flying meat trucks.
harmless kitten Posted December 15, 2012 Posted December 15, 2012 From the depths of the Continuum Shift Speculation thread, behold: the word used in the mc is 初期, which means initial. the exact phrase is 初期のループでラグナを助けるために生涯一度だけ吸血を試みた。So the translation would be "In the initial loop for the sake of saving Ragna she tried sucking blood for only once in her lifetime." note lifetime here is 生涯, and it means one's existence till death, so rachel only sucked blood once in her entire lifetime time, complete with loops. It's on page 61 if anyone is curious. Kokonoe is like...what, 80 something years old? To be born before Nine died, she must have been born during or very shortly after the Dark War. She actually goes to the ruins of the church in the S7 sidestory (which takes place at about oh 2193-2195), and talks to Celica's grave. Kokonoe speaks to people through a communication device (for Tager and Lambda) and some sort of ars/magic/SCIENCE thing for other people. Tsubaki realizes it's a sensory ars or whatever. She's just relaying the words directly into the person's brain. I think she just hates Jubei because he probably ran out on her or because she partially blames him for Nine's death. Or even something completely different that only they know about. Ragna has "No. 5" written on him, or "No. 05" (sorry I can't remember which one right now...). Not E5. It's also just above a symbol that reoccurs A LOT in the series. The CTSMC does talk about artificial children with "Beast Genes," genes extracted from the corpse of the Black Beast. There is a very good chance Ragna is one of these. But using the corpse of the creature that sparked the development of ars magus seems...kind of much, even for Sector Seven. Ragna is very much aware that he is an artificial human. Terumi is a little irritated after his insinuations, because he can tell that Ragna already knows and Jubei must have told him.
Recommended Posts