[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion (Pre-Console Release)

[BladeOfJustice7]

Who is dogura?

[Skye]

You guys, I have an important question: Is Skye the Arakune mod the same Skye from r/a/dio?

No.

[StarGazer]

Who is dogura?

Just a Robo ky god http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0YMla3rd8c

[YukiBlue]

Who is dogura?

Last time I checked wasn't he the Rank 1 Bison in AE? Holy shit that would be ace.

If I had to get serious and assess Azrael as a character. I'd be pretty confident to say that he looks like a character that is more limited to the skill of the player rather than the character itself. We have a lot of stuff to work with and I'm sure that as a culmination, all of these tools will just lead to a ton of .5 matchups for and against him which we can easily work around.

Azrael looks like he has a strong neutral game. I still can't get over Gustaf, 6A and even his 5C. I don't think he will struggle there.

I'd say his weakness is his lack of Oki. I've never seen any way to force your opponent to despect wakeup aside from 3D after knockdown.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Just a Robo ky god http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0YMla3rd8c

He's beastly. I hope it's actually him, Azrael has yet to a "a player" yet. Kagetsu is trying but he's not *it* yet. Every character has a *player* which revolutionizes the way the character is played and how to play them optimally.

Spark with Hakumen as of CS2 in EVO.

Zakiyama with regards to Hazama.

Goro Makoto.

Some I could name at the top of my head.

[zeth07]

What does Azrael have for tk wakeup? I always see him end air combos with a power smack that puts a weakpoint on. Seems like it'd be a viable anti-360 tk wake-up for him.

Obviously everything against Tager is a risk at close range but you gotta just nut up and try something or you'll never escape. Because

Tager don't care

Not really sure what you're talking about.

Meh, he has tools for pretty much every situation it seems so most matchups will likely be skill matchups at worst so maybe a 4.5-5.5 or 1 or 2 4-6 matchups. Was looking at win rate data against specific characters but the results are pretty varied. On a high note though, the 12th ranked Azrael has his name as Dogura and is 11th dan atm. Hoping he is THE Dogura.

Some of the match-ups do seem worse than others if you look at the top Azrael's match-ups. Of course most of the time they are still on the positive side but there has to be a difference between match-ups that they win 80-90% of the time and ones that they only win 50-60% of the time.

Ex. the top ranked Azrael,

69% against Jin

43% against Taokaka

59% against Tager

43% against Carl

41% against Hakumen

56% against Platinum

69% against Amane

All others are above 70%.

Then #2 Azrael, Himajin has:

59% against Litchi

46% against Hazama

All others are above 70%.

Then you look at the actual top ranked players who play other characters and see that their match-up records against Azrael are horrible for him by those standards.

He's beastly. I hope it's actually him, Azrael has yet to a "a player" yet. Kagetsu is trying but he's not *it* yet. Every character has a *player* which revolutionizes the way the character is played and how to play them optimally.

Spark with Hakumen as of CS2 in EVO.

Zakiyama with regards to Hazama.

Goro Makoto.

Some I could name at the top of my head.

Have you watched Himajin play? He's currently the #2 ranked Azrael. I think you're exaggerating the whole "revolutionizes the way the character is played", but there are certainly really good Azrael players already so I don't really agree with you at all.

[MetalMaelstrom]

I think he's talking about j.D, which is a normal and not a TK-able air special. The only air normal he has that really alters his momentum is j.2C. Regardless, I don't think either option is the best idea to meaty with.

Also Kagetsu is gomikuzu garbage. At least he was a garbage Hazama player. There are a few players at chariot that you probably shouldn't pay attention to. Himajin is pretty beastly, imo, though some of Kubo's vids showed really good use of Azrael's mobility options and spacing.

[Eternal Blaze]

Yeah Himajin is my current favorite Az to watch, he's pretty smart and uses WP really well, and he does some pretty interesting stuff that i dont see other Azrael players do

A~zunyan is my other fave, he tries new shit but sadly drops alot of it lol

Edited January 1, 2013 by Eternal Blaze

[LegendaryRath]

I've been thinking about a lot of stuff for Azrael lately, especially after seeing combos that apply both weakpoints without scud. I'm hoping that those combos end up being practical (not something so incredibly difficult that makes it only have a place in combo videos) hopefully a lot like Bang's 3-4 seal combos. In that last combo video there was one or two combos that started with one weakpoint, used it, then applied both of them. Thinking about it, it might even be possible to use both weakpoints in one combo and get them both back. The wheels are turning.

[Lucalibur]

Thinking about it, it might even be possible to use both weakpoints in one combo and get them both back. The wheels are turning.

Possibly. The combo video showed following up table flip(which adds a lower weakpoint) without having a weakpoint beforehand to be possible, so if you have both weakpoints applied when you start the combo, going into the normal combo route>2C>3D(Lower weakpoint used)>Table Flip(Might require something beforehand, reapplies lower weakpoint)>stuff>air stuff>J.D(Uses upper weakpoint)>air stuff>J.D(Applies upper weakpoint) might be possible.

Of course, this is just me theory fighting. The combo might be too long and the new hitstun decay might not allow it off weaker starters, but I don't doubt combos that start with both weakpoints can add both back.

[LegendaryRath]

There was also a combo where he went into valiant to the corner and then got both weakpoints from there. Most combos that utilize both weakpoints eventually go into valiant anyway, so it could be possible that way.

[Lucalibur]

Humm, true enough. I would not be surprised if we start seeing combos that start with only 1 weakpoint and end with both given the technology that was found in that video.

[zeth07]

Just want to mention that part of the reasoning for getting both weakpoints is to do big damaging combos off them. Assuming it is possible to get both back in the same combo you used them, you run into the possible "issue" of how much damage are you actually doing. Since it is mostly just theory at this point, we can't really say, but I have to imagine there will be a damage sacrifice.

With both weakpoints applied, off 5B starter he gets ~4,800 meterless, while still getting at least one weakpoint reapplied of your choosing. Then it becomes a personal decision of how much damage are you willing to give up for that other weakpoint to get reapplied. He can get ~3,000+ meterless with just the upper weakpoint applied off 5A, so presumably more off 5B. So ~1,800+ extra damage with the additional weakpoint. You would be deciding how much below that amount is worth getting the other weakpoint.

My other question would what happens if you use up a weakpoint and then reapply the same weakpoint with another move, what would happen if you then did a different move that used up the weakpoint again? Would the combo still get extended?

Take this combo as an example:

-UW 3C > 22C > 5B > 2C > 6D > 236D > 5A > j.A > j.C > j.2D = 3,214 DM

He uses up the UW with 6D, but immediately reapplies it with 236D (Valiant), but ends the combo with j.2D to get both weakpoints. So what would happen if he would've done j.D ender in that scenario? Is that just a case of proration would've kicked in so he wouldn't be able to do anything with it anyway? But any other time using up a weakpoint like j.D mid-combo allows for an additional aerial combo (some combos plainly have 5B>Aerial*2).

I'm going to assume this is a case of the combo proration will still be affected even if it seems like it should be possible in theory.

Humm, true enough. I would not be surprised if we start seeing combos that start with only 1 weakpoint and end with both given the technology that was found in that video.

There are already combos like that......in that very video no less....

[C0R]

Not really sure what you're talking about.

Some of the match-ups do seem worse than others if you look at the top Azrael's match-ups. Of course most of the time they are still on the positive side but there has to be a difference between match-ups that they win 80-90% of the time and ones that they only win 50-60% of the time.

Ex. the top ranked Azrael,

69% against Jin

43% against Taokaka

59% against Tager

43% against Carl

41% against Hakumen

56% against Platinum

69% against Amane

All others are above 70%.

Then #2 Azrael, Himajin has:

59% against Litchi

46% against Hazama

All others are above 70%.

Then you look at the actual top ranked players who play other characters and see that their match-up records against Azrael are horrible for him by those standards.

Have you watched Himajin play? He's currently the #2 ranked Azrael. I think you're exaggerating the whole "revolutionizes the way the character is played", but there are certainly really good Azrael players already so I don't really agree with you at all.

What kills those charts for the most parts in terms of applicability is the 'who' aspect. If there's a really good Carl player who dominates that local scene where the respective player plays, it's going to create an outlier in the matchup strata, where after careful analysis, the matchup could even be in Azrael's favor to some degree.

[zeth07]

What kills those charts for the most parts in terms of applicability is the 'who' aspect. If there's a really good Carl player who dominates that local scene where the respective player plays, it's going to create an outlier in the matchup strata, where after careful analysis, the matchup could even be in Azrael's favor to some degree.

I wouldn't really say that "kills" those charts because if you take a large enough sample or compare enough of them you can get a GENERAL idea of how good or bad the match-ups are. Not to mention the fact that anyone who has been watching a good bit of BBCP videos can probably figure out which characters seem really good already, which in turn can give you an idea of who could be a tougher match-up.

It's not like I'm saying they should be directly taken as match-up charts. I mean just look at Dora's match-ups, and tell me you can't interpret certain match-ups are PROBABLY not entirely in Bang's favor, knowing what we know from previous games with those match-ups and what we have now in BBCP.

[Lucalibur]

There are already combos like that......in that very video no less....

Oh, my mistake. I watched the video back when it was first released and didn't do it again, so I didn't remembered all combos in it.

You raise a fair point too. How much damage do we have to sacrifice to reapply both weakpoints in the combo is worth taking into consideration, otherwise we will simply be doing combo video stuff that is less practical and more awesome.

I also remember this match where the Azrael player was mashing 2D when the enemy refused to get up, and he applied the lower weakpoint about 2 times before the Jin player finally decided to get up. With that in mind, it doesn't seems to have a limit as to how many weak points you can apply per combo, and as long hitstun decay doens't ends it, you can probably keep going.

[LegendaryRath]

I would assume that using the same weakpoint more than once would kill proration or end the combo outright, which is why we saw j.2D instead of j.D.

Regarding the loss in damage, it's obvious that you would sacrifice some for the sake of getting both weakpoints. Until we can play the game for ourselves, there's really no way to telling how much damage we would give up to apply a second weakpoint. I'm willing to argue that, at least in some cases, we will get very near the original damage. Looking back at the most recent combo video, a forward grab midscreen got about 3.2k if I recall correctly HERE. A forward grab combo that applied both weakpoints managed to actually get slightly more damage, about 3.3k HERE.

All I'm saying is that it might be worth it. regardless of what you or I think, it's certainly nice to have the option. It's sort of like the Hakumen debate regarding whether or not to OD at the start of the round.

[MetalMaelstrom]

I think that combo is probably too long to be optimal, honestly. Usually, you just have the choice to blast them with high P2 moves at the start of the combo and then end with more damage by using meter (either using crush trigger or BHS) in order to go for damage, or doing something that consumes and re-applies the same weakpoint for more advantageous neutral game, post-oki (which his is practically non-existent outside of "ZA TERRAA" or lol teleport dash). If no weak-points are applied, you can go for one or both depending on your starter.

To address why you would re-apply the same weakpoint, it doesn't necessarily need to be the same one, it really just comes down to how you want to condition your opponent.

Stay patriotic, niggas.

[Eternal Blaze]

Yeah having a WP applied is practically a mind-game of its own (if a L wp is applied opponent would be more cautious about them and try to not get hit by them) so having both on after a combo is worth it imo even if it sacrifices a bit of damage..

but as mentioned before we cant say for sure till we have the game in our hands. Cant wait to go in the lab ;C

Rachel is interesting enough to amuse me till BBCP (i think..)

*goes back to training mode*

[YukiBlue]

Yeah I'm back to pocket Valk since Extend is genuinely the most boring iteration yet. Too much CS, Need more iChr0N00xxPh4NT4SM4xiXxx

[MetalMaelstrom]

Azrael needs Gustaf feint, imo.

[YukiBlue]

A Feint would suit him well, I agree. Though I think a Valiant charger feint would be better, it has a much more recognisable animation.

Edited January 4, 2013 by YukiBlue

[stickystaines]

Valiant feint would be great

"EAT A D- nah just messing"

[YukiBlue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZQVNgnP1gc

Azrael v Litchi.

I didn;t post this in the video thread because it's simply 1 video. AND, This video shows a competent Litchi vs an Azrael that knows the Litchi matchup. We were talking about how this matchup might play for us, but im pretty sure that it's skill based. Give it a watch, great match from an Azrael that knows how to fight Litchi.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Pretty much as everyone said, it's a patient matchup. You can to take your time, but like Hakumen, Azrael has answers to Litchi's staff oki/pressure. But yes, his lack of range hurts him a little. But luckily her staff gives him Phalanx cannons.