[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion (Pre-Console Release)

[zeth07]

I just want everyone to know, once this game comes out on consoles (maybe even before), I want to focus HEAVILY on the Match-up Threads for Azrael. Regretfully one of the things lacking in the Bang forums and presumably some other character forums are the match-up threads. These in my opinion are THE MOST IMPORTANT threads for a character, or at least a character that can't just do whatever the hell they want most of the time.

Azrael seems like a good character but I have a feeling certain match-ups will be rough not to mention him being a new character. So with that said, I want "us" to have as much information as possible on figuring out the match-ups instead of just saying "this is a bad match-up" and dealing with it. I don't get to play the game nearly as much as I would like, and I know some people out there play A LOT more than me so it is harder for me to figure out a match-up from just pure experience. If there is a lot of information on a match-up I can instead read it and understand it quickly compared to having to play hundreds/thousands of matches to figure out the small details of a match.

Here is a quote that was posted in the "Frame Data" Article a while back that I feel is applicable for match-ups as well:

"Any of you ever heard of Buktooth? Let me paraphrase him:"

"Match experience can replace knowledge, but knowledge can often let you come to conclusions that would otherwise require match experience."

Here's that Frame Data article if you haven't already read it. > HERE

So instead of just myself posting any relevant information I know for a match-up, I am strongly encouraging EVERYONE to post any useful information on a match-up or your opinions about what you should and shouldn't do in a match-up. I don't care how good or bad you are, as long as the information is accurate and useful. Also, if you ever have any questions about a match-up feel free to ask so that it encourages discussion about the match-up itself.

I'm not sure when the match-up threads will be made since I'm sure the other mods don't think they'll be needed until 99% of us can actually play the game. I will say that if you have any interest at all in the match-up threads that you should use Notepad or whatever word processor and make some useful notes about any match-ups that you can so that whenever those threads get made you can just post whatever information you have. I plan to go through a bunch of videos for each character and try and do this myself whenever I get the chance. Any help would be appreciated. Not to discourage that kind of discussion now, but I would rather that information NOT get lost in this thread.

TL:DR = Match-up Threads are IMPORTANT.

[MetalMaelstrom]

Are you particular as to how the OP looks in terms of formatting or uniformity? Or would you rather it just be a conversation with an updated OP? I would also be restrictive on what counts as "information" if I were you, lest we tread into the dreaded land of theory-fighting (though I have been guilty of this myself already).

I agree though, there's a lot of potential match-up specific stuff with Azrael, especially considering his move/tool set.

[zeth07]

Are you particular as to how the OP looks in terms of formatting or uniformity? Or would you rather it just be a conversation with an updated OP? I would also be restrictive on what counts as "information" if I were you, lest we tread into the dreaded land of theory-fighting (though I have been guilty of this myself already).

I agree though, there's a lot of potential match-up specific stuff with Azrael, especially considering his move/tool set.

Well in terms of formatting it would be organized in some way, but the way things seem to be going lately I don't know if they plan to keep all the threads as universal as possible in terms of the OPs. The first post of the match-up threads WILL be kept up to date and organized with whatever information is helpful to the match. I am going to try my best to keep everything as up to date as possible, with as much information as possible, so anyone picking up Azrael knows exactly what they need to know.

In terms of the match-up thread discussion itself, it can be an on-going conversation or if any one person decides to give a uniformed breakdown post of their experience that is fine too. No matter how we look at it, a match-up thread IS going to cover "theory fighting" because that more or less is how you would try to break the match down. Just as long it isn't some back and forth theory fighting about what each character will do after each move to each other.

When I say actual information I mean things like legit punishes or how to avoid something entirely or character specific combo information that should be known. I want to avoid any misinformation or things that are unreliable or not entirely useful. I'd like everyone who posts to do some "fact checking" before they post their information to make sure it is legit. If someone is unsure about something, that's when they can ask and it can be discussed.

I don't want the match-up threads to have 0 or 1 or 2 posts in the entire thread like some do.

[MetalMaelstrom]

Azrael vs Azrael match-up thread: backdash x N

[BladeOfJustice7]

TL:DR = Match-up Threads are IMPORTANT.

I've been saying the same thing for the Hakumen forums, I really want them to be improved this time around.

Since we're guilty of having quite a few dead threads.

Well in terms of formatting it would be organized in some way, but the way things seem to be going lately I don't know if they plan to keep all the threads as universal as possible in terms of the OPs. The first post of the match-up threads WILL be kept up to date and organized with whatever information is helpful to the match. I am going to try my best to keep everything as up to date as possible, with as much information as possible, so anyone picking up Azrael knows exactly what they need to know.

In terms of the match-up thread discussion itself, it can be an on-going conversation or if any one person decides to give a uniformed breakdown post of their experience that is fine too. No matter how we look at it, a match-up thread IS going to cover "theory fighting" because that more or less is how you would try to break the match down. Just as long it isn't some back and forth theory fighting about what each character will do after each move to each other.

When I say actual information I mean things like legit punishes or how to avoid something entirely or character specific combo information that should be known. I want to avoid any misinformation or things that are unreliable or not entirely useful. I'd like everyone who posts to do some "fact checking" before they post their information to make sure it is legit. If someone is unsure about something, that's when they can ask and it can be discussed.

I don't want the match-up threads to have 0 or 1 or 2 posts in the entire thread like some do.

Might I suggest one of the things I want to implement in our forums?

First post having two videos of high level play, how basically "how to play the matchup perfectly" and "how to get bodied" in each matchup. Just for players to see the difference in how to properly play the match up and how to play it terribly.

That along with the standard things like what and how to punish things, what to watch out for, what to avoid, what their gameplan is, what your gameplan should be.

Azrael vs Azrael match-up thread: backdash>gustaf x N

Fixed.

[zeth07]

I've been saying the same thing for the Hakumen forums, I really want them to be improved this time around.

Since we're guilty of having quite a few dead threads.

Might I suggest one of the things I want to implement in our forums?

First post having two videos of high level play, how basically "how to play the matchup perfectly" and "how to get bodied" in each matchup. Just for players to see the difference in how to properly play the match up and how to play it terribly.

That along with the standard things like what and how to punish things, what to watch out for, what to avoid, what their gameplan is, what your gameplan should be.

I agree, a good display of the match-up should be included as an example at least. I want the match-up threads to be as in-depth as possible with information because that is what they are there for.

[LegendaryRath]

(I'm not going to bother quoting every post for the last couple of hours, This just just general talk)

I couldn't agree more that we need good matchup threads. It would be incredibly helpful for everyone, including the people working to make them spectacular. Since I've got pretty much no life as it is, I'll be able to commit some serious time to the forums if it would prove helpful.

Blade, Before I even read your post I was thinking about videos as well. I hadn't considered showing high and low level play (although, I think that's a fantastic idea). If Zeth wouldn't mind (or better yet, wants me to) I have an idea I could help with. Since you're planning on keeping the OP up to date with all of the important factual information (Thanks for that btw, I can't stress how big of a deal that is. Seriously has anyone else ever been pissed off looking through the OP and it's blank?) Would it be a good idea to make a video that includes all of that information with video examples of everything? This would have to be after the game has been out long enough to amass plenty of information.

Pretend they did something like this for the bang forums. For the Valkenhein match-up the video could mention that the usual bnb 5A > 5B > 2B > 6C > j.D > ... will not work and then show why. It could then explain and show how to use a replacement bnb that would work instead. Obviously the video could include all of the other useful info that you thought was important.

It would probably be a lot of work, but as I said, I'm game and I've got tons of time. I'll also probably get the game day 1 (assuming that it's not region locked).

Also, I'm down to help with anything else and the exchange of useful information.

[zeth07]

(I'm not going to bother quoting every post for the last couple of hours, This just just general talk)

I couldn't agree more that we need good matchup threads. It would be incredibly helpful for everyone, including the people working to make them spectacular. Since I've got pretty much no life as it is, I'll be able to commit some serious time to the forums if it would prove helpful.

Blade, Before I even read your post I was thinking about videos as well. I hadn't considered showing high and low level play (although, I think that's a fantastic idea). If Zeth wouldn't mind (or better yet, wants me to) I have an idea I could help with. Since you're planning on keeping the OP up to date with all of the important factual information (Thanks for that btw, I can't stress how big of a deal that is. Seriously has anyone else ever been pissed off looking through the OP and it's blank?) Would it be a good idea to make a video that includes all of that information with video examples of everything? This would have to be after the game has been out long enough to amass plenty of information.

Pretend they did something like this for the bang forums. For the Valkenhein match-up the video could mention that the usual bnb 5A > 5B > 2B > 6C > j.D > ... will not work and then show why. It could then explain and show how to use a replacement bnb that would work instead. Obviously the video could include all of the other useful info that you thought was important.

It would probably be a lot of work, but as I said, I'm game and I've got tons of time. I'll also probably get the game day 1 (assuming that it's not region locked).

Also, I'm down to help with anything else and the exchange of useful information.

Videos that breakdown the match-up information and show the actual examples would definitely be welcomed. Hopefully we can do this kind of content asap after it comes out to help new players get into the game.

I'd also recommend / welcome players who want to make video commentaries or even stream actual match-up analysis of recorded matches. Preferably high level Japanese matches and not your own, and hopefully you as a player are experienced in the game as well. This is one instance where I wouldn't want "just anyone" putting out that kind of information.

There's a difference between someone experienced like Jiyuna streaming and talking about matches, and some random who barely knows what they are doing themselves trying to teach people about a match-up. Hopefully people know what I mean. That's not to discourage players from doing it but for what that content is, it is best that it is done by "experienced" players however subjective that may be.

Anything else as long as it is effective strategies and accurate I don't care who it comes from since we're all playing Azrael to some degree (or even the players fighting against him).

[BladeOfJustice7]

I would say make someone like Legend make the matchup threads, or someone else you know who will be long term dedicated to the character. When the mod makes it, it puts a lot of pressure on him to solely update the OP, but if someone else does it, then they can update it at their leisure and the non-mod who made the threads can still update the OP.

[MetalMaelstrom]

I think the OP for the match-up thread should be someone who is actually interested or concerned with the match-up. Not everyone lives in a place where they fight (offline) against every character. As for online, even then, I imagine you guys have people you regularly play with and they collectively might play every character but the issue still remains. That way, the OP will actually have even more of a reason to bother with editing their first post.

[zeth07]

I would say make someone like Legend make the matchup threads, or someone else you know who will be long term dedicated to the character. When the mod makes it, it puts a lot of pressure on him to solely update the OP, but if someone else does it, then they can update it at their leisure and the non-mod who made the threads can still update the OP.

I think the OP for the match-up thread should be someone who is actually interested or concerned with the match-up. Not everyone lives in a place where they fight (offline) against every character. As for online, even then, I imagine you guys have people you regularly play with and they collectively might play every character but the issue still remains. That way, the OP will actually have even more of a reason to bother with editing their first post.

I will make the threads. There is no telling who will be "long term dedicated" to the character. Having someone else do it and letting them "update it at their leisure" means they could barely ever do it if at all themselves as well. Since that can apply to anyone, it makes sense for me to do it regardless so that it isn't an issue and updating the threads should be something that a mod is responsible for anyway.

I'm not worried about any pressure for updating the threads because it should be a community effort between all of us. Meaning even if I happen to have zero Carl experience or something like that, if someone else does they should post the info they know and I can proceed to add it to the OP. Besides that, I do feel it is a responsibility as a mod to keep things updated as I said, and it shouldn't be because you HAVE to but because you WANT to. Which I do for this character (and Bang), so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[LegendaryRath]

Considering that Azrael is a new character, it would be impossible to tell who will remain dedicated long term. In this case (and probably most other ones) a mod should be the one to start the threads. It's much more likely that they will consistently be on the forums.

I mean, think about it. None of us even have the game yet. While most of us are probably going to pick Azrael up, it can't be certain for everyone. I could decide after an hour that I don't like him and just drop em (Although, I'll definitely make him my main).

Blade, I'm flattered that you would suggest me to make the thread though, but Zeth is right.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Based off your post and avatar, your dedication to Azrael is pretty evident lol. Unless he started talking in Jin's voice whenever he's around Ragna, or he turns out to be a REALLY bad character (I don't see people dropping him). He just hasn't been fully fleshed out yet, I say this because players are still afraid of taking chances with him. This character needs a "Zakiyama" lol.

[LegendaryRath]

Based off your post and avatar, your dedication to Azrael is pretty evident lol.

Well... ya. He's kinda awesome, can you blame me? When I found out he had a Kamina palette I nearly wet myself. He seems to fit the profile for characters that work for me too. Awesomeness, check. Potential for excellent damage / rewards, check. Disrespectful as a poorly raised teenager, check. Scary as hell to have anywhere near you, check. What's not to love?

Better yet is how I don't have a main in Ex, leaving me open to go nuts with this guy.

Come to think of it, I might have some weird attraction towards characters with jacket capes.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Anyone who loves Kamina loves characters that have any of his characteristics. The thing that surprises me most about him is his complexity as a character, I really thought he'd be the easiest to figure out, but it's quite the opposite lol.

I'm even interested in learning him, let alone fighting against him. Nothing like a matchup where both characters can kill each other in 2 combos lol.

[YukiBlue]

I Wouldnt mind taking some responsibility. But i think its weird talking about who starts threads, its about the content inside the thread. Something i intend to maintain to a good quality. When i get CP, my shitposts might even stop.

Might.

[Eternal Blaze]

I'll definitely be contributing as much as I can to help out with the MU info, granted I have limited char exposure locally (Plat, Haku, Bang and Tager.. dunno if that'll change when CP is out) but at the very least I'll try to cover as many details in those Matchups as I can =D

[LionHeartx]

Yeah its pretty much up to all of us a jacket kicking community to help keep the MU thread current as the game goes on. So I agree with Zeth .

Edited December 24, 2012 by LionHeartx

[YukiBlue]

We are the Trenchcoat Mafia

[MetalMaelstrom]

We are the Trenchcoat Mafia

Not cool.

[YukiBlue]

Came back to this thread, read my post again and it snapped. Didn't think about that when I typed it. Shit. Kinda awkward.

Anywho---

Edited December 24, 2012 by YukiBlue

[LegendaryRath]

Yuki, I'm loving your new avatar. How do people make stuff like that?

I always imagined that if Azrael had glasses, they would be like Kamina's.

[YukiBlue]

Xechs worked his magic for me in the Avatar thread. I have no idea how he made it look so cool.

The thought of Azrael wearing the "Deal with it" Glasses is just so fitting. In OD he should wear those glasses whenever he lands Valiant charger. The Union jack was kind of just thrown on. Since I'm destined to become the Based EU Azrael god.

[Eternal Blaze]

That really is a dope avy, I'll need to think of a cool concept like that =P

[LegendaryRath]

Yuki, I hope you don't mind but I made an avatar request similar to yours. I wanted Azrael with kamina glasses :P