iBeK3n Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Makoto is solid, yes. But in a game where every character has something exceptionally good (or broken) about them, being solid in every category makes you the worst. Although she might be better than Bullet, her matchups with the rest of the cast are still bad (although they are manageable). She is outranged by most of the cast. She's not as mobile as Tao/Hazama/Valk. Doesn't have the excellent defensive options that other characters like Ragna have (most people can just 2B her wakeup DP). Her mixup is actually weak. You pretty much have to get your opponent to block a close range 2A to have decent mixup options (Valk/Rachel/Koko/Izayoi have way better mixup). Has problems vs zoners too. Just because she can approach them quickly, it doesn't mean she can approach them safely. Also her short air dash combined with the fact that she has no long reaching air moves like Ragna or Mu's j.C makes approaching zoners even more difficult. The only outstanding things Makoto has are good damage and excellent corner oki, but because of the above reasons it can be really difficult take advantage of this. Interesting, I get the picture now. I've always thought she was solid (in CP) and didn't understand why she was rated so low. The fact that you throw out the possibility of Bullet could indeed be worse kinda makes me feel less dumb. Bullet seems to have nice damage output, but her options seem extremely limited, compared to Makoto. I guess that clears it all up, thank you!
Arc Raizen Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 So I started doing/figured out you could do 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 66 > 5B which is hella difficult at first, but lets you add on 6A > j.B > jc > OD for an OD combo from a 5B starter and anywhere on the screen. I've also never seen anyone every mention this or seen any videos of anyone doing it. Did I somehow discover something new or have other people tried it any just not liked it? I think it's plenty good in theory since it lets you corner carry instantly from a 5B starter, and with low enough health and enough heat you can get ~5.5k out of it or more.
Celerity Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 So I started doing/figured out you could do 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 66 > 5B which is hella difficult at first, but lets you add on 6A > j.B > jc > OD for an OD combo from a 5B starter and anywhere on the screen. I've also never seen anyone every mention this or seen any videos of anyone doing it. Did I somehow discover something new or have other people tried it any just not liked it? I think it's plenty good in theory since it lets you corner carry instantly from a 5B starter, and with low enough health and enough heat you can get ~5.5k out of it or more. You can get OD combos from a lot of routes midscreen. Personally, I use 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D > OD. Your version probably does a little less damage, but uses a little less time assuming you go straight into j.623C~D, so it might be worth using. I don't exactly know the implications of gaining that extra ~half second.
Dark Ranger88 Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 At the end of corner combos instead of doing 5D > 66 > 6C > PF, I've been doing 5D > 66 (dash all the way up to them) > PF. Assuming you hit the opponent with 5D while they were on the ground it gives you plenty of time to land the PF. I was having trouble with PF connecting after 6C. Sometimes the first hit of PF would whiff. And against Plat and Mu the last hit would occasionally miss and leave me high and dry. Plus if you dash all the way into the corner you can do PF(2 hits) > (They cross over you) > PF for some extra damage. If you still have OD you can do PF(2hits) > OD > PF. What do you guys think about this, and how do you end your corner combos when you need to hit distortions?
Celerity Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 I always go straight from 5D to Particle Flare, because from some confirms it will whiff after 6C or 5CC, like you said.
Kcin Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Hello everyone, this my first post on DL but I've lurked around since around CSE wanting to know what changes happened to her after CS2. Reading the threads here have helped improve my play style and mindset when struggling on matchups and getting damage when I need it. I want to thanks you guys for that. At the end of corner combos instead of doing 5D > 66 > 6C > PF, I've been doing 5D > 66 (dash all the way up to them) > PF. Assuming you hit the opponent with 5D while they were on the ground it gives you plenty of time to land the PF. I was having trouble with PF connecting after 6C. Sometimes the first hit of PF would whiff. And against Plat and Mu the last hit would occasionally miss and leave me high and dry. Plus if you dash all the way into the corner you can do PF(2 hits) > (They cross over you) > PF for some extra damage. If you still have OD you can do PF(2hits) > OD > PF. What do you guys think about this, and how do you end your corner combos when you need to hit distortions? Well as far as Mu and Plat I can only get the last hit of PF to miss if I hit the 6C at a far range away. Anytime I 5D with enough time to get close enough to just PF, it means I have enough time to 6C them that close as well. Lately in my matches I find myself only using 5D > 66 > 6C > PF as a finisher if I'm carrying them to the corner and I can kill them with it, or during certain CT combos and A confirms into kills. In the corner I tend to autopilot off B corner confirms with 2/5B > 5C> 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D > 2C > 214A~A 6A, j.B > j.D > 5D > 66 > 6C > PF and that does about 4.7k. I tend get OD happy so with 100 meter I'll usually opt to after 2D > OD(< 80%) > DP > BBS > 5D > 214A~D(66 > 6C for jin/valk) > PF for 6.2k. If I'm going for CT replace 214A~A > 6A with CT > 2B > 5C, that puts me around 5.1k. Most situations is 3 of the 4 (5D, j.D, 2D, 236D) on bad starts into PF, all 4 on good starts, and 2D/5D > 2C > CT > PF when I don't have combo / have the meter to burn Edited January 23, 2014 by Kcin
Dark Ranger88 Posted January 25, 2014 Posted January 25, 2014 Got another question dudes. How do you guys deal with barrier blocking? You get pushed out so fast that it easily makes most of your moves whiff during a blockstring. And if you try to use dashes to reset pressure they either jump or mash when they feel that your pressure is about to end. I feel that this affects Makoto especially, seeing that all off our normals have suck range (5...freaking...C... <.<). So, how do you guys stop people that use barrier from getting out for free.
Yazumatto Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 Barrier adds a frame or two of extra block-stun so there is a negative to doing that. Just don't auto-pilot your blockstrings and keep an eye on them as you should because her blockstrings lead to commitment and worse options as you go farther down the line. 5B wait 5B is a way to make sure they keep blocking if they're using BB for the first hit. It has the most reach so the fear of whiffing is slightly removed and you can catch mashing with a sweet counterhit for her most damaging combos. I find that whiffing a throw in front of them while they're using BB will cause them to react, allowing you to stuff them with 2A. Throws are pretty cool when they are preoccupied in holding back and pressing two buttons. 214A~A throw is surprisingly effective from I've seen in arcade footag These are gimmicks so use them sparingly. It really depends on how you expect the opponent to react.
OmnixTSC Posted January 28, 2014 Posted January 28, 2014 At this point, I kind of play Makoto like she's a less effective Akihiko. Instead of having command weaves/ducks, I imitate this with backdashes and forward dashes where I'd usually apply pressure with Aki. It works out pretty well. That little tidbit aside, if the opponent has been conditioned to barrier my blockstrings, I'll opt for spacing my normals in a way that allows me to just hang back and wait for them to throw a button out. 5B is good for that, as Yazu pointed out. There are times where I just back off after a 2B or 5C and wait on the opponent. Makoto doesn't seem to have many safe ways to deal with barrier (throw losing it's place b/c of the Barrier OS) that don't return you both to neutral, so she relies on making the correct reads needed to deal with your opponent's options.
Kcin Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 So over the weekend i was playing around with combos off FC shooting star, break shot, and lighting arrow. Well my goal was mostly just seeing if there is ANY way landing blow can have an application in combos and found lv can link off FCs if used reasonably early in the combo, and that you are able to link 5A, B, or C(somtimes needing a micro dash), and keep the combo going. I started feeling as if i found a use for the move and tried alternate routes subbing the 2 hits with other attacks then finishing out identical to the lander version. About a day later after dwelling on this i realized there really wasn't a true reward for this as i noticed my other routes delivered all the same results as far as placement and such, and the only thing about the lander route seemed yo be able around 200 more damage overall. I'll upload video of the combos and such but i'm wondering what opinions of this are in general.
Dark Ranger88 Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 If Lander's damage weren't so bad it'd definitely be worth it. It's just that most other lvl3 D moves and drives do 1000 but for some reason lander only does 500. Also 5a links are probably killing your damage. Right now I'm experimenting using OD to go through people's overheads on reaction, but unless you OD a few frames early 5C won't hit fast enough and they can either block or DP you. If you do pull it off though, full OD gives you an unburstable 6K+ from anywhere on the screen. You can even side swap if your back is in the corner. Here are the two combos I came up with (before you guys go in on me...I know they're not optimal). Your back in the corner: OD > 5C > 2D > 66 (dash under) > 5C > JC > j.623C D > 623C D > 214A~D > 236D > j.D > 66 > 5D > 66 > 6C > 236236D DMG: 6209 Midscreen: OD > 5C > 623CD > 66 > j.B > j.623CD > 214A~D > 236D > j.D > 5D > 2D > 632146D > 236236D DMG: 6846
Angry Guy of DE Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Funny / Borderline Pointless 100% Life OD from throws. Effectively any throw done around start of round position can put them into the corner, OD Lander Blow really sends the opponent flying into the corner with a wall splat and with 50 Heat is almost 4K un-burstable damage from a throw mid-screen. 6BC > OD cancel > 214 A~D > 66 (To run to the corner)~6C > 236236D~D~D (OD Version) 4BC > 2B > 6A > j.B > jc OD > j.623C~D > 214A~D > 236236D~D~D (OD Version) Meterless enders can just have 5D for the hard knockdown into orb oki. Not really efficient use of OD but if used early in a round it is feasible to get OD back when you have meter to use Particle Flare super.
Kcin Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Here's some of the combos I had came up with that day. I only focused on recording shooting star combos because it's the most plausible one I'd see anyone landing in a match I also throw a few OD combos rather than showing the break shot, lightning arrow combos, or variations excluding lander. http://youtu.be/scbZxqoHvJU
Dark Ranger88 Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Sooooo...with the upcoming balance patch and all... What kind of buffs would you like to see Makoto get? Personally I'd want j.C to have a crossup hitbox where the knee sticks out (kinda like Ragna's j.B). And the old dash acceleration. And to remove Asteroid Vision/Lightning Arrow landing recovery.
Arc Raizen Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 I would love to see Lander Blow be a bit faster and more usable for pressure, and maybe even have a bit more hitstun/higher juggle so it has 1 or 2 potentially useful combo routes. Something I would still love to see is Parry being useful aside from level 3, which still requires a rapid or to already be in Overdrive. It's a great move for her, but the requirements to do any decent damage or combo off of it aren't worth it. They seem to have done better at making non-level 3 charges a bit more useful in CP (2D level 1, 2 and 3 are useful, same with Lander Blower, 236D(2) > OD in the corner, etc.), so I've always wanted Parry level 2 to be naturally comboable (stops behind opponent within range of a follow-up without spending heat), but to simply be a really bad starter with like 60% P1 and/or a Short combo timer. Just something to make me want to Parry without spending heat.
Angry Guy of DE Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Corona Upper having a lower forward hit-box. There's no reason for a character to be right next to you and by just crouching will low profile her frame 1 invul. reversal. Also giving 6B some type of a vacuum pull effect on hit so 6B~C follow-up doesn't whiff because of how much shorter it is compared to 6B's range.
Yazumatto Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 I'm hearing from several places that it's probably just the console characters getting changes to be suitable for arcade play so don't hold your breath for "balance" updates on the rest of the cast. Expect more of THE STRUGGLE for BBCP1.5.
AvariceX Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Only buff I want is her old English voice clips back. Maybe her old theme too. Okay maybe the old (CS1) hitbox on 3C. Going under ice car was immensely satisfying. Also hi, I'm new here.
Dark Ranger88 Posted January 29, 2014 Posted January 29, 2014 Only buff I want is her old English voice clips back. Maybe her old theme too. Okay maybe the old (CS1) hitbox on 3C. Going under ice car was immensely satisfying. Also hi, I'm new here. Yo! Make people feel bad for losing to Makoto. That is the only stipulation of the Makoto boards.
AvariceX Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Yo! Make people feel bad for losing to Makoto. That is the only stipulation of the Makoto boards. I do that and then I make them feel worse by beating them with Izayoi too . Going off your sig I'm sure you can appreciate that.
Minerva_sc Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 How the hell do I get J.B, j.D to land. the J.D always come out super late.
Dark Ranger88 Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I do that and then I make them feel worse by beating them with Izayoi too . Going off your sig I'm sure you can appreciate that. Hehe yeah. I'm tryyyiinngg to win more with Izayoi but it's tougher. People need to stop jumping lol. How the hell do I get J.B, j.D to land. the J.D always come out super late. You have to jump after doing j.B, then do j.D. But yeah even if you jump cancel the j.B it can be hard to connect the j.D sometimes. After a long combo or a combo off a jab the j.D can whiff if you don't do it quickly. Let me know if this helped
Minerva_sc Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 ahh yes, my bad, J.C, J.D, duh. Yeah it works now. :p
OmniSScythe Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I'm hearing from several places that it's probably just the console characters getting changes to be suitable for arcade play so don't hold your breath for "balance" updates on the rest of the cast. Expect more of THE STRUGGLE for BBCP1.5. Wow "Is Makoto a poor black girl from the hood? Never before have I seen a fighting game character designed around the concept of 'the struggle.'" WOW WOW I'm done
Tigre Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Corona Upper having a lower forward hit-box. There's no reason for a character to be right next to you and by just crouching will low profile her frame 1 invul. reversal. Dear god please give me this. Was this move nerfed or was it always a poor reversal? (serious question I didn't pay attention to BB before bbcp)
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