[CPEX] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

[Myoro]

No we cant do 2c 6c after counter anti air 6B because gatling removed from 6B

I'm not sure though

We can do 41236B and 2C after 6B on counter hit provided the recovery hasn't changed and counterhit launches. In 1.1 you can't Gatling from 6B to 2C so you just wait out the recovery and 2C/5B after on counterhit (On non counterhit you could wait out the recovery of 6B and 5A>2C). Even if we can't do all of that we can prolly jump cancel into falling j.C>2C, so that's that.

 

if im coming to the right conclusions, jB attack level nerf also means less blockstun, which means fuzzy is only possible on normal guard (with much stricter timing), and not instant block or instant barrier.

 

if you cant connect the dots, stricter timing for fuzzy = more predictable IB window, IB = no fuzzy.

This is really good to know. I remember someone mentioning 2GB mentioning how our new pincer might allow for fuzzys midscreen now so that's another thing that should be investigated.

 

Well damn, I was translating that Relius article as requested in the general subforum, only to find it translated over here. You better repost that over there

 

I'm so sorry ;A;. I'mma repost there RN if it hasn't already been done.

[Kikirin]

Here's the stuff that I hadn't gotten to from the first blog post:

 

• Id Zein

  • New special

  • Corner firepower increased

  • Extends midscreen OD combos

  • Wall bound in corner

  • Wall bound has a rather long untech time on midair [hit].

  • Uses 1000 gauge

  • OD version

    • Blows back to Relius, untechable time is rather long

    • (Something about it being useless when Lauger hitting behind, or using Lauger with back to corner? Not sure about this.)

    • Same behavior at corner as midscreen.

    • Uses 3000 gauge

 

Midscreen Basic:

 

• Stuff > 3C > 6D > 2C > 6C > Leis > 5B > 2C > Aerial

  • Since 3C jump cancel is removed, 6D is comboed normally by itself.

  • Firepower increased slightly on parts leading up to aerial, thanks to 2C jump cancel.

 

• Stuff > Leis > 2C > jc > delay j.B > j.C > slide/microdash 6B > hj.B

  • Side switch

 

• Stuff > Leis > 5B > 6D > microdash 6B > hj.B

  • Side switch is also possible with this but since it is unstable due to float, the previous route is recommended.

 

• Stuff > 5B > 2CD > forward j.B

  • (Not sure about condition - grounded opponent? Or airborne opponent near ground?)

  • Side switch + pincer

 

Near corner:

 

• Stuff > Zein > dash 5B

  • (Can extend distance for corner bound by delaying Zein. About as much untech time as Haas to run in and follow up.)

 

Midscreen OD:

 

• j.B > j.C > 3C > ODC > 2C > Lauger > Zein > microdash dismiss > 5B > 2C > 6C > Leis > 5B > 2C > TK Lauger

  • Full health

  • (Something about delay 2C > 6C > Leis)

  • Completely refills Ignis gauge

 

• j.B > j.C > 2C > 6D > jc OD > 5B > Lauger > Zein > forward TK Lauger > Naiads > Lanto > Tedo

  • 50% health midscreen 4100 (damage?) route

  • (Something about not doing Tedo before Lanto sliding knockdown, since it will whiff due to pincer.)

 

Corner:

 

• j.B > j.C > 3C > Lauger > Zein > forward falling j.C > (air?) Lauger > 2C > 6C > Leis > 3C

  • Also possible off [air] dash > delayed j.B > j.C > (air?) Lauger, but this is probably the easiest 1000 gauge combo.

 

• j.B > j.C > 3C > Lauger > Zein > dash CT > 5B > 2C > hj.C > (air) Lauger > Haas > j.C > 2C > 6C > 4D

  • Easy CT 4000 (damage?) route

 

• (No gauge dismiss?) combos are entered in the same way:

  • … > 3C > Leis > 6D > (shift/slide/move?) 2B or delayed 2C > 4D > dismiss > 2A > 2C > TK Lauger > 2C > 6C > Lauger

  • (Note: “Same way” as in same as CP 1.1? Not sure on this one. Also not sure if combo path listed makes sense.)

 

• (Gauge consumption?) [combo] also the same:

  • … > Lauger > RC > dismiss > microdash 2C > delayed forward j.B > j.C > (air?) Lauger > 2C > 6C > Leis > 3C

 

Corner OD:

 

• j.B > j.C > 3C > OD > 3C > Lauger > Haas > dismiss > step 2C > 6C > Leis > 2C > TK Lauger

  • Full health corner dismiss combo

 

• j.B > j.C > 3C > Lauger > Zein > (microdash) OD > (microdash) 2C > Lanto > dash Tus > microdash 5C > j.C > (air?) Lauger > Naiads > j.B > 5B > 4D > 3C > Tedo

  • Half health 5k (damage?) combo

  • Tedo will barely connect in time, so it needs to be done as fast as possible.

  • 4D > Tedo might also be possible?

  • OK to insert microdash at either the OD or 2C.

  • For 5B starter and the like, the ending sequence can be … > j.B > 2C > 6C > 4D > … for 6.3k (Does this number sound right…?)

 

• j.B > j.C > 3C > Lauger > Zein > (microdash) OD > (microdash) 2C > Lanto > TK Lauger > Naiads > Leis > 5B > 2C > 6C > 4D > 3C > Tedo

  • Max health OD combo, 8000 gauge?

  • (Tip for avoiding drop at second 3C - entering 4D as soon as possible for a low wall bound.)

[NecroTheReaper]

If 3C>6D>2C>6C works, it makes me wonder if 3C>6D>2C>j.B>j.C>2C>6C works for more damage/corner carry.

[Myoro]

If not we at least know 5B>2C>3C>6D>665C>2C>6C>41236B>5B>5C(2)>sj>j.B>j.C>j.236C~j.214B Will work, what with 5C having the same start-up as 2C

 

I wonder if we could get a 2C>6C>Tus chain with 3C's recovery letting us microdash earlier. Really all it requires is that 6C hit while the opponent is in the area above Relius, so I think ether 665B or 662C could get the result.

 

Also anyone know why JP players prefer 5B>3C>236C~214A>665C(2)>j.B>j.C>j.236C>2C>6C>41236B>3C over 5B>3C>236C~214A>665C(2)>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C? 

[NecroTheReaper]

Probably cuz they either don't know it or don't wanna bother with spacing issues. 5B>2C>6C is optimal, but there's a lot of delays that are needed. Anyway, Zein will replace those combos since we can do IAD j.C>j.236C>2C>6C>41236B>3C

[Myoro]

So I have a confession to make.

 

When I'm cornered, occasionally I use 214A as an anti-air and medium distance poke. The reason being is that Ignis cannot be summoned offsreen, so Lanto ends up coming out quicker and traveling farther. Lanto's sprite covers Relius' entire being and then some, so it's actually pretty effective if not somewhat costly. It's rewarding in that it gets the opponent off of you, it's very + on block and it gets Ignis out for your counter offensive.

 

I advocate it's use, however I also advise that you learn the appropriate times to use it. On the bittersweet side, if you miss with it, you're liable to eat a combo and get regen anyhow.

 

This will be an even stronger tool I feel, when in 2.0 Lanto gets even faster.

 

Another thing to note is that when your back is to the corner Lanto combos from things it usually does not, because Ignis starts closer to where you need her.

 

That's all.

[TD]

That is innovative. Risky, but also rewarding. Not a bad strategy.

[NecroTheReaper]

Indeed. If Lanto causes slide in 2.0, that might even mean side switch combos from it could be possible.

So far the changes though I kinda feel indifferent to. They didn't really give us anything new other than less resources used in corner combos and a safe on block AA. We weren't given anything we were missing before, like a corner carry move or a move to desummon and continue a combo for less damage.

[Myoro]

Indeed. If Lanto causes slide in 2.0, that might even mean side switch combos from it could be possible.

So far the changes though I kinda feel indifferent to. They didn't really give us anything new other than less resources used in corner combos and a safe on block AA. We weren't given anything we were missing before, like a corner carry move or a move to desummon and continue a combo for less damage.

 

I already use 1K Ignis for 4K damage in my corner combos by doing 5B>3C>236C~214A>665C(2)>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C

 

and 5B>3C>236C~214A>665B>2C>6C>41236B>6B>TKj.236C>3C if I'm headed to the corner. Does 3.7K for 1K Ignis.

 

500 ain't that much more damage really, and I figure the extra 2K Ignis might be better spent on Corner Oki/Pressure/Mix-up. If I think the 1.5K I'd get from burning the extra 50% heat and 20% Ignis would kill I'd go for it, but I like my combos how I like my coffee, cheap and strong.

 

If the opponent doesn't know how to escape an unblockable, you can, with a full bar of Ignis, get 4 3.6K corner combos for 14.4K this way which is enough to kill anything that walks. (You'll even have enough IG to Desummon afterwords.)

 

TL;DR I like to spend the bare minimum on combos so that I may go crazy with my Neutral, Mix-up, Oki, Pressure, and flashy round ending gimmicks. In 2.0 I'll, for lack of solo combos, probably be using combos that use 2.3K midscreen and 1K in and around the corner. What 2.0 is going to give me is more corner damage, rather than less IG cost.

[bakahyl]

I have seen Ryo (i think it's him seeing that the player is called RYO.) using Ragna (rank 14 and dropped to 13 after losing some matches vs Tetsuwo) in some Shinjuku stream , so i am not sure if he switched from Relius to Ragna

[WakeUpDP]

I have seen Ryo (i think it's him seeing that the player is called RYO.) using Ragna (rank 14 and dropped to 13 after losing some matches vs Tetsuwo) in some Shinjuku stream , so i am not sure if he switched from Relius to Ragna

Yeah, thats him. He mostly plays Ragna now.

[TD]

The specialist jumped ship...

[NecroTheReaper]

He's always subbed Ragna till this point. We'll probably still see him play Relius amd wreck people.

[Myoro]

Yeah, thats him. He mostly plays Ragna now.

 

No. Not like this...

[NecroTheReaper]

Like I said, I've seen him play Ragna plenty before 2.0. Probably since ragna got a bit better (or maybe I'm just ignorant) he's testing the waters.

[The Puppeter]

I wonder if 3C> OD> 3C> 236C> 214C> "OD ver of 214C Ignis will hit the opponent fly back to Relius" then 2C 6C 41236B etc.

I wonder if this works! If yes that will be awesome

[Kikirin]

It does work - seems to be mentioned in the second JP blog post from a while back. (http://www.famitsu.com/cominy/?m=pc&a=page_fh_diary&target_c_diary_id=87550)

 

As for the combos from it...

 

 

Midscreen:

… > 3C > 6D > (microdash) 2C > 6C > Leis > 5B > 2C > Aerial

… > 3C > Leis > 6D > 2C > forward jump > delayed j.B > j.C > sliding 6B > hj.B > dj.B > j.C > Lauger > Naiads (side switch at 6B?)

 

Midscreen OD:

… > 3C > OD cancel > 2C > TK Lauger > Zein > land > microdash Dismiss > 5B > 2C > 6C > Leis > 5B > 2C > Lauger > Naiads

… > 3C > Leis > 2C > 6D > jump cancel OD > j.C > (air) Lauger > Zein > land > microdash Dismiss > 2C > Lauger > Naiads > Lanto > Tedo

 

Corner:

… > 3C > Lauger > Zein > forward jump falling j.C > air Lauger > 2C > 6C > Leis > 3C

2AA > 3C > Lauger > Zein > dash j.B > (air) Lauger > Naiads > j.B > 2C > 6C > 4D> 3C

Throw > Lauger > Haas > 5C(1) > j.C > (air) Lauger > Naiads > j.B > 2C > 6C > 4D > 3C

 

Corner (metered):

… > 3C > Lauger > Zein > dash CT > 5B > 2C > high jump cancel > (air) Lauger > Haas > j.C > 2C > 6C > 4D > Tedo

… > 3C > Lauger > Zein > Leis > 5C(1) > 2C > j.C > j.8D > (air) Lauger > Naiads > 5B > 2C > 6C > slight delay 4D > 6A > Tedo

… > 3C > Lauger > Zein > dash CT > 5C(1) > 2C > j.C > j.8D > (air) Lauger > Naiads > 5B > 2C > 6C > 4D > 6A > Tedo

 

Corner OD:

… > 3C > ODC > 3C > Lanto > Dismiss > 2C > TK Lauger > 2C > 6C > Leis > 3C > Lauger > …

… > 3C > Lauger > Zein > OD > dash 2C > Lanto > Tus > dash 5C > j.C > (air) Lauger > Naiads > j.B > 5B > 4D > 6A > Tedo

… > 3C > Lauger > Zein > slight delay 6C > Tus > 5B > 2C > jump cancel OD > 6A > Lanto > Lyra > behind(?) TK Lauger > Naiads > 2C > 4D > 6A > Tedo

 

I got lazy when it came to translating the comments going with each of these, so if there are any you're curious about, let me know. m(_ _)m

[NecroTheReaper]

Watching Mabukapu v Souji... the crossups man. 2D seems like a guaranteed way to send them through the crossup grinder. Now I'm really curious if xx>2D36AA will double crossup, once when you pass through before it goes active and once after it possibly pulls you back through. Issues I'm seein with this is its weakness to grabs, buuut... we need somethin to make up for our fastest low (not that 3C looks useless).

[Myoro]

I mean 2D is a frame trap, so properly timed it should cross up. (IDK if twice)

 

Anyhow, I have yet to see 2D's new air hit effect. It sounds neat.

 

Grabs are 6~7 frames, they're not gonna hurt us in a 1 frame gap (4 if IB'd) unless we're talkin Tager or Bullet here. (Bang is exempt because we'll be in Ignis' hit-box and he'll get countered when he teleports behind Relius)

 

Could you link the vid you're talkin' about? =3

[NecroTheReaper]

http://youtu.be/zGJkVujkLUM. Here it is, very first fight too conveniently enough lol

And i say its weak to grabs because the specific setup I posted would mean there would be a gap between whatever you did last and 2D hitting.

[Myoro]

So Grab>236C~214C>662C>TKj.236C>2C>6C>22A>4D>3C happened. Was like 3.6K  for 2K IG. None too shabby.

 

Grab>236C>Rapid>5D>662C>TKj.236C>2C>6C>22A did like 3K

 

Stealth buff: 236236D sounds a lot more painful now.

[NecroTheReaper]

I feel like 41236B coulda been used a bit more, but i cant lab it. Then again, there was that 40f combo timer nerf I've been hearing people go on about lately, so maybe he's doin that to stay safe. Maybe you can do 2C>6C>4D>41236B>3C

[Myoro]

Nah, you never put 41236B that far at the end of a combo, that's bad news all around.

 

Where did you hear the timer nerf thing from BTW, because I heard about it on the Carl thread, and when I asked there seemed to still be some mystery about it.

 

Anyway, The combo's I'd use in that situation would prolly be something like:

 

6B+C>236C~214C>41236B>2C>TKj.236C>663C

 

or maybe 

 

6B+C>236C~214C>6C>41236B>2C>TKj.236C>663C

 

They look like they might net a bit more damage if they work. It could fall apart if they tech before the 2C though. I psudo tested it in CP1.1 using rapids again, and substituting 214C with 214A. the 6C>41236B doesn't work with the replacement 214A very well so I'll have to wait to test that.

 

So despite 3C being non jump cancelable are we still using it as an ender?

 

EDIT: So because of the 6B changes, our back to the wall Grab combo is gonna see the following change.

 

What used to be 4B+C>41236B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3134DMG/+22HT/NoIG]

 

Becomes 4B+C>41236B>5B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3210DMG/+23HT/NoIG]

 

You can exclude the second 5B completely which makes this combo 5X easier to do IMO, but you miss out on exactly 69 DMG and 1 Heat if you do. This new combo is possible in CP1.1, so if you wanted to, you could switch now since it's better in every way. It actually working in 2.0 of course relies on the various other changes I may be over-looking.

 

In 2.0 4B+C>41236B>5B>2C>TKj.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C is also a distinct possibility.

 

I tested it with a Rapid. It does [3384DMG/+?HT/NoIG]

 

Because of the Rapid I couldn't get an accurate Heat number.

 

EDIT#2:

 

Another Combo I'd like to see tested is this Midscreen to corner combo:

 

5B>3C>6D>665B/665C>2C>6C>236C>665B>2C>TKj.236C>663C

 

Works in CP1.1 if you Rapid the 2C. Does 3234DMG for 1300IG. Looks super cool, and it works from about the same max range from the corner 5B>3C>236C~214A>665B could be used from.

[Myoro]

I had a thought. If our dash speed has increased, 5B>3C>236C~214A>22C>2D>66C>41236B>5B>5C(2)>sj>j.B>j.C>j.236C~j.214B should work on more people right?

 

That is if ~214A's recovery still allows for linking into 22C...

 

EDIT: but wait. our 2D's air hit effect changed... Perhaps we can link it into 5B then? What does 2D even look like on air hit now?

[NecroTheReaper]

The problem with the combo was that 22C>2D doesn't connect on a lot of the cast. This should though (if the link is still there) make it easier on the 10 it does work on.