[CPEX] Relius Clover Gameplay Discussion

[mAc Chaos]

So the end of Relius' jB is his hurtbox and not a hitbox. How random.

[NecroTheReaper]

If it had of worked, I would've abused it every round start lol. I tried it, it still lost, cuz its forward range doesn't compare. Typically there's the rule of "if spaced right, its good" but all of Relius' air options need you to sit your ass right on top of them. There's no "spacing" while in the air, its usually use j.xD to keep them blocking, but obviously, this isn't 100% reliable. Maybe about 40-60% reliable xD, but this also implies that people are mashing buttons at a range far enough that j.xD would hit them without getting tapped out.

[Errol]

So the end of Relius' jB is his hurtbox and not a hitbox. How random.

two-part attack, it hits below afterwards.

 

 

If it had of worked, I would've abused it every round start lol. I tried it, it still lost, cuz its forward range doesn't compare. Typically there's the rule of "if spaced right, its good" but all of Relius' air options need you to sit your ass right on top of them. There's no "spacing" while in the air, its usually use j.xD to keep them blocking, but obviously, this isn't 100% reliable. Maybe about 40-60% reliable xD, but this also implies that people are mashing buttons at a range far enough that j.xD would hit them without getting tapped out.

 

I almost never use j.A, I almost always use j.B. j.B is different from j.A. Forward hitbox? more importantly, rachel's j.A hits below her, and rachel has a super floaty, slow jump. It's not an air-to-air at all, it certainly doesn't compare to a character with a normal jump, a faster j.A with a higher hitbox and a hitbox that stays out for infinity.  I never use j.A for air to air because it's terrible ( I use j.B or j.C, or I do other things). Every Relius I've played does air dash j.A all the time. you're going overboard on something of your char sucking again.

[Myoro]

Apple's n' Avacados darlings.

 

Why is Rachel even using j.A in any air to air when she's got wind, zoning tools n' stuff? And her 6A too for that matter. When you got a god normal like that and the opponent is jumping in, why join them up there?

 

Anyway Necro, remember the teachings of Obi-Wan Kenobi. When you have the high ground you automatically win. Most characters don't have aerial hitboxes that hit immediately above them, so claim air superiority and use our air normal's outstanding air to ground hitbox to beat them up and steal their lunch money.

 

That or get right under them and use j.B which hits slightly above.

 

or if you're feeling creative we can preempt them with that j.6D/j.8D that we never use.

[NecroTheReaper]

Um, no. I said Relius doesn't have a dedicated air to air. And that's the truth. You can use his moves as air to airs, and if you play smart, can win air battles with them. That doesn't mean that none of his three moves don't serve mkdtly as jump ins. j.C is plrobably his furthest reaching normal, but its all below him. j.B has decent startup, but lack of range. j.A has fast startup, lots of actives, stubby range, and can end up trading a lot with moves of the same range.

Anyway, I'm just gonna get off here. I say somethin, then get bitched out for it.

[Myoro]

I almost never use j.A, I almost always use j.B. j.B is different from j.A. Forward hitbox? more importantly, rachel's j.A hits below her, and rachel has a super floaty, slow jump. It's not an air-to-air at all, it certainly doesn't compare to a character with a normal jump, a faster j.A with a higher hitbox and a hitbox that stays out for infinity.  I never use j.A for air to air because it's terrible ( I use j.B or j.C, or I do other things). Every Relius I've played does air dash j.A all the time. you're going overboard on something of your char sucking again.

 

Just because everyone does it, doesn't mean it's good. If that we're true, 6C would be Terumi's best move!

 

Airdash j.A is a one-way ticket to painsville if the opponent doesn't panic at the sight of a pouncing Relius.

[Errol]

k, we'll agree to disagree.

[TD]

relius ja is ok. just ok.

 

it has an average hitbox, which is ok for a move with it's utility. on one hand you do have to commit to using it. on the other, it is easier for him to use this normal to out-prioritize others in the air. that is because its active frames basically do not go away until recovery. it is why you see relius players use it in IAD fashion, because touching the foe with it either means a combo or pressure in most cases. other ja's dont have this luxury.

 

IAD ja is not the absolute best way to approach but I wouldn't rule it out in the slightest. this is a character who sometimes needs to waste time for resources after all, and on top of that, the hit into pressure or combo bit helps relius alot. plus he has several options to approach with ignis, as well as several ghetto anti airs. he has to anti air like litchi, and that is, choose the best aa for the scenario. it isnt too easy but entirely possible. you know who should be upset about no air to air? amane. makoto. tsubaki. relius is fine

[Myoro]

relius ja is ok. just ok.

 

it has an average hitbox, which is ok for a move with it's utility. on one hand you do have to commit to using it. on the other, it is easier for him to use this normal to out-prioritize others in the air. that is because its active frames basically do not go away until recovery. it is why you see relius players use it in IAD fashion, because touching the foe with it either means a combo or pressure in most cases. other ja's dont have this luxury.

 

IAD ja is not the absolute best way to approach but I wouldn't rule it out in the slightest. this is a character who sometimes needs to waste time for resources after all, and on top of that, the hit into pressure or combo bit helps relius alot. plus he has several options to approach with ignis, as well as several ghetto anti airs. he has to anti air like litchi, and that is, choose the best aa for the scenario. it isnt too easy but entirely possible. you know who should be upset about no air to air? amane. makoto. tsubaki. relius is fine

 

r-right. I'd say that's a pretty accurate account of the state of things. With commitment comes risk, but if you're certain it will work, then it's fantastic.

 

Amane's j.B isn't legit?? Seems pretty fantastic to me, although, I have little to no Amane EXP.

[TD]

amane jb is "good". supposedly his best normal, and he needs it. it isn't an air to air as per this topic. technically, his ja, j6c and j6d are his air to airs and they all suck for the purpose (except j6c from afar. low risk low reward move).

 

his jb has a stupid hurtbox and he can get aa'd by the DUMBEST stuff, it's so sad it's funny. also has weird hitconfirms. if anything, his fabhops are what glue this move and him together, since he needs to be above the foe or diagnally above. 

[NecroTheReaper]

You know, because of how easy it is to abuse by mistake, I feel like we should make a list of everything that's good to led ley through. When I say good, I mean you won't ever really get punished for led leying. Even better is stuff we can just flat out punish if we led ley it. Include dash leys too since RYO proved its a legit tactic to apply every once in a while. Also you can maybe consider this as me asking a favor since I tend to ley and try to punish moves when I can't xD;

[Myoro]

Well I can make a kind of formula.

 

Ley is invulnerable for 31 frames and "recovers" for 4 frames making it a 35 frame total move.

 

Our punishes out of ley will be 5A 5B and 3C ideally, which are active on frame 7, 9, and 10 respectively.

 

So we want moves with 12+ recovery for jabs, 14+ recovery for 5B, and 15+ recovery for 3C.

 

Now those are the bare minimum we can punish but that requires that Ley must stop being invincible the frame after their actives disappear, which is hard as it is risky. So long as the move has 36+ frames and has 5+ frames of recovery if we can time it right we can still end up as if we were plus on block, however slightly.

 

Now let's take a trip from the ideal to the real. Your average reaction speed is not under 1/60th of a second. In fact we get bodied by 26 frame start-up overheads. Logically speaking, Ley will only get punishes on prediction or 60+ frame normals/supers/DPs. Also we can't really expect ourselves to nail a 1 frame gap between our opponents actives and ley's recovery, especially in the heat of battle, so we're gonna want to target moves with a lengthier recovery. Furthermore, it must not be whiff cancelable in any way that could harm you. Inferno divider is a prime example of a target. It is 60+ frames, can be predicted, has a wealth of recovery, and places the opponent next to you for any punish you please.

 

Inferno divider must be predicted as a habit, however there are easier ways to predict moves, like if a move is used in a blockstring and is normally safe if it gets canceled in some way on block or hit. Kagura comes to mind.

 

Kag's 5D~A is often used to make moves safe as it can be backdash canceled to safety on block, but can be 5B punished if ley'd. Kag's 5D~A is also easily predicted because it is preceded by his 5D stance.

 

Other examples are Haku's specials which can be rekka'd on block for safety, or Tao's 6C which is big trouble on whiff and super predictable. Teru's 6C which is at times rapided for further pressure/mix-up can be dodged for absolute punish too.

 

Now there are also some moves that break even when you ley them, or will give the opponent advantage yet still allow you to block. At times it is advantageous to dodge these. Leying a meatied overhead won't often put you ahead, but it will make it so you don't have to block high or withstand the rapid mix-up they have planned. Same is true for dodging Resource gain drives in blockstrings. May not get you punishes, but dodging Izayoi's 236B still loses her one potential stock.

 

Consider your opponent's habits in neutral and blockstrings and their frame data then formulate a modus operandi.

 

I may also add that if the opponent is coming in from the air using a normal without landing recovery, and you ley, you  can still come out on top so long as you recover from ley at least one frame before they touch the ground (Potentially after then if they were expecting you to be in some very long hitstun.)

[NecroTheReaper]

Since Ragna is most basic, I'll go ahead and ask a few things about him then.

So Ley would be a good option to screw Ragna's out of resetting pressure out of 6D pressure? For the life of me, I just can't bring myself to mash anything, even though almost everything of ours stuffs it. Also, other than avoiding chip damage, does leying dead spike really change his advantage at all?

[Myoro]

It may have to do heavily with what comes before and after DS, but I think his jab will still beat yours, but a lot can be said for denying him 500 HP regen. He also might get scared and DP, who knows. I think it needs more testing.

 

I think it will work on 6D cuz he won't be able to cancel 6D,  but again, you'd have to test it.

[NecroTheReaper]

It has like 30f landing recovery and 26f startup, so I think even if you react late, you -should- be able to punish, but I've also occasionally walked upon bad frame data. By this time I'm sure itd accurate... nevertheless.

One thing I need to start takin advantage of is somethin I saw RYO do. Anyone else notice that RYO hardly touched 2C and would instead opt for 236AD if he saw them approach from the air. He wouldn't ley the aor attack, but IB/whatever then ley their grounded followup into 6D. Mostly saw this against that Litchi he played early on. She'd do j.2D and he'd either backdash or ley. Isn't that thing like +7? I mean, he IB'd, but damn. Way to turn an advantagous situation into a major reversal.

[Myoro]

For some reason I remember Ragoo being able to dash cancel DS on whiff. So I'll double check that.

 

Leave it to RYO to forsake anti-airing completely. I need 2 see that vid. The problem is what happens when we don't have Iggy for 236A+6D.

 

On that note 6D should be able to punish anything with 18+ recovery. However things with 13~17 recovery can be put in pressure with 6D.

 

To combo from 6D with 5B after ley, I suppose 6D will have to hit them on frame 27 or later, which means you can only press 6D on frame 9 of Ley or later. (Assuming I understand frame data correctly)

 

If 6D will counter-hit then it can hit on frame 23 of ley or later, so we can use it on frame 5 of led ley or later.

 

As a standard for situations to 236A+6D, look for moves that have 18+N recovery, where the N is equal to every frame under the 9th frame of ley that the opponent's move's actives ended.

 

Does that make sense?

 

EDIT: Furthermore, to make sure that you have the 9+ frames needed to make it so you can recover from ley in time to combo, you need to ether use ley in neutral or use ley during a 9-N frame gap in the opponent's pressure, where N equals every recovery frame they have above 18 recovery frames.

 

There's also other circumstances to consider.

 

236A+6D on projectiles: We don't have to consider the effect it'll have on Ignis, meaning we can use the 6D part whenever we feel is necessary (Which will be however long it takes into ley to go get 5B to combo from 6D. We do however need to take into account that Ignis can extend the actives and get Relius hit (Especially true if the projectile is multi-hitting or like Litchi's j.D, which keeps its hitbox even after hitting Ignis.)

 

236A+6D on invincible/projectile invincible/guard point moves: Simply this has us moving 6D's actives to the frame where the guard point or super-armor or whatever ends or later.

 

236A+6D vs whiff cancel moves: If the start-up on whatever it whiff cancels into is 18 frames or greater and without invincibility, then you can 6D it if you time it right. If not than you're screwed unless 2D can come out before ley ends and you use that instead.

 

236A+6D vs moves that leave the opponent airborne: Not so certain what to do here. We have 14 frames of hitstun off of this, which moves the foe up and away. 26 on counter. It's gonna be hard to confirm into 5B 6B or 2C. on counterhit you may be able to finagle it...

 

236A+6D vs moves that rush and moves that retreat: The opponent's move can't leave them out of 6D's range. If they are inside Relius or too far away, then 6D won't work. Dash ley could be an interesting counter to both scenarios. If the opponent would end up inside Relius, dash ley would push them you forward making Ignis go in front of you which is far enough away to punish the would be safe assault. Like-wise Dashley could put other moves back into punish range.

[NecroTheReaper]

I am withholding the urge to just scream some vulgarity combined with the use of a word pertaining to the basic study of everything based upon wjat you just posted. xD

The other frustrating thing that can happen is when someone has an active frame touch ignis. If you were in the middle of led ley and you use 6D, but their active frames clip ignis, they're essentially guaranteed a CH. I wish it didn't have CH in the recovery since you can already call it out so easily with a grab... or still hit them in recovery anyway gor a decent combo. Anyway, that's just wishful thinking. What would be a nice change that I hope we see in 2.0 is a new ignis normal (1/3D) that doesn't move her forward and has a hitbox where she's standing. It doesn't have to be especially good for pressure or combos, just a move that won't wiff if you have ignis active while on defense. I saw RYO's 236AD attempts get shut down easily from airdashes because they would just be too close.

[Myoro]

Well if a move has 18+ recovery, then we can target it. Getting clipped by actives is dangerous, but if we time it right, it won't be a problem. We just need to be able to time the exact end of the opponent's actives.

 

236A+6D still let's us punish almost 20 frames earlier than 236A>5B, for 3000+ damage. That's pretty dang miraculous even though it's a little situational ATM. However if we flesh out the situations it can be used, and work to solve the situations it can't then our defense becomes that much stronger.

 

The things I want to try are "IB a move>236A>5B" and "IB move>236A+6D>665B" during enemy blockstrings and "2366A+6D/2366A>5B" to punish rush and retreat attacks.

 

I'm curious to know how many Ley oppertunities open up for instant blockers and dash-ley-ers.

[NecroTheReaper]

So. I went to local casuals for once yesterday. It was funny cuz I found out a few interesting things.

First, leis>leis is a hilarious string. Its so absurd I actually got someone to mash too late and they got FC'd. It was great.

Second, against our local Azrael player, we experienced a kinda funny glitch? I dunno if its a glitch or not, but anyway. So we're around a half screen away from eachother. He gustavs and I vol tedo. He has 50 heat to RC, does so, holds back, and somehow it behaved like Haku's counter super. In other words, tedo gave no fucks and decided to grab him anyway.

I want Ignis.

[Myoro]

Who doesn't want Ignis?

 

Also, I was wondering if any Relius players 'sides me had anything to say on the matter of "Doll Zoning" and "Use of 22X in neutral"

 

For doll zoning, I usually will IAD backwords and do j.2D to snag any chasers. The combination of air backdashing and j.2D puts Ignis about half a screen ahead of you, which makes any 4D 6D 2D j.XD or Tus you use almost a sure hit. The whole maneuver places you a safe distance away, yet in range to follow-up a tus hit or pressure, and generally only costs 25% of the IG gauge. Fun fact: when Tus(3rd hit) hits at a ground level no matter how high up the opponent is or who the opponent is, 2C will connect.

 

For me this is Ignis zoning, 214B requires not only a respectful opponent, but one afraid of jumping. 6D hardly moves Ignis. 214A is too expensive, obvious, situational, and slow to recover to be used when you know it won't hit. So what do you all do?

 

On the matter of 22A/B/C. I'm confused on what we're trying to accomplish here. When using it to protect Ignis, I can't help but remember that it has all the same stats as 5B and that for those billion frames I'm using it on the chance that it might work, I could be rushing in past any kind of neutral for a solo combo that will fully restore Ignis and do a pretty penny more damage. Usage of 22B/C seems just wrong considering our goal of rushing down the opponent. For the situational time waster or long range punish or zoning tool shut-down, it's fine. Is there even a reason to use 22A outside of Duo Bios combos since we have 41236B>3C?

[TD]

22c gives relius an instant full screen option. On hit or block it is safe, but it should not be whiffed. Besides protecting ignis, it's primary use is preventing setup characters from setting up, and forcing everyone else to react to yet another option. Relius didn't necessarily need this because he could move ignis around and protect her decently in ex.

While ignis is recovering health this is ok as a surprise mixup between this, surprise summon attack, or creating more space. If it hits you can do it again for a safe meaty, using more time to recover ignis. On block whether it be meaty it no he is more or less safe.

Ultimately if is a low reward, low/medium risk move. But it is an option that he didn't have before, at least that involved ignis.

[NecroTheReaper]

Yeah. Having an option is always a plus. If they expect it, they'll take to the air. If not, they either use a character specific option (sledge, growler, etc), block, or get hit. I think its usefulness would be a bit better if it had a taller hitboxes, but its use doesn't necessarily need to be increased. I do wish that it caused a longer knockdown on CH though, at least on 22C. 22A/B don't really need anything changed. 22BD oki is great against disrespectful opponents. 22A is a decent move for oki if you really need to desummon ignis in the corner.

Another part to zoning with ignis is just the reverse of back IAD>j.2D. Just dash forward. Creats a good amount of space in front of you, plus you can block after. This is high risk/high reward stuff though, can be AA'd if they time it right, just mashed on possibly if j.2D wiffs, etc. I tend to use a lot of 214C. Too much maybe. I get blue ignis often.

[mAc Chaos]

So, what kind of stuff is Relius 41236B good for? I've seen some Reliuses use it against me before during pressure, but I don't know anything about it.

[TD]

Slightly plus on block, combo extender.

Slow to start, so without ignis, gimmicky, but is decent on block where you can dash 5b. It's usually best when used to waste time in this regard, not really good for anything else besides a natural frame trap with 5b.

And a combo extender, no words there. Not anything special tbh

[Myoro]

There are some situations where it can nope jump outs and drag them back to where they jumped from. But beyond that, TD's right.