[CP] Izayoi Gameplay Discussion - Tobe! Gandamu!

[crimsonstardust]

Greetings all.

 

There's one thing I'm wondering about if anyone knows yet. Is it still possible to do a normal air dash in Gain Art mode in BBCP 1.1, or do we have to do the angled dash?, which is quite nice I might add, but the straight one is useful too.

I think you can, if I remember right the change list mentions the angled dashes happen if you hold down or up during it.

[Justice7541]

I seem to recall reading that after the patch, in addition to fixing 5B's hurtbox so that you don't get countered anymore when you "clash" with another attack, they were also fixing the "vertical hit-box" somehow. I'm assuming this is so no one can low-profile it anymore, so that would be great if that were the case.

 

Actually, the Gain Art overheads should be quite a bit faster than average. j.B is 9 frames and j.C is 12 frames ,and the hover-dash start-up is 4 frames IIRC, so 66 j.B is 13 frames and 66 j.C is 16 frames. (EDIT: Hoverdash start-up total is actually 9 frames, so that's 18 and 21 frames respectively, but that's still quite fast for an overhead though.) I think the main reason they're so easy to counter is that you can't easily get close enough for them to actually hit that fast, and your opponent knows you can't dash into a low, so they're just waiting for your hover-dash so they can anti-air you. If you can actually force the opponent to block somehow, a lot people seem like they respect Izayoi's faster than average overheads, and won't attempt to counter them because you have enough other options that it would be too risky.

 

Also, just for some cute things I do, I like to use Gain Art 3C, 6C, and CS Gamma a lot in neutral and block-strings, as well as her teleports. Most are at least somewhat unsafe, but that's so much extra stuff for the opponent to keep track of that a lot of people never see them coming. You just have to use them at appropriate times when you think the opponent is going to do something specific. After the patch, I'll probably use 6B a lot more too with the frame 4 low invulnerability, and 6A with frame 4 guard-point. Heh, I just realized that after the patch, Izayoi will have a move with frame 4 invulnerability against everything; CS Alpha and Aegis Blade have frame 4 invulnerability against aerial attacks, and normal mode 6C has frame 4 body invulnerability. Her defence/counter-attacking could be really interesting if someone learned how to use all of these competently. If you knew what attack the opponent was going to do next, you could instant block +4 moves and counter whatever they did next (besides throws) with the appropriate attack.

 

EDIT: Oops. I forgot the inactive frames for the hover-dash. Thanks Celerity!

 

 

You still need hard reads.  It's no replacement for a true DP, although the extra two frames on 6A will help a bit for getting out of dumb things.

[NemesisZeru]

As much as I love Izayoi's design, I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out her..gameplan, I guess? I feel like the main reason I'm having trouble with her is I can't figure out what I should be doing in each mode. I thought normal was more zoning/poking and GA mixups/combos, but the approaches I try never seem to work out, which makes me feel like I don't understand. I'm sick and having trouble wording things(Which isn't fun when naturally I'm kinda rambly), so I apologize for that, I'm just sorta unsure how to make her work currently.

 

tl:dr: I get blown up every time I try to approach in GA, leading me to stay in normal mode and mostly play defensively, but it doesn't go so well. :B

[Angel-tastic]

You still need hard reads.  It's no replacement for a true DP, although the extra two frames on 6A will help a bit for getting out of dumb things.

Yeah, I was actually kind of hoping for maybe a DP that costs a stock or something in BBCP 1.1 since, like you say, in practice you don't know what the opponent will do, so the situational invulnerability isn't all that helpful. 6A seems like its sometimes OK for countering jump-ins and IADs, but there was one game where I did that and guard-pointed the aerial attack... and then 6A whiffed and I got hit anyway, so I stopped doing that, and people use a lot of lows too, so it's difficult to use on the ground. The times I've gotten 6A to work, it did a fantastic job, so I see potential in it. Though it's no DP, it could be the next best thing that doesn't cost resources. It's still very risky nevertheless.

[Justice7541]

At least you can't just throw out a random low-profile move even on minus moves to continue pressure anymore. Like any character with a normal less than -10 that can be spaced to be outside 2A range can make Izayoi guess just by throwing out a low profile move after. Even if it's inside 2A range, they can still jump to bait out 2A and Izayoi has to do a hard read between 2A nad 623C or get punished.

[TheRealBobMan]

Hey, does the auto-guard on 6A block supers?  During my break at work today I used it and Azrael went through it with whatever his version of Dead on Time is called.  During the screen freeze I clearly saw my 6A animation frozen as it was active, so I figured it should have blocked it.  Maybe it was just bad timing?  Or is this one of those "What do you mean I can't Fuujin the whale?!" kind of things?

 

 

Also, what's up with 6B only comboing on CH?  It's like a dust in terms of speed, but shitty.  Is this standard in BB?  I feel like I should mostly use TK j.236C > RC if I want an instant overhead.  If it's done that low to the ground, I'm guessing I wont get anything even off of Strike Fall unless I spend meter, but if I have meter to spend this move seems amazing for mixup potential.

 

Also, do we have anything like I-No j.H to quickly land out of hoverdash, or are we boned as soon as we go airborne?  It looks like we're committed and can't dash-break the startup to bait AA, so this seems pretty limiting.  Since you can't control Sonic Sabre's trajectory at all and it doesn't move at variable speed, it seems like it's not a great projectile either.  Do people think the D version is worth a stock?  I use it right now, but I'm still at the point where I can barely string 4-5 hits together, and I have virtually no time to practice (except at work during breaks, during which time I have to play with other people instead of use training mode).

 

What's up with these 236B > 214B > 2B links?  This is like BnB shit, but it's a 1-frame link? 

 

Also, any use for these teleports outside of combos, besides the GA D version out of air projectile (which honestly doesn't seem that great since you're moving to a fixed position that they can bait/punish)?  It'll probably be better after the patch if we can use the ground version since that opens up our other 3 teleports for some degree of mixup, but so far it seems pretty limiting.

[Surf]

Wiki says it guard points everything expect lows, unblocks, and throws. It should have been able to guard point BHS, Maybe the timing was just off. 

 

It's just how it is. She's plus on hit though so it's decent in pressure. But then at the same time it sucks because then your reminded her 2A is 8 frames. I barely use the move outside of setting up oki. TKj.236C if you need the stars and you don't want to lose momentum I guess. TKj.236 during gain art is pretty good since you get about 2.8k from using 3 stars. But Hover j.B/C usually do the job as far as overheads go

 

She has Hover Throw breaks. It's not as fast as I-Nos stuff but thats how she emulates it. 236D is pretty good to use depending on how much stars you have left. I usually use it when people are clutching barrier during my pressure. Just be conservative with it's use. In 1.1 it wont be worth it

 

You mean 236B~214A > 2B. 236B~214B > 2B wont combo unless the opponent is pretty high once their hit with the 236B, which isn't BnB height. Essentially your canceling the recovery of the 214A into 2B. The timing is hard at first but you'll get used to it. You have to input the 2B earlier than you think. 

 

236A~214D is a good full screen crossup if your confident they'll be at least blocking the sabre. Or from the air as you said. And she has some nasty crossup stuff in the corner with 214B. Maybe some situational escapes with other teleports too. And of course using them for combos. But that's pretty much it. As for attempting to use them during your pressure or neutral, just don't do it.

[Celerity]

Hey, does the auto-guard on 6A block supers?  During my break at work today I used it and Azrael went through it with whatever his version of Dead on Time is called.  During the screen freeze I clearly saw my 6A animation frozen as it was active, so I figured it should have blocked it.  Maybe it was just bad timing?  Or is this one of those "What do you mean I can't Fuujin the whale?!" kind of things?

The guard point only lasts for about 5F, and it's not on any of the active frames. Invincible moves can go right through it if it's not timed inhumanly perfect.

 

Also, what's up with 6B only comboing on CH?  It's like a dust in terms of speed, but shitty.  Is this standard in BB?  I feel like I should mostly use TK j.236C > RC if I want an instant overhead.  If it's done that low to the ground, I'm guessing I wont get anything even off of Strike Fall unless I spend meter, but if I have meter to spend this move seems amazing for mixup potential.

TK Noir is certainly your fastest overhead option, but you're committing to the RC every time you use it since it's so unsafe. It's also difficult to find the right situation, as normal mode pressure is pretty much nonexistent. Once you're in GA, you have access to better overheads via the hoverdash. RC > 66 j.B is more flexible and keeps you closer to them, even though TK Noir is slightly faster.

 

Also, do we have anything like I-No j.H to quickly land out of hoverdash, or are we boned as soon as we go airborne?  It looks like we're committed and can't dash-break the startup to bait AA, so this seems pretty limiting.  Since you can't control Sonic Sabre's trajectory at all and it doesn't move at variable speed, it seems like it's not a great projectile either.  Do people think the D version is worth a stock?  I use it right now, but I'm still at the point where I can barely string 4-5 hits together, and I have virtually no time to practice (except at work during breaks, during which time I have to play with other people instead of use training mode).

You can whiff an air throw to land faster, but it's a very small difference. 236D is definitely worth a stock for all the lockdown it provides. In 1.1 it will cost 2 stocks, and we'll have to find something better.

 

What's up with these 236B > 214B > 2B links?  This is like BnB shit, but it's a 1-frame link? 

Assuming you mean 214A, it's a 1F link, but with the BB early input buffer, it works out to be 4F.

[Justice7541]

Your most ambiguous high-low mixup is probably going to be 6[6] j.B > j.A or 2A.  66 66 (hoverdash > airdash) j.B/2A mixup works too.  Unfortunately due to how slow Izayoi falls after hoverdash she's not going to really get a super ambiguous low right off a raw hoverdash.  You have to screw with the timing a bit to keep the opponent guessing, it's not as simple as dash > overhead or not.

[Celerity]

(Deep 66 j.C) vs (66 Air Throw(w) > 2B) is a very ambiguous timing, but it's slow (~25F), so you'll need knockdown or swords before you attempt it.

[Angel-tastic]

Greetings all.

 

(Deep 66 j.C) vs (66 Air Throw(w) > 2B) is a very ambiguous timing, but it's slow (~25F), so you'll need knockdown or swords before you attempt it.

So on this note, I was going to ask if anyone knew yet, in BBCP 1.1, how long would 66 > 66 > 2B or IAD > 2B or even 66 > j.B > 66 > 2B come out with the diagonal dash? I'm assuming it's still slower than throw breaking the hover-dash, but if it were even a little bit faster, I think that would be pretty good mix-up. I don't think I've seen any frame data or anything yet for her angled dashes though, but I thought they sped up her hover-dash, so that might be useful here.

 

Also @TheRealBobMan: Azrael's Black Hawk Stinger is unblockable if you have both the weakpoints active, so that could also be why you didn't guard-point it if you're sure you timed it correctly.

[TheRealBobMan]

The guard point only lasts for about 5F, and it's not on any of the active frames. Invincible moves can go right through it if it's not timed inhumanly perfect.

 

TK Noir is certainly your fastest overhead option, but you're committing to the RC every time you use it since it's so unsafe. It's also difficult to find the right situation, as normal mode pressure is pretty much nonexistent. Once you're in GA, you have access to better overheads via the hoverdash. RC > 66 j.B is more flexible and keeps you closer to them, even though TK Noir is slightly faster.

 

You can whiff an air throw to land faster, but it's a very small difference. 236D is definitely worth a stock for all the lockdown it provides. In 1.1 it will cost 2 stocks, and we'll have to find something better.

 

Assuming you mean 214A, it's a 1F link, but with the BB early input buffer, it works out to be 4F.

 

For 6A's guard point, I don't know if I timed it correctly or not since I don't have a lot of experience (it definitely screen froze with that thing sticking out), but I also don't remember if he had both marks on me or not.  I certainly didn't know his super becomes unblockable when that happens.  Pretty awesome.

5 Frames is definitely not "inhumanly perfect" timing though.  Isn't that the Instant Block window size?  What would make timing 6A to block something any harder when you're at neutral?  Maybe if you tried to beat this move on prediction it'd be nuts since it screen freezes, but in general 5-frames seems plenty big enough.  Too bad you don't get anything for it unless you spend meter though.

 

 

I guess I'll get used to GA mode having...  mixup that's actually really limited when you think about it?  *Shrug*  It's better than most so I'll happily take it.  I'll be pissed if I find out that characters have AA's on crouching moves though, since that'd make 6B really stupid.

 

Oh right, BB has this hold-input thing.  Is there also negative edge?  It doesn't feel like it, but maybe the timing is different from GG or something.

 

 

Any other major system mechanic changes that would apply to someone starting BB completely fresh and coming off of a GG background?  Are air-techs strike invul but not throw invul like in GG?  Anything specific I should use to bait ground-techs in this game?  Can you only roll front/back, or do they have other options?  Is this like Persona Fightan where you can hold a button to tech immediately?  Does this game have that really stupid mechanic where if you selective tech to avoid getting reset, damage prorates up to punish you for not teching?  For example, you can combo into throws, but that lets you escape them even if they're command throws right?  So like... if I think I'm going to be tick-thrown or reset into 720, could I let myself get hit or just not tech, then break the throw?  Do most backdashes count as airborne such that we can catch them with GA dash > airthrow?  Is there ever any context where you can't break a throw, besides command throws?

 

Is there anything you can do to build meter besides blocking, IBing for more meter than that, and landing normals / using specials?

 

 

Thanks for all the help guys.  It'll take a while to get up to speed since I have almost no time to practice and don't know BB convention, but it shouldn't take too long since I have a solid background with GG and competitive play.

Still stunned by the idea of throws being a potentially high-damage option though.  Feels so backwards, until I remember that throws actually have start-up time and can be broken, which makes them seem shitty.

[Celerity]

Okay, that's...a lot of questions! I'll do my best to answer what I can, although some of this is a bit outside the scope of Izayoi.
 

5 Frames is definitely not "inhumanly perfect" timing though.  Isn't that the Instant Block window size?  What would make timing 6A to block something any harder when you're at neutral?  Maybe if you tried to beat this move on prediction it'd be nuts since it screen freezes, but in general 5-frames seems plenty big enough.  Too bad you don't get anything for it unless you spend meter though.

The guard point doesn't come out right away, otherwise the move would actually be good. It's active on 6-11F of the startup I believe, so it's more like instant blocking 6F into the future. And chances are, if you can 6A something on reaction, there's probably something even better you could do, since the reward on 6A is extremely minimal.
 

Oh right, BB has this hold-input thing.  Is there also negative edge?  It doesn't feel like it, but maybe the timing is different from GG or something.

Not unless you play Carl or Arakune.
 

Any other major system mechanic changes that would apply to someone starting BB completely fresh and coming off of a GG background?  Are air-techs strike invul but not throw invul like in GG?  Anything specific I should use to bait ground-techs in this game? Can you only roll front/back, or do they have other options? Is this like Persona Fightan where you can hold a button to tech immediately?

You can hold a button to tech as soon as possible, yes. Air tech and neutral ground tech are fully invincible, but rolls can be punished. I would direct you to the wiki page where you can view the specific frame data for all the different forms of teching.
 

Does this game have that really stupid mechanic where if you selective tech to avoid getting reset, damage prorates up to punish you for not teching?  For example, you can combo into throws, but that lets you escape them even if they're command throws right?  So like... if I think I'm going to be tick-thrown or reset into 720, could I let myself get hit or just not tech, then break the throw?

I'm not sure about the proration question, but comboing into a throw will make it a purple throw which is easy to break, yes, even for command throws. Proper reset attempts are going to be made when you're already 6F out of hitstun, though, which means the throw behaves normally.
 

Do most backdashes count as airborne such that we can catch them with GA dash > airthrow?  Is there ever any context where you can't break a throw, besides command throws?

Every backdash is different, see here: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=System_Data_(BBCP). I can't really think of a reason why you'd go to air throw as a means to punish backdashes, but 5B and 66 > IAD j.C are both good options.
 

Is there anything you can do to build meter besides blocking, IBing for more meter than that, and landing normals / using specials?

 

That sounds like pretty much everything. You do start automatically gaining a little bit of meter over time when you're in Astral range, though.
 

Still stunned by the idea of throws being a potentially high-damage option though.  Feels so backwards, until I remember that throws actually have start-up time and can be broken, which makes them seem shitty.

Throws are a high damage option for Izayoi specifically because of the glitch (if you can call it one) that lets you RC before the last hit to receive better hitstun and damage scaling. No other character gets as much reward, which is nice for us. Although yeah, if you're comparing throws in GG to throws in BB, they have totally different purposes.
 

Thanks for all the help guys. It'll take a while to get up to speed since I have almost no time to practice and don't know BB convention, but it shouldn't take too long since I have a solid background with GG and competitive play.

No problem! It's always good to see a fellow I-No player in these boards.

[Midnight-Zephyr]

For the sake of brevity (im on my lunch break right now), can I add any of you guys?

I think playing with you guys can help me learn what exactly I should be doing with Izayoi.

[Justice7541]

Throws are like 8f in BB, compared to 0f in GG, I would hope GG throws don't do as much.

[crimsonstardust]

For the sake of brevity (im on my lunch break right now), can I add any of you guys?

I think playing with you guys can help me learn what exactly I should be doing with Izayoi.

You can add me, I don't play regularly online cause I have a few people I play with locally.

[Kikirin]

Does this game have that really stupid mechanic where if you selective tech to avoid getting reset, damage prorates up to punish you for not teching?  For example, you can combo into throws, but that lets you escape them even if they're command throws right?  So like... if I think I'm going to be tick-thrown or reset into 720, could I let myself get hit or just not tech, then break the throw?

 

I don't think there is any special proration applied when you are caught when delaying your tech, though the opponent may be able to get a rather hefty combo off the pick-up. And when delayed long enough, the pickup will be an actual reset instead of a blue beat continuation with previous prorations applied. But yes, you can chose not to tech if you sniff an incoming throw reset, to get an easier throw break without taking a proration penalty for doing so.

 

 

 

 

Is there ever any context where you can't break a throw, besides command throws?

 

There are two that I can think of: 1) getting counterhit with a throw, and 2) Throw Reject Miss. The former is pretty straightforward. For the latter, there's a window after any B+C press where throws (even purple ones!) are untechable. See: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Defense_(BBCP)#Throw_Reject_Miss

[Angel-tastic]

I guess I'll get used to GA mode having...  mixup that's actually really limited when you think about it?  *Shrug*  It's better than most so I'll happily take it.  I'll be pissed if I find out that characters have AA's on crouching moves though, since that'd make 6B really stupid.

While Izayoi doesn't have the best mix-up, I think it's pretty decent so long as you can force the opponent to block. The hardest part is neutral IMO, since everyone will just spam anti-airs every time your feet leave the ground, since you can't run. I don't play I-no, but I think her neutral is better though since her projectile is good for getting in, while Izayoi's isn't as helpful there. Having two airdashes and angled airdashes could definitely help though, since I think neutral is Izayoi's weakest area in Gain Art mode. Some characters do have crouching anti-airs though. I know Mu and Nu's 2Cs have some anti-air invulnerability, but they're slower than their standing anti-airs. I guess it's probably plenty to counter 6B though.

[Justice7541]

While Izayoi doesn't have the best mix-up, I think it's pretty decent so long as you can force the opponent to block. The hardest part is neutral IMO, since everyone will just spam anti-airs every time your feet leave the ground, since you can't run. I don't play I-no, but I think her neutral is better though since her projectile is good for getting in, while Izayoi's isn't as helpful there. Having two airdashes and angled airdashes could definitely help though, since I think neutral is Izayoi's weakest area in Gain Art mode. Some characters do have crouching anti-airs though. I know Mu and Nu's 2Cs have some anti-air invulnerability, but they're slower than their standing anti-airs. I guess it's probably plenty to counter 6B though.

Jin can AA 2A just because the hitbox on that move is ridiculous and the hurtbox is basically nonexistent.

But that's Jin for you so

[7heTexanRebel]

I'm having a horrible time with literally every character just rushing in and mashing while everything I do to break their pressure ends with me getting CH. Missed 623B/C's are a huge thing, I really wish the hitboxes were bigger or they had some sort of meaningful I-frames. Heck I'd take a big damage nerf to NM just to give me some sort of defensive options.

 

Maybe a 623D Aegis Blade that doesn't give you stars but is F1 invul and doesn't cancel into anything? Seems like it would be good without being broken. As she stands now it seems like all the other guy has to do is just go ham right from the beginning and you're already dead.

 

Maybe I'm playing her wrong but I've been trying to stay outside in normal mode and throw sabers and use CS to call out their air/ground dashes and it usually works except for when I miss 623B because of its single pixel wide hitbox and then I'm basically dead since the only thing I've been able to get to work for me is 6A but it feels gimmicky at best.

 

Gain Arts is fun though. Almost every time I've been able to get into it with some stars I win, it's just that most of the time I don't get there.

[TheRealBobMan]

Thanks for the answers guys, it's a big help.  Holy **** at 15 frames FULL invul on an air tech.  I'm almost crying at this news since I like to airthrow everything, especially techs, and I'm hungry for it after I-No's airthrow range nerf in +R.  What's next?  I'm going to find out you can't throw bursts?

 

Anyway, that video was great.  Very informative.

 

 

5B's hitbox sucks.  Twice I've used dash break to bait an attack, then stuck out 5B from long range to punish and gotten counter hit, once by Azrael's slab of concrete, and once by Bullet's leg.  I-No's weakness is shit hitboxes, but at least it works because she has so much else going for her (like diving over or stroking under the other player's attacks).  I would have expected madam-Johnny-ripoff to have hitboxes that aren't equally as bad, considering she has a sword. 

Gotta give us something since our attacks are so slow...  even Johnny has that 5-Frame 2H.  I'd kill for 2A to be 5 frames, even if they gave it a P1 value of 60%.

 

 

I want to try to get ALL of my "holy shit this character sucks and this game is silly" rant out of the way in one post so I wont toxic up this forum for the next few weeks while I get the basics down.  Except I know no one wants to read it, especially since I've been playing for 4 days... for like an hour each of those days.  This game really helps me to appreciate GG's design though, so I guess that's a plus.  And at least I'm having fun with it.

 

 

Can you Valkyrie Astraea while holding a Crusade Seraphim charge?  Or do you have to actually allow the startup to happen and then whiff cancel that?

[Justice7541]

Carry them offscreen and do a tech throw trap, it's what the ballers do.

[Angel-tastic]

5B's hitbox sucks.  Twice I've used dash break to bait an attack, then stuck out 5B from long range to punish and gotten counter hit.

This is a glitch and the devs know about it. That won't happen anymore after the patch, so you'll only have to put up with it for another month or so.

 

Can you Valkyrie Astraea while holding a Crusade Seraphim charge?

Yes, you can.

[Tari]

...

5B's hitbox sucks....

This is a glitch and the devs know about it. That won't happen anymore after the patch, so you'll only have to put up with it for another month or so.

I don't know if you can really call it a glitch, but yes, 5B got buffed in the patch. The hurtbox got reduced and the hitbox got increased.

[Justice7541]

This is a glitch and the devs know about it. That won't happen anymore after the patch, so you'll only have to put up with it for another month or so.

Yes, you can.

It's not a glitch, it's just a crappy hitbox. Glitches would be like being able to block Yukiko IK mid-animation and not die and have her go full invul.