[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Btw to whoever asked about an example of games where whiffed normals build meter I guess you've never seen 3S matches where Chun and Ken sit back full screen whiffing normals over and over or Marvel 2 Storm flying around at the top of the screen screaming "Ha Ha ha!!!"

No, I haven't. I don't keep up with anything SF/Marvel, in fact I make a deliberate point of not caring about them. I couldn't enjoy those fighters if you paid me. It's thanks to them that I didn't play GG and didn't have an interest in BB for a while. I thought they would be similar to them. I'm glad I ended up buying CT on a whim thinking that maybe it could change my mind.

It doesn't surprise me that those games have something like that in them though.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Chaoschao222]

Off topic but wtf is the point of posting something and then making it all black so that ppl have to highlight it to read it? It doesn't make what you say any "cooler" or some "big surprise!" It just makes it so that when ppl read your post on a smartphone they have no idea wtf you just posted lol

Sorry but I'm on a crowded train and hungover and agitated.

The only "all black" message that was posted was Vulcan posting spoilers to GG2, aka using the "all black" spoiler-BBCode correctly. He wasn't trying to be cool, he was just hiding a spoiler.

[Hecatom]

I figured it was pretty off-topic, which is why I didn't want to elaborate all that much, but as usual, I let myself get sucked in. Sorry about that. Won't go any further on the subject, other than to say that Hecatom didn't get it and needs to go back and re-read what I said, since I already covered what he's talking about.

I did get it, i am just pointing out that every system will be always help one character over another, this doesn't mean that the system in question is bad necesarily, is just a the result of having variety in how different characters use it, and imo that is not a bad thing at all.

[LeonD]

*yawning*

SO BORED - more bored than being an Observer...

Just only 2 weeks and this? I don't know if I could wait the next GG for 2 more years!

[Hecatom]

We can always wait playing GGXXAC+R... oh wait...

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I did get it, i am just pointing out that every system will be always help one character over another, this doesn't mean that the system in question is bad necesarily, is just a the result of having variety in how different characters use it, and imo that is not a bad thing at all.

Like I said, I addressed this in one of my posts. Go back and re-read. It's bad when it doesn't result in variety and affects character balance.

[Xtra_Zero]

No, I haven't. I don't keep up with anything SF/Marvel, in fact I make a deliberate point of not caring about them. I couldn't enjoy those fighters if you paid me. It's thanks to them that I didn't play GG and didn't have an interest in BB for a while. I thought they would be similar to them. I'm glad I ended up buying CT on a whim thinking that maybe it could change my mind.

It doesn't surprise me that those games have something like that in them though.

Something similar happened to me, avoiding all fighters until GG, but there's actually a lot of technique and strategy crossover and playing them (SF particularly) can help fill in gaps in your knowledge and make you a better BB/GG player. About 4 years after I started playing GG seriously, I went back and tried SF2 again and holy damn that game is fun now that I know what's going on. There's a reason SSF2T still has regular tournaments. It's still one of the most solid fighters out there even after 20 years or so. Even if you don't like it, imo you're doing yourself a disservice as a player by ignoring it because all fighting games are based off of it. There's no extra fluff in SF2 either, so literally everything you learn playing it can be applied elsewhere. It's something to consider.

[Hecatom]

Like I said, I addressed this in one of my posts. Go back and re-read. It's bad when it doesn't result in variety and affects character balance.

Sigh...

Character balance is affected by something as little as a character walking slower than other.

Every character has different normals, specials, walk speeds, throw range, etc, etc, i don't see how every character using a universal mechanic in a different way is a bad thing, i also don't see a problem that some characters can take advantage of some elements of the game as long as the other are still viable and have valid strategies.

[Narroo]

Sigh...

Character balance is affected by something as little as a character walking slower than other.

Every character has different normals, specials, walk speeds, throw range, etc, etc, i don't see how every character using a universal mechanic in a different way is a bad thing, i also don't see a problem that some characters can take advantage of some elements of the game as long as the other are still viable and have valid strategies.

I agree with Hecatom on this. For instance, consider Amane. His gameplan is to build up to a level 3 drill and chip you to death. His only high move is j.A. He is not a mix-up oriented character in the slightest. I would expect his CT to be different than Ragna's.

[Henaki]

These arguments are hecka silly.

Anyway! I just hope they make the inputs for stuff easier while not touching most of the good mechanics. I don't really think stuff like SB are necessary to the integrity of GG and could stand not being there. Jump Install and other stuff that's just mostly arbitrary hard, even if it adds a little to the game, shouldn't bet there. Making FRCs an easy input you do at the beginning of a move, but making it so if you hit it during the FRC window, you gain the ability to hitconfirm, ETC would make it so both worse players can not have trouble with FRCs while keeping things hard for pulling off really important stuff, which will keep the mechanical difference high but players always get the intended effect.

That's really all I want. Most of the mechanics are good, but just looking at the stuff that's really hard and offers a lot and just going over it would be super nice. After that, new characters would be dope. I'm getting a feeling the least popular characters or might get replaced by someone new.

Just hope they keep things the speed and offense/defense balance GGAC is more than anything. Not enough games are fast and have good pace like AC does.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Henaki

[Seku]

These arguments are hecka silly.

Anyway! I just hope they make the inputs for stuff easier while not touching most of the good mechanics. I don't really think stuff like SB are necessary to the integrity of GG and could stand not being there. Jump Install and other stuff that's just mostly arbitrary hard, even if it adds a little to the game, shouldn't bet there. Making FRCs an easy input you do at the beginning of a move, but making it so if you hit it during the FRC window, you gain the ability to hitconfirm, ETC would make it so both worse players can not have trouble with FRCs while keeping things hard for pulling off really important stuff, which will keep the mechanical difference high but players always get the intended effect.

That's really all I want. Most of the mechanics are good, but just looking at the stuff that's really hard and offers a lot and just going over it would be super nice. After that, new characters would be dope. I'm getting a feeling the least popular characters or might get replaced by someone new.

Just hope they keep things the speed and offense/defense balance GGAC is more than anything. Not enough games are fast and have good pace like AC does.

I really don't think easy FRCs or something similar is a good thing, check out Millia's Hair-Car FRC. I'm not a Millia player but I'm pretty sure that her FRC consists of doing the FRC early for a high hit or doing it a bit late for low hit.

Also, I find SB's to be very useful, it makes the safest of moves not safe which I think is a very useful mechanism in a game that relies heavily on offense.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Seku

[destruction_adv]

I rarely see people even attempt slash back, but it is a really nice feature to have. I'd be a little sad if it were removed, but I don't think it's super neccesary, especially since it seems to be ignored most of the time.

[InWithTheAshes]

... Aren't we just moving into the same debate again?

I think we've already covered most of the topic, and what was just said here didn't really add anything else.

[Gogo!]

Anyway! I just hope they make the inputs for stuff easier while not touching most of the good mechanics. I don't really think stuff like SB are necessary to the integrity of GG and could stand not being there. Jump Install and other stuff that's just mostly arbitrary hard, even if it adds a little to the game, shouldn't bet there. Making FRCs an easy input you do at the beginning of a move, but making it so if you hit it during the FRC window, you gain the ability to hitconfirm, ETC would make it so both worse players can not have trouble with FRCs while keeping things hard for pulling off really important stuff, which will keep the mechanical difference high but players always get the intended effect.

Hmm, if I recall correctly wasn't jump install like a glitch or something that they decided to let stay in the game? So it wasn't really intentional in the first place. Btw I like the jump install. In terms of mechanics, I don't care for forcebreaks or slashbacks - indifferent w/ or w/o.

[Henaki]

I really don't think easy FRCs or something similar is a good thing, check out Millia's Hair-Car FRC. I'm not a Millia player but I'm pretty sure that her FRC consists of doing the FRC early for a high hit or doing it a bit late for low hit.

Also, I find SB's to be very useful, it makes the safest of moves not safe which I think is a very useful mechanism in a game that relies heavily on offense.

Also, I find SB's to be extremely necessary.

You would still be able to do that. Just if you hit it early you get the earliest possible FRC. A good player could still time it late

It's a quality of life change that does not hurt anyone but helps worse players use a feature that they can't do with exact precision. Well, it might hurt the winrates of people with high mechanical skill and nothing else.

Sorry if this is an old debate, I don't really have the time to read Dustloop anymore, and I'm just saying what I think would be good for the game from a design and player perspective.

[ElvenShadow]

The only "all black" message that was posted was Vulcan posting spoilers to GG2, aka using the "all black" spoiler-BBCode correctly. He wasn't trying to be cool, he was just hiding a spoiler.

Ah sorry. I wasn't trying to be a dick. I guess didn't think that anyone would actually care about a spoiler in a fighting game storyline lol

[Narcowski]

I really don't think easy FRCs or something similar is a good thing, check out Millia's Hair-Car FRC. I'm not a Millia player but I'm pretty sure that her FRC consists of doing the FRC early for a high hit or doing it a bit late for low hit.

Also, I find SB's to be very useful, it makes the safest of moves not safe which I think is a very useful mechanism in a game that relies heavily on offense.

Also, I find SB's to be extremely necessary.

As a Millia player, I can confirm that this is the case. It would be the same with a BB-style "hold button to repeat input for X frames" type input buffer though; just input early to go into the high option or input at the current late timing to FRC on hit instead. Such a buffer would also make online play smoother. I'm indifferent about it overall, though; FRCs are not hard, and some characters hardly need to use them at any level. Plus, adding such a buffer would make ridiculous things possible with frame 1 FRCs like Jam's 236P has; inputting [2 buttons]~236[P] would allow her to freely return to neutral from any grounded special-cancellable state in 1 frame.

Since we're talking about them, one input simplification that would absolmake a lot of sense to include would be the "hold 6 to dash out of an RC/FRC" thing that P4U has. 6RC6 and 6FRC6 would still work so old players wouldn't have to re-learn how to (say) do 5K HCL 6FRC6 j.S VCL, but new players would be able to learn it more quickly.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Sigh...

Character balance is affected by something as little as a character walking slower than other.

Every character has different normals, specials, walk speeds, throw range, etc, etc, i don't see how every character using a universal mechanic in a different way is a bad thing, i also don't see a problem that some characters can take advantage of some elements of the game as long as the other are still viable and have valid strategies.

See the bolded part? Now if I thought that ASW had done a good job with that bolded part, do you think I'd be complaining? I said it was harder to balance things around those types of systems, not impossible. My point was that not only are ASW using faulty methods to try and "solve" the problems with guard breaking in BB, but they're effectively failing to solve said problems because of it.

Stuff like that can work in fighters, but why make your job harder than it needs to be, especially when you can't do it right?

[Rhannmah]

hold 6 to dash out of an RC/FRC

Wow, i never even thought about that. That would be extremely awesome, it would make i-no combos a (relative)breeze!

[The Katz]

I rarely see people even attempt slash back, but it is a really nice feature to have. I'd be a little sad if it were removed, but I don't think it's super neccesary, especially since it seems to be ignored most of the time.

Not sure what you're watching, then. I guess in random play it tends to be pretty rare, but as a self-proclaimed mid-level player I try to use it when appropriate. A number of players in my scene use slashbacks, and you can see it pretty often in competitive play... given certain players are on. FAB's a good-enough example, I guess.

As a Millia player, I can confirm that this is the case.

I don't mean to be rude, but I assumed the idea was more of in the timing of Iron Savior and not the FRC (considering the fact that the FRC is from frames 17 onward and the start-up is 17).

Oh, and Jam's airborn from frame 1-onward, so I wouldn't really consider it to be at neutral.

Wow, i never even thought about that. That would be extremely awesome, it would make i-no combos a (relative)breeze!

Last time I checked the buffering system allowed you to do " 6~FRC~6" even if you hit the second forward input a little early and held it. /shrug/

Edited May 27, 2013 by The Katz

[Wild Candy]

This is looking great, it looks like they switched from 2D sprites to 3D cell shaded models. Either way, the little bits of gameplay between Ky and Sol looked great. Can't wait to see the other character models. (I'm really curious to see Dizzy's, ABA's, and Jam's new sprites.)

[Destin]

Jump installing does more to your momentum than just adding the jump ability to moves.

Please no more throw breaks Daisuke.

[InWithTheAshes]

... Wouldn't that just make throws terribly terribly broken?

[Kyosuke Kagami]

... Wouldn't that just make throws terribly terribly broken?

Never an issue with X, XX, #R and Slash

[InWithTheAshes]

Wait, they weren't in them?

Oh.

How did that work?