[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[nnecron]

Like Sol's air version of BR? What if they make it so that the game will still recognize the FRC button when pressed at the same time like I said in the previews comment? You still don't have to press it at the same time, but it'll help for those moves with short FRC window because there is basically no timing involved.

[TheRealBobMan]

This is why I suggested that FRC's should be changed to 50% if you hit it at the wrong time (Still cancels at current FRC point) and 25% if you hit it right (Like it is now)

This make new players able to do FRC's and older and experienced players can do it cheaper but with a small window to do it.

While it sounds appealing, this sort of idea usually isn't a very good one because the optimal thing is still to do the hard version. If you can do the hard version you have the advantage, and so everyone still needs to learn the hard version to be on an equal playing ground.

FRC windows can be extended in some cases, and wouldn't need more than 1-2 frames to feel substantially easier. It wouldn't work as a band-aid solution for all FRCs though. Like Hecatom has pointed out, some things work because of where the cancel occurs, and additional frames might make the cancel easier without making certain techniques easier. Maybe they can fix that with FBs just having that property built in, or maybe players can suck it up and learn the hard timing for certain tricks if they want to play the characters that have them. Or perhaps the moves themselves can be changed so that changing the FRC window will allow easier variants of these 1-frame tricks.

Moves like Youzansen and Sdisc FRC which have windows really early in the move wouldn't really get any easier by having bigger windows because the windows can only be so large. Since they cancel before going active, the purpose is something like canceling normals into them and then canceling them for less meter than an RC, possibly while retaining momentum (not sure about this but Youzansen moves you upward and Sdisc can have dash momentum - do they cancel and retain that?) to do things like feint into a mixup. You can't extend the window further into Youzansen because you'd hit the active frames and get unintended extra effects (cancel the super-fast overhead the frame after it goes active for stupid results), and you can't start these FRCs any earlier because then you wouldn't have a timing restriction that prevents other silly side effects. If you could cancel them on frame 1, you'd essentially have a harder version of RC that you could use out of any normal, and so the optimum thing would be to just always do that in place of a regular RC because it costs less meter. That would just make things harder! This honestly reminds me of FADC in SF4, and makes me wonder why I don't see people bringing that up here. It's a 2 button RC that requires a dash input. It's like everyone in that game has access to I-No's 5K HCL airdash, except it's on the ground, and not everyone has a use for it.

So perhaps it's ok that some characters like Faust and Pot don't require blistering hand dexterity to control, and perhaps it's ok for I-No to stay stupid hard. That's one of the things I like most about this game - if you need an easier character, just ****ing pick one because they're there, and if you don't mind the execution requirements, pick someone hard. They can extend the window or put in a FRC buffer or something wherever it's applicable, and the characters that don't get that benefit just have to deal with it.

Although at this point I'm still just repeating the same **** everyone has been saying for 30 pages. I'm just kinda hoping that seeing it all in one post will make things clearer?

It might suck that someone that hasn't learned a lot about the underlying strategy of the game could beat me using difficult to escape traps that take little execution to do reliably, not because I don't know how to get out but because I lack the execution to do so reliably, but that just means I have to put effort into beating those strategies first. As long as it's not mind-numbing enough to encourage me to switch characters or play another game, I'm not going to care. So even if some characters become really easy compared to others, it'll be ok.

Honestly, unless you want this game to be like some MOBA where we wind up with 10 characters per each gameplay style, each with varying execution requirements and aesthetics (so we can appeal to EVERYONE), we're going to need to compromise somewhere. I don't want to have to learn eighty six thousand matchups (I'd just main Zappa - WE EVEN HAVE THAT COVERED ALREADY!).

[4r5]

Great thing about Guilty Gear is that it has something for everybody, and without seriously turning off anyone. If you're willing to tolerate a bit of what you don't like, GG will give you back a lot of what you do like. Some people like execution and some people don't like execution. And what alot of games do is they make these characters the execution-characters and and another set of simple-characters and tell you to take it or leave it. And what's great about GG is that almost all the characters can be played across the spectrum. You aren't limited to a set of characters. Whether you're aggressive or defensive, simple or technical, the entire cast is open to you and you can play them how you want.

This design got a bit lost through the revisions. Prob what they are trying to get back to with Xrd.

[destruction_adv]

A simple tutorial mode explaining all the system mechanics in great detail would be a step in the right direction.

This.

Though I'm almost sure they know to put a tutorial in nowadays.

[TheRealBobMan]

Can they patch Vita versions of games?

[Kurushii]

Can they patch Vita versions of games?

Yes, BBCSE received a patch on Vita. Vita has the same options as consoles for patches.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Kurushii

[Dandy J]

Most people actually just want a Slightly larger window, but not too much, after all it still needs to be a little hard.

why? who cares if theyre easy? let newbies mash em out, whats the big deal

[Hecatom]

Balance, that is why.

[InWithTheAshes]

Well, firstly, there's the fact that what you suggested wouldn't really help much. The points on FRC's in general aren't random: A lot of the time, they're placed as to give a certain effect (like Ky's Stun Dipper). Increasing it to 21 frames would not make it any easier to cancel on the exact fames those moves need. It usually could be increased by a smaller amount, but otherwise nope.

Secondly, I personally find it execution somewhat entertaining, and, as a game, it's purpose is to entertain it's players. Refer to 4r5's post about execution causing satisfaction for the general overview.

Thirdly, while I'm probably going to get shouted at by somebody for saying something like this, and probably with a fine point that I personally don't see as of now, I have this strange viewpoint of execution being a test of a players dedication: If they're not going to be willing to put in the effort to learn the actually not really hard commands that GG requests, I doubt they would have as such to learn the game in it's entirety, aside from it's technical qualifications. Such a statement might sound sort of elititst or callous, but I'd also wager it's correct.

Edited June 6, 2013 by InWithTheAshes

[TheRealBobMan]

League of Legends requires that you play for 300 hours to hit max level and have the same stat spreadsheet that everyone else has. So, until you play for 300 hours, you're not playing the same game as everyone else because they have stat bonuses that you don't. Some people argue that you need to play for 300 hours just to learn the basics anyway, so don't play if you're not dedicated to being competitive, but really, you can't do certain things with certain characters unless your base stats have those buffs, so you're not even playing the same game. You're not going to win with I-No unless you grind out her difficult stuff, but, fortunately, you can just play Faust and not have to do that if you don't want to. The point is to get into the strategic depth of the game as quickly as possible, because not everyone wants to play that much training mode before they can play the real game, AND GG ALREADY OFFERS THAT. Not every competitive Pokemon player wants to grind for weeks to build a team the legitimate way because doing so doesn't affect the actual outcome of the game, assuming your stats/moves are built within the confines of the rules anyway.

It's not the best example, since LoL actually has differences in stats if you're playing longer... so it'd be like if only people that have been playing GG for a year are allowed to use old-style OP Justice and everyone else has to play the regular characters. Also, Pokemon doesn't have execution requirements at all, which are honestly part of what make fighting games what they are. When I want to play a fighting game without execution requirements, I play Yomi. But I'd rather play Guilty Gear most of the time.

Tests of dedication are pointless. Execution doesn't need to be any sort of test of how much time you're willing to put into practicing, but it does help make the gameplay fun. I could play Faust and never worry about dropping things. Hell, he's my favorite character from an aesthetic perspective. He's just so damn boring to me. Fortunately, GG gives me the choice to play a variety of characters, and I happen to find I-No to be really fun to play, even if it takes too much work to play her.

[shinr]

As someone said earlier, the main thing that will convince casuals to buy a new fighting game is flash and style instead of substance and tourney worthy balance. And the former is usually an extra byproduct from the additional console content. Boost/Judgement mode was already mentioned earlier, but what if they added a Tag mode, with its own flashy Tag switches, Tag overdrives and Instant Kills, like in this hack fanvideo.

And of course, the Isuka mode for the illusion of a party game. (off-topic: As I understand, the Turn button was one of the biggest problems Isuka had. What if it was replaced by a Switch Opponent button?)

[Kyosuke Kagami]

"switch opponent button".

... oh damn, that would actually be awesome. A bit confusing, but awesome.

Though IMO auto-turn wouldn't be hard to implement.

[Silmerion]

Balance, that is why.

Trying to balance a game by adding mechanical difficulty is a plan doomed to fail. It will hold characters back, sure, but not forever. The longer a game lasts, the better people get at playing it, and the better difficult characters do - if you make a character very strong, but mechanically tough to use, odds are that by the end of the game's life span that character will be in the same place on the tier list they'd have been if they were piss-easy. Edited June 6, 2013 by Silmerion

[Hecatom]

Let me rephrase it

Balance of risk reward ratio, not balance of characters

That is why you have moves like the 360 grabs, that have better properties than grabs with 41236 as their moves.

It also happens that some of those frc windows are present on certain points of the move where they don't have to much room to give, since giving more on one way or another changes the output of the frc.

[Silmerion]

Let me rephrase it

Balance of risk reward ratio, not balance of characters

That is why you have moves like the 360 grabs, that have better properties than grabs with 41236 as their moves.

Risk-reward doesn't have to come from technical difficulty. It can come from things that aren't incredibly off-putting to newbies.

I'm not saying that we should widen FRC windows, I'm just saying that "tight FRC windows are a net good for the game" doesn't follow from "it helps keep risk-reward in check."

It also happens that some of those frc windows are present on certain points of the move where they don't have to much room to give, since giving more on one way or another changes the output of the frc.

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here, but I'm guessing your talking about stuff like FRCs that could either whiff or hit? In that case, I fail to see the problem. If we're adjusting FRC timing, it'd be easy to muck with the move's properties until it only gives what the designers want it to give. Edited June 6, 2013 by Silmerion

[Ash of Arcadia]

Damn...people crying about FRC's again? 80% of the new players won't know they exist, 10% won't get the timing, 5% won't know how they are applied in a match, the other 5% will figure it all out with some time.

Let them sweat it out like the rest of us did when we first learned about them.

[bojack]

As someone said earlier, the main thing that will convince casuals to buy a new fighting game is flash and style instead of substance and tourney worthy balance. And the former is usually an extra byproduct from the additional console content. Boost/Judgement mode was already mentioned earlier, but what if they added a Tag mode, with its own flashy Tag switches, Tag overdrives and Instant Kills, like in this hack fanvideo.

And of course, the Isuka mode for the illusion of a party game. (off-topic: As I understand, the Turn button was one of the biggest problems Isuka had. What if it was replaced by a Switch Opponent button?)

I consider myself a casual fighting game fan. Never cared for story/mission modes though. I just need vs AI mode where I can select my AI opponents and the CPU vs CPU mode in training from the previous Guilty Gears.

Oh yeah, and good balance to avoid tons of mirror matches or seeing only 5% of the cast all the time in tournaments. But if I-no and Baiken were part of that 5% I wouldn't mind too much.

Edited June 6, 2013 by bojack

[Dandy J]

Let me rephrase it

Balance of risk reward ratio, not balance of characters

That is why you have moves like the 360 grabs, that have better properties than grabs with 41236 as their moves.

totally diff, the motion affects how fast you can do the move in any situation where you arent just going to buffer it. theres no risk to attempting an frc, other than the move being unsafe if you miss it. but that risk is a 1p risk, not a 2p risk. attempting an frc is a single player game that does not involve the other person. the concept of an frc is that you are paying a resource for a benefit. Those 2 things should be balanced with each other. if you want to go with the logic that the timing is part of the risk, then why not make frc's cost nothing at all and be 1f? it would surely make the more skilled players win even more.

[Ash of Arcadia]

if you want to go with the logic that the timing is part of the risk, then why not make frc's cost nothing at all and be 1f? it would surely make the more skilled players win even more.

Don't tempt them...

[SolxBaiken]

Boost/Judgement mode

Always a welcomed feature!

what if they added a Tag mode, with its own flashy Tag switches, Tag overdrives and Instant Kills, like in this hack fanvideo.

DO. NOT. WANT!

If they ever go back to a tag format, I'd want it simple but effective like X - Advance Edition

(off-topic: As I understand, the Turn button was one of the biggest problems Isuka had. What if it was replaced by a Switch Opponent button?)

There's nothing wrong with Isuka [outside of A.B.A lol] people just weren't ready for it ; -;

Changing the format would turn it into something else, something I might not want to play... [Dust Strikers]. Also turning wasn't that hard to get used to and has its tactical advantages, like Dark Side hits and Back Attacks.

If I am ever lucky enough to see Isuka 2 in my life time I'd like it as intact as possible [not say there aren't things I wouldn't like added to it]

[Chrome Homura]

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here, but I'm guessing your talking about stuff like FRCs that could either whiff or hit? In that case, I fail to see the problem. If we're adjusting FRC timing, it'd be easy to muck with the move's properties until it only gives what the designers want it to give.

I made this exact suggestion 4 pages ago, and found it strange that while it very obviously was directed at Hecatom without including a quote of one of his statements in it, nobody commented on it.

[Yukikaze]

. if you want to go with the logic that the timing is part of the risk, then why not make frc's cost nothing at all and be 1f? it would surely make the more skilled players win even more.

alot of FRCs are 1 or 2 frames anyway are they not? and look at SF4 pro matchs, the match combos used are nothing like the best possible combos because of the tightness on the links.

I believe half the people, including myself want looser FRCs for net play not for ease of use.

[OneSanitarium]

FRC's are never smaller than 2 frames. At least in AC, they average around 2-3 frames, with a fair amount exceeding that in size.

[Silmerion]

FRC's are never smaller than 2 frames. At least in AC, they average around 2-3 frames, with a fair amount exceeding that in size.

I dunno if that's always true, I haven't combed the frame data, but there are situations where that's not really true. Axl's S Raei FRC is set up such that one frame is before the move hits and the other is immediately after the move hits, so it's less like a single 2-frame FRC and more like two 1-frame FRCs.

[OneSanitarium]

I literally just went over all the frame data before saying that. There may be specific situations where you need to hit it on a single frame, but the windows as a whole are never smaller than 2f.