Chrome Homura Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 Or they could just, you know, make the input buffer method work by altering the FRCs of whatever moves have these "variable outcomes" based on input timing so as to make them work the same way every time. I mean, how many FRC-able moves even have this sort of functionality? Granted I don't play a character who has one, but even if I did, I don't think I'd mind losing a couple of what are likely some very niche options to begin with, if it was in order to make the game easier for everyone else.
Destin Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 I like the 50% versus 25% thing. Or even something like 25% or 20% if you hit it just right.
Hecatom Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 It's not like people here is asking 20 frames FRCs lol theres a pretty simple and obvious solution. ok for example gunflame frc happens on frame 21. you then make the window for the frc from frame 1 through frame 21. if the command is input any time from frames 1 through 21, then the frc occurs on frame 21. if the command is input on frame 22, the frc does not occur. is there some sort of problem with this solution? You were saying?
CyberAkuma Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 Also add a huge eewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww to this story talk. Let's be frank, though: is 100 more pages of shouting over "Theory Gear" fanfiction that much better? Simply put, everything we're doing right now is just useless filler until we get our next info batch and/or we get more concrete details. And once we do, I'm sure everything will (eventually...) go to its proper place. Speaking of which, I really do hope that ASW will feel free to cite a bit of Capcom when it comes to interacting with the fans and keeping them reasonably informed. And by that, I of course mean their non-Japanese fans, as well. At least, again, assuming that El Presidente Minooru Kidooka is at all serious about his plans of "world domination".
Circuitous Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 So Zinac's game-in-progress, Fearless Night, has an interesting take on FRC/RCs. RC is performed with Slash + Heavy. FRC is performed with Kick + Slash. (The specific keys are irrelevant, just that they're different combinations.) Both have a decent-sized buffer attached to them. One character has a move very much like Sol's Gunflame, with a similar FRC point. Doing its FRC consistently was (almost) as simple as having meter. (I still missed a few here and there, either hitting it way early or a bit too late. A setup like this lets you trivially add a repeat buffer to the input, while still guaranteeing that only the effect desired by both the user and the designer is what happens. It works pretty well. A system like this in Xrd would be welcome, from my perspective. Also, on the note of bashing others for their views on how to handle RCs, FRCs, or any system mechanic: as it happens, none of us work for ASW. This input will likely never even reach their development team. Since it's purely a "What I'd like to see happen" discussion, then no viewpoint is wrong. Shitting on someone for their perspective will not be tolerated any further. Is that clear? If you disagree, and can conduct yourselves like a mature, rational adult, by all means. But if your response is, well, to post like Hecatom, don't do that.
Hecatom Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 If your had really read my posts, you will see that i have nothing against make the game more accessible, i also posted about many other different ways that can be viable on how to approach how to make them "easier" or make a new mechanic that works similarly to the frc's. I only act "disrespectful" to those who come here posting dumb shit like frc's are bad design or shit like that, specially if they barely have a real understanding on how they work. But hey, this is the new DL where even showing some sort of disdain to dumb shit is not tolerated unless you happen to be a mod, so whatever.
Kyosuke Kagami Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 You were saying? LMAO No, no, the slightly longer window works for me. IMO having 3 or 4 frames FRCs would be decent enough.
StayFree( ' 3') Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 Given the success of P4Area I'm a little worried arcsys will just end up giving us a watered down version of guilty. I hope I'm wrong given their knowledge of a potential backlash from the hardcore community. Xrd is gonna truly be a balancing act for arcsys, one that I hope they can pull off.
Chaoschao222 Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 Xrd is gonna truly be a balancing act for arcsys Terrifyingly so.... gotta make it hardcore enough for "GG players" to keep playing, but also make it accessible enough that new people will actually want to play and stick with it.
Kyosuke Kagami Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 Terrifyingly so.... gotta make it hardcore enough for "GG players" to keep playing, but also make it accessible enough that new people will actually want to play and stick with it. Just add Beginner Mode so they can mash combos
TheRealBobMan Posted June 5, 2013 Posted June 5, 2013 You can already mash jab > jab > jab > jab > super and do 20% damage. What else is going to help with mashing out random combos? It'd help more just to explain how damage scaling works, and it'd help even more than that if people were willing to learn. One time I played some guy that did this with Ky. Jab jab jab jab super super. 25% damage for full meter. Afterward I walk over and ask if he plays 3rd Strike, and when he says yes, I tell him that supers scale faster in damage in this game, so you don't want to combo like that. Jab super, or jab jab super if you have to, is better for damage. He angrily said that he is new to the game (which of course I knew), then walked away. So like... if you don't want to do more damage for less effort, what can I do to help?
nnecron Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) If your had really read my posts, you will see that i have nothing against make the game more accessible, i also posted about many other different ways that can be viable on how to approach how to make them "easier" or make a new mechanic that works similarly to the frc's. I only act "disrespectful" to those who come here posting dumb shit like frc's are bad design or shit like that, specially if they barely have a real understanding on how they work. But hey, this is the new DL where even showing some sort of disdain to dumb shit is not tolerated unless you happen to be a mod, so whatever. It doesn't really justify for saying "fuck this mentality where everything needs to be easy" so most people would think about you otherwise. I wasn't even bashing the system either; I just think it's not a newbie friendly mechanic. If you aren't against making it more accessible then you should understand what I'm saying here. Edit: Just to clarify things. I am aware of the requirement for the hit-confirm. What I meant to say when I mentioned the FB version of FRC, I was trying to say that you can input that additional command anytime during the first frame of the move and the actual canceling frame, and still chancel out the move at the specific frame. So you wouldn't have trouble making a hit confirm a move like Stun Dipper which you have to FRC to avoid negative SD. Edited June 6, 2013 by nnecron
4r5 Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 So uh, here's a new angle. When applied sparingly, execution is fun. Adds a little seasoning to all the button hitting. Overcoming the difficulty, that sense of accomplishment, and the mastery and perfection brings it's own kind of satisfaction. If you ever played ST, hitting those links and cancels, and really just everything always feels so good. But something like SF4 where nearly EVERYTHING is a 1F link is just too much, nothing feels good at all. Or like MvC3, aside from positioning and accounting for hitstun-decay, hitting buttons and doing combos is pretty easy, but feels kind of bland. SF4's Yang and Yun feel pretty good though. They both have a nice balance of links and chains. BB's advance input, and other hold button stuff like teching in P4, I don't use those. I just feel so disconnected, the feeling is muddled. And then automatic stuff like SG's auto-teching, I hate. I'm no longer feel in control. (Which I guess is the point.) Anyways, yeah.
CyberAkuma Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 So uh, here's a new angle. When applied sparingly, execution is fun. Adds a little seasoning to all the button hitting. Overcoming the difficulty, that sense of accomplishment, and the mastery and perfection brings it's own kind of satisfaction. If you ever played ST, hitting those links and cancels, and really just everything always feels so good. But something like SF4 where nearly EVERYTHING is a 1F link is just too much, nothing feels good at all. Or like MvC3, aside from positioning and accounting for hitstun-decay, hitting buttons and doing combos is pretty easy, but feels kind of bland. SF4's Yang and Yun feel pretty good though. They both have a nice balance of links and chains. BB's advance input, and other hold button stuff like teching in P4, I don't use those. I just feel so disconnected, the feeling is muddled. And then automatic stuff like SG's auto-teching, I hate. I'm no longer feel in control. (Which I guess is the point.) Anyways, yeah. I'd agree with all this. I suppose the only other thing I'd worry about is when we talk about online. I would guess that things would need to be made at least a bit "looser" just so that it would work with ASW's netcode better, correct?
Rhannmah Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 And then automatic stuff like SG's auto-teching, I hate. I'm no longer feel in control. (Which I guess is the point.) What about wake ups in Guilty Gear though? You have 0 control over those besides 2 characters, and that's one of the things that make GG so good.
redsilversnake Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 BB's advance input, and other hold button stuff like teching in P4, I don't use those. I just feel so disconnected, the feeling is muddled. Advance input could go either way, but I'm hoping they include teching via button-hold, because I've long felt that mashing to tech is more counter-intuitive than it should be. Also, what's ST? I've seen it mentioned before, but I have no idea what it is.
YoYoCheese Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Advance input could go either way, but I'm hoping they include teching via button-hold, because I've long felt that mashing to tech is more counter-intuitive than it should be. Also, what's ST? I've seen it mentioned before, but I have no idea what it is. Super Turbo, which is short for Super Street Fighter II Turbo
Volt Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) Given the success of P4Area I'm a little worried arcsys will just end up giving us a watered down version of guilty. I hope I'm wrong given their knowledge of a potential backlash from the hardcore community. Xrd is gonna truly be a balancing act for arcsys' date=' one that I hope they can pull off.[/quote'] They didn't water down BBCP so I guess they won't go around wrecking years of good gameplay. I'm currently more worried that they take out some AC moves. Edited June 6, 2013 by Volt
SolxBaiken Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 They didn't watered down BBCP [i think] BB is an interesting case, with each major entry (CT, CS, CP) playing radically different from one another as opposed to GG where from X onwards, everything has been more homogenous and additive rather than supplemental. Which is why Xrd is such an intriguing development, they have numerous tests, proven methods, and who knows how many new ideas to draw from. So it will be interesting to see how they go about things this time around, especially when you consider they still want to make a new IP series.
nnecron Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 There is a flaw. It is that often, FRC's will be used as confirms if the move hit, or if the move puts you at a disadvantageous position, things you do not necessarily know at the beginning of the move. I think the best proposed solution to make FRC's easier is the input buffer, like in Blazblue. This basically extends the input window going in the FRC by some frames, without altering FRC functionality(without making it be cancellable earlier). Ok, I see where the misunderstanding comes from. I did say that "Gunflame command +D" but what I was trying to say here is that you don't need to press D at the same time. What I suggested was that make the game let you input the additional command anytime during the frames between the the 1st frame and the actual chanceling point, but FRC won't happen until that chanceling point. So you'll still have enough time to hitconfirm and decide whether it is wise to FRC or not while not having a strict timing.
Vashimus Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) So uh, here's a new angle. When applied sparingly, execution is fun. Adds a little seasoning to all the button hitting. Overcoming the difficulty, that sense of accomplishment, and the mastery and perfection brings it's own kind of satisfaction. If you ever played ST, hitting those links and cancels, and really just everything always feels so good. But something like SF4 where nearly EVERYTHING is a 1F link is just too much, nothing feels good at all. Or like MvC3, aside from positioning and accounting for hitstun-decay, hitting buttons and doing combos is pretty easy, but feels kind of bland. SF4's Yang and Yun feel pretty good though. They both have a nice balance of links and chains. BB's advance input, and other hold button stuff like teching in P4, I don't use those. I just feel so disconnected, the feeling is muddled. And then automatic stuff like SG's auto-teching, I hate. I'm no longer feel in control. (Which I guess is the point.) Anyways, yeah. All of this I agree with as well. The links in SF, which can have totally different timings between hits, really annoys the hell out of me. The 3rd strike characters in general have a nice balance of links and chains. MvC3 does get a little stale because once you know your BnBs, the game practically plays itself. Making the game accessible to newer players doesn't mean you have to "dumb it down." Daisuke has said in interviews he likes where Guilty Gear is right now in terms of "difficulty." A simple tutorial mode explaining all the system mechanics in great detail would be a step in the right direction. You don't have to worry about auto-combos or anything like that. P4A was simplified because it was primarily aimed at Persona fans, some of which probably haven't even touched a fighting game. There'd really be no reason to "water down" GG other than to frustrate you guys. Yeah, I just created an account. Like a lot of people, I saw the trailer and a lot of tournament footage, and decided I wanted to get more interested in GG. So I bought AC+, watched tutorials, etc, and just practicing away. I'm also trying to learn it on stick after years of playing other fighting games with pad. So....hi! Edited June 6, 2013 by Vashimus
Hecatom Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Ok, I see where the misunderstanding comes from. I did say that "Gunflame command +D" but what I was trying to say here is that you don't need to press D at the same time. What I suggested was that make the game let you input the additional command anytime during the frames between the the 1st frame and the actual chanceling point, but FRC won't happen until that chanceling point. So you'll still have enough time to hitconfirm and decide whether it is wise to FRC or not while not having a strict timing. The problem with this is that you are only making easier the moves with their frc window late in the move. Any move that happens to have their frc window on their 1st frames, lets say on the 1st 3, are still "hard" to perform compared to one that has it on the last ones, so now you have moves that have frc windows of 20 frames while others still have few frames.
Volt Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Making the game accessible to newer players doesn't mean you have to "dumb it down." Daisuke has said in interviews he likes where Guilty Gear is right now in terms of "difficulty." A simple tutorial mode explaining all the system mechanics in great detail would be a step in the right direction. You don't have to worry about auto-combos or anything like that. P4A was simplified because it was primarily aimed at Persona fans, some of which probably haven't even touched a fighting game. There'd really be no reason to "water down" GG other than to frustrate you guys. Yeah, I just created an account. Like a lot of people, I saw the trailer and a lot of tournament footage, and decided I wanted to get more interested in GG. So I bought AC+, watched tutorials, etc, and just practicing away. I'm also trying to learn it on stick after years of playing other fighting games with pad. So....hi! Exactly, they like the way GG is now. They will probably just do some adjustments, take out some moves and slashback, and hopefully improve story mode. Welcome.
Jocelot Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Not sure where I stand on the whole FRC thing. Only thing I really hope for is they don't nix them completely (although I'm sure that's unlikely). I mean, whenever I pulled off an FRC in past GG games I always felt good about myself, it was one of my highlights of training mode lol... as sad as that sounds.
Volt Posted June 6, 2013 Posted June 6, 2013 Not sure where I stand on the whole FRC thing. Only thing I really hope for is they don't nix them completely (although I'm sure that's unlikely). I mean, whenever I pulled off an FRC in past GG games I always felt good about myself, it was one of my highlights of training mode lol... as sad as that sounds. This is why I suggested that FRC's should be changed to 50% if you hit it at the wrong time (Still cancels at current FRC point) and 25% if you hit it right (Like it is now) This make new players able to do FRC's and older and experienced players can do it cheaper but with a small window to do it.
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