[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Chrome Homura]

stuff

Speaking as a fellow pad player, I know your pain all too well. However... even though my first Fighter was KOF, when I started trying to play GG and learn Johnny, the only problem I encountered with the 632146 input (I refer to it as "The Tyrant Rave input") was that my input would overlap with JO's coin, and for the longest time 8 times out of 10 I'd try to super and get coin. I could do supers just fine with other characters who lacked a 236 with the same button (had the same problem with Eddie though, HS drill would always come out) but the input overlap prevented me from performing the most badass move in the game, and that was something I wouldn't accept. So I struggled against it, and after many sessions in training mode I managed to grind out the muscle memory and get it right. It took longer than I liked, but a lot of things in GG's learning process take that kind of dedication, not just the inputs of the moves themselves.

And yet, a friend I used to play GG with claimed it was his experience with Castlevania that allowed him to break EX Gold Sol in the most efficient way possible... he could loop Tyrant Rave RC so efficiently that even playing another gold/shadow character against him presented a helluva challenge, and he claimed to have barely any experience with fighters before we started hanging out. Of course, the reason we had Gold char battles was because he had no game beyond that, but his insane ability to perform that input so easily on demand was mind-boggling.

[Pichy]

I have no idea why the input for that move couldn't have been a double QCF. 641236 is utterly random and unintuitive, especially on a d-pad.

Because it's the input Haou Shotoken. SNK were always big in 2363214, 641236 and the like in order to prevent wonky input overlaps with uppercuts. Justice had the input because GG1 took more influence from SNK than Capcom. Also because the move cost no meter.

Interestingly, the input's a 632146 in +R, so it would appear that ASW are all dweebenheimers with no love for extreme karate now.

[Delrian]

I find 632146 easier than 236236, especially when I was playing on pad.

Different people, different skills, I guess.

EDIT: And only after re-reading did I find that the input they were talking about was 641236. 6 directional inputs starting with 6 are apparently all 632146. That said, it doesn't seem troublesome.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Delrian

[shinr]

Is it strange that with the exception of 360s, pretzels, and a few cases of tiger knees motions and the like, I find most of the mentioned inputs to be very easy to pull off on the keyboard? The only time they gave me trouble is in the games where the input detection is a bit wonky to begin with, like in Last Blade 2 (emulated, at least).

[Xtra_Zero]

A question for those with knowledge of Japanese Arcades: Other than the different player card network, does it means anything to arcade players that Xrd is going to be released on Sega's RingEdge 2 and not on something else like Taito Type X, or is it basically a equivalent of two slightly different Windows using PCs (from the player's point of view) and thus not worth thinking about?

The only thing other than the different card is that some places have RingEdge instead of Nesica and vice versa. Many have both, some have only one.

Also, for the record, the GG super input (632146) is easier than 236236 for me.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Xtra_Zero

[Destin]

The thing is, you'd probably always get it in at least 3f by mashing. There's no point in adding an option that doesn't do anything, which is your suggestion. It's inelegant at best.

I feel like you don't want to lower the execution for the game. That's fine, but you should know that it's only going to turn people away who might really enjoy playing your game otherwise. No one is saying to make 5PPP autocombo in GG and autoselect an optimal combo. I do think people would be in favor of an easier combo system in general, though. That sort of thing. Don't make everything braindead, but choose where you want the execution barriers to go, and put them in places that are intuitive and don't involve naturally simple actions. A successful tech only takes one button press, anyways -- what difference is it if you press it once and hold it?

Two things here. First, where and why do you draw the line at certain execution boundaries. Why not have 5ppp autocombo autoselect and optimal combo? There has to be a reason, a point where you want execution to enter into the equation, or if not (which is a fine standpoint), why not take it to more logical conclusions? And, a bit aside, are you seriously arguing that hitting PPP is so difficult as to be prohibitive for new players?

Secondly, I want the execution to lower to a point. I actually love things like how marvel 3 like you do LMHS jump LMHS land super. That was a good thing in my opinion, it really helped new players start playing the game. I don't actually mind the idea of an autocombo in guilty gear either! But I would like the optimal optimal stuff to require the level of attention and execution that it always have. That's why I like having easier variants, maybe a hold FRC that requires 35% instead of 25%. I suggested the hold to tech late because everyone seemed behind it, though I felt it completely unnecessary.

[Xtra_Zero]

God I miss Melty Blood.

[Rhiya]

Two things here. First, where and why do you draw the line at certain execution boundaries. Why not have 5ppp autocombo autoselect and optimal combo? There has to be a reason, a point where you want execution to enter into the equation, or if not (which is a fine standpoint), why not take it to more logical conclusions? And, a bit aside, are you seriously arguing that hitting PPP is so difficult as to be prohibitive for new players?

Secondly, I want the execution to lower to a point. I actually love things like how marvel 3 like you do LMHS jump LMHS land super. That was a good thing in my opinion, it really helped new players start playing the game. I don't actually mind the idea of an autocombo in guilty gear either! But I would like the optimal optimal stuff to require the level of attention and execution that it always have. That's why I like having easier variants, maybe a hold FRC that requires 35% instead of 25%. I suggested the hold to tech late because everyone seemed behind it, though I felt it completely unnecessary.

In general, I like noncombo execution to be easy enough you can do it first try (though I do think fireball motions and DP motions are fine), and I like combo execution to have the meat of the difficulty. I feel this balances out playability and competitive feel, and lets people be rewarded for their efforts to learn the game while keeping the game accessible.

As per combo exec, I like characters to have beginner, intermediate, advanced, and ridiculous combos, such that:

-You could do a beginner BNB within no time after sitting down in training (or pick it up in-match if you're a good player) for gimped but solid damage.

-You could do an intermediate BNB after some good, solid practice (think 30 minutes to an hour), and have it consistently not long after.

-You would need serious time and practice to do advanced BNBs, but they'd be consistently doable after that.

-Ridiculous combos would need serious practice, but might not even be consistent after that. They'd be the 1f link combos, the juggles that require strange spacing and only work on one character -- the combos that you use to style all over someone.

Additionally, assuming a game with health like Melty, and a well-rounded character:

-Beginner combos should do ~2k or 2.5k, 3k with meter. You should get good positioning off them.

-Intermediate combos should do 4k-4.3k meterless, with equivalent positioning.

-Advanced combos should net about 4.5k, with equivalent positioning.

-Ridiculous combos should about 4.7k-5k with equivalent positioning, or 5.5k-5.7k if you sacrifice absolutely everything (you blow all your meter on rapids and supers, lose okizeme, and may even be left in a truly unfavorable position).

The most important thing here is the diminishing returns. People capable of advanced bnbs should be rewarded for it, but the reward shouldn't shut out intermediate players. Beginners should get rewarded strongly for leveling up. Impractical combos should be just that -- impractical and jaw-dropping, and the signal that someone has gone in on the game hard.

Also, to address this more clearly:

Two things here. First, where and why do you draw the line at certain execution boundaries. Why not have 5ppp autocombo autoselect and optimal combo? There has to be a reason, a point where you want execution to enter into the equation, or if not (which is a fine standpoint), why not take it to more logical conclusions? And, a bit aside, are you seriously arguing that hitting PPP is so difficult as to be prohibitive for new players?

I draw the line at what I feel is easy to learn. Making it so you can do everything your character has to offer (outside of combos) immediately really makes a difference to how people feel about a game -- think about how many people are willing to play Brawl, and how many people like how simply it controls. (I do think Brawl is unnecessarily simple (and I may well be wrong about that), but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about it.) Since a lot of how hard people feel a game is has to do with their initial impressions of how much they can do, making the controls simple and making all your basic system options and character-specific options easy to execute goes a long way to making something feel easy to learn.

I also draw certain lines to keep things hard to master -- and also to keep the game worth playing to begin with. The reason I don't like 5PPP autoselecting an optimal combo goes beyond my spiel about combo execution above: it removes an important decision point from the game. The most important thing to complexity is decisions, and removing decisions removes excitement, enjoyment, and, most importantly, any semblance of skill from that part of the game. (Knowing what combo decision to make -is- a goddamn important skill.) It's the same reason you don't want to only move about and have the game select the best poke for you when you hit a button: there's nothing interesting going on when no one is making decisions. The difficulty in learning the right decisions for every situation and the fluidity of right decisions are what make fighting games hard to master, and also what make them interesting.

I keep execution in the equation -somewhere- to make sure players that want to devote time to the game get rewarded, and also to make sure that there's enough "secret tech" to support a high level of play. (Supporting a high level of play also involves making sure there's arcane, useful knowledge, but that's a different bit altogether.) No one is going to keep playing your game if they can get beat by just any scrub who walks up to the machine, and no one wants to keep playing a game if there's nothing for them to learn or get better at.

The reason I don't like things like "hold to FRC costs 35%, regular FRC costs 25%" and "hold-to-tech comes out late" is that they're just fake ways of making the game look easier. You're putting in something that's just going to be ignored by the top level of players, and the beginning players are just going to be annoyed they're being penalized. They're basic system mechanics, and they fall under the things people will want to feel like they can do immediately. Again, it's just like beginner mode in BB -- sure, you can hold a button to 720 as Tager, and sure, that's way easier than doing a real 720, but if you're playing beginner mode, you may as well not be playing the game at all.

[Xtra_Zero]

As per combo exec, I like characters to have beginner, intermediate, advanced, and ridiculous combos, such that:

-You could do a beginner BNB within no time after sitting down in training (or pick it up in-match if you're a good player) for gimped but solid damage.

-You could do an intermediate BNB after some good, solid practice (think 30 minutes to an hour), and have it consistently not long after.

-You would need serious time and practice to do advanced BNBs, but they'd be consistently doable after that.

-Ridiculous combos would need serious practice, but might not even be consistent after that. They'd be the 1f link combos, the juggles that require strange spacing and only work on one character -- the combos that you use to style all over someone.

This is basically GG as it currently is.

Additionally, assuming a game with health like Melty, and a well-rounded character:

-Beginner combos should do ~2k or 2.5k, 3k with meter. You should get good positioning off them.

-Intermediate combos should do 4k-4.3k meterless, with equivalent positioning.

-Advanced combos should net about 4.5k, with equivalent positioning.

-Ridiculous combos should about 4.7k-5k with equivalent positioning, or 5.5k-5.7k if you sacrifice absolutely everything (you blow all your meter on rapids and supers, lose okizeme, and may even be left in a truly unfavorable position).

The most important thing here is the diminishing returns. People capable of advanced bnbs should be rewarded for it, but the reward shouldn't shut out intermediate players. Beginners should get rewarded strongly for leveling up. Impractical combos should be just that -- impractical and jaw-dropping, and the signal that someone has gone in on the game hard.

This is a bit less like GG because the guard bar mechanic throws a wrench in the consistency of things. Occasionally, what you do in the game will give you the opportunity to do an easy combo that does a ton of damage. On the whole though, it's pretty consistent to what you're describing, or at least it was pre-AC. AC did some weird things that made harder execution combos more rewarding and thus more important, or at least it seemed to me. Still pretty good about this compared to something like BB though, where long ass combos are do-or-lose.

[Volt]

I think CT did a good job dealing with beginners with some specials being assigned to buttons like Ragna's D Inferno Divider. It was good because you could actually have a good DP without having to master the DP motion, which is troublesome to do on reaction for beginners, but it wasn't broken because it had no invul frames so you actually had to time it well.

think about how many people are willing to play Brawl, and how many people like how simply it controls. (I do think Brawl is unnecessarily simple (and I may well be wrong about that), but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about it.)

...

sure, you can hold a button to 720 as Tager, and sure, that's way easier than doing a real 720, but if you're playing beginner mode, you may as well not be playing the game at all.

Brawl is so simple that most melee players don't play it. And Tager's 720 in beginner's mode have a big bar under his health warning you. So it's not exactly useful.

[Destin]

Combo Stuff

No complaints

Edited July 2, 2013 by Destin

[Circuitous]

So this thread has completely gone off-track with regards to Xrd. (No, discussion of theoretical gameplay mechanics is not relevant to Xrd.)

But we're well past the point of splitting the discussion off, so keep on truckin'. Once new Xrd information comes out we'll make a new thread and start fresh.

[White Man]

So this thread has completely gone off-track with regards to Xrd.

I guess that's what happens when you have a company drop a major bombshell of an announcement and then go completely silent without answering any questions or providing anything in the way of even the most basic follow-up information.

ASW is like the girlfriend who texts you a bunch of nude pics and messages about how she's gonna rock your world the next time you get together, then doesn't respond to any of your attempts to contact her for the next three weeks.

[BladeOfJustice7]

^Blueballs much?

But anyways, should Daisuke remix the songs (again), because he's fucking good at that. Or should he just come out with new songs like Heavy Day, this primarily applies to vs themes. I'm personally too heavily invested in Holy Orders, for Ky to get a completely new theme in Xrd.

For me personally I'd love to get a remix to Still in the Dark, Existence, and No Mercy. But Heavy Day is an AWESOME theme.

[SolxBaiken]

I'd rather they pull a KoF and have 2 OST options; A new songs, B for original/remixes of older songs.

I really want some new songs . . . [specifically on Isuka-tier]

[BladeOfJustice7]

Wow, good to see people know about that Isuka music, I've only realized how dope the music was from that game last month lol. But what you're referring to in KOF, is that in-game 2 versions of songs, or the cd's that came with the game?

[SolxBaiken]

I'm probably one of the few people that legitimately enjoyed Isuka [Leopaldon, you will be missed ; -;7 also the most broke ass ver of A.B.A lol, and as far as the OST is concerned, some of Daisuke and co.'s best work IMO.

And yes, in console KoF games they allow you to switch between 2 vers of the OST, with A being the music made/selected for the game originally and B being an "arrange" set, usually comprised of old ver of character/team songs or even new remixes. So I'd like to see a similar option for Xrd, it's been over 10yrs, I want some new songs that includes ones for Sol and Ky [as in Overture that had the 3rd major revisions of their songs] so in order to make everyone happy, I'd like to see an OST A/B option. New + Old/Remixes.

[Kitsoru]

But anyways, should Daisuke remix the songs (again), because he's fucking good at that. Or should he just come out with new songs like Heavy Day, this primarily applies to vs themes. I'm personally too heavily invested in Holy Orders, for Ky to get a completely new theme in Xrd.

For me personally I'd love to get a remix to Still in the Dark, Existence, and No Mercy. But Heavy Day is an AWESOME theme.

I was just thinking about this. I'm a bit torn; to be honest I really haven't liked anything he's composed in the past 5 years nearly as much as the older stuff, it all feels way too overdone. I sincerely hope that they don't do vocal tracks for the in-game songs, whatever they do. Heavy Day is great an an OP theme; but in-game should be kept vocalless.

I don't think we're going to get remixes of GGX themes though, the ones that consistently change like Sol vs Ky, I'm sure we'll get new music.

I'm probably one of the few people that legitimately enjoyed Isuka [Leopaldon, you will be missed ; -;7 also the most broke ass ver of A.B.A lol, and as far as the OST is concerned, some of Daisuke and co.'s best work IMO.

Worth noting that about half of that OST wasn't Daisuke's work, though most of the main stage themes were (several Boost themes, I think all of the menu themes, and all of ABA's themes, for example, are not by Daisuke- both Quicksilver and Keep in Gates).

[Jocelot]

I dunno, I'd be a little sad if the badass Assassin's Guild theme was replaced with something new. Think it's my favourite theme in the whole game. Then again, it would most likely be replaced with something just as awesome, so I guess it wouldn't be as bad. We've heard all but one new track from Xrd (Heavy Day of course) and I'm already in love.

edit- Had this post in the "quick reply" box for closer to an hour, didn't see SxB's suggestion. That would work too, lol.

[SolxBaiken]

Worth noting that about half of that OST wasn't Daisuke's work

Which is why I said...

some of Daisuke and co.'s best work IMO.

[mynus]

Smart Stuff.

You win the thread sir.

I agree with the multi-OST option. Still wish they would make Isuka & Korean #Reload tracks DLC for the game (as well as Faust's Korean stage). I would copp that so fast lol.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

"No Mercy"

You wrote CONCLUSION wrong

I wouldn't mind if Daisuke makes new tracks for everyone. But I would be happy if he remixes some of his oldest tracks (Black Soul, In Slave's Glory, Suspicious Cock, etc.)

[Volt]

As long he doesn't remix the tracks with the same guy who remixed BBCP's I approve.

Suspicious Cock

I'm pretty sure you mistyped something there y'know... Or the name of the song isn't Suspicious Cook?

[SolxBaiken]

I actually like alot of the CP remixes, especially for songs I didn't care so much for originally. Also I feel like Ishiwatari does better work when he has more control, like the OST for Uprising was better than all of BB IMO, and Overture was great, 2nd best work next Isuka. So I'm confident in new songs, bring em on!

[Volt]

I actually like alot of the CP remixes, especially for songs I didn't care so much for originally. Also I feel like Ishiwatari does better work when he has more control, like the OST for Uprising was better than all of BB IMO, and Overture was great, 2nd best work next Isuka. So I'm confident in new songs, bring em on!

Overture was really great, but some of the CP remixes were lackluster. Especially Marionette Angst and Motor Pokemon.