[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Kitsoru]

Yeah I didn't like Isuka and Overture (or BB) nearly as much as X and XX, but I doubt we're ever going to get a return to the pure melodic rock soundtrack at this point.. oh well. I haven't gotten around to giving Uprising a listen yet though, so I guess I should.

[shinr]

Just listened to the BBCP remixes for curiosity, and IMHO they are trying too hard to make it sound live-like. I felt the same to a lesser extent about the XX remixes of the X themes (Slayer's, I-No's, Zappa's and Bridget's themes rocked, though).

[Rhiya]

snip

I think your point is valid, but you're also only seeing one part of the spectrum.

Every game control scheme is made with intuitivity, practicality, and artistry in mind. Some control schemes lean more in certain directions: for examples outside of fighting games, Skyward Sword leans towards intuitive controls (at the expense of practicality for some things like falling), while a game like Shadow of the Colossus leans more to artistry (which has led people to complain, for years, that Wander is hard to control). The thing is, no game will be perfect in all three, and they're often at odds. Even the best games suffer a loss in some area or another: as an example of that, Okami's PS2 version sacrifices a certain amount of intuitivity by mapping drawing to a control stick. The PS2 controller simply doesn't have the resources to make it truly and flawlessly intuitive, like it would've been if the game was originally made for the DS -- drawing would've have been drawing, with zero disconnect between your actions and the in-game actions. To see how they're at odds, consider how SotC feels impractical to control for some people, but there's no question that it replicates Wander's struggle in your own experience; artistry is fighting practicality, and there wouldn't have been a way to get the same effect while making Wander easier to control.

This applies to fighting games in a very similar way. Every bit of the control scheme in a fighting game is also attempting to cater to each of these three things, but it's impossible to cater to all of them at once; developers are forced to pick and choose. In your example, Sirlin catered to practicality at the expense of intuitivity and a bit of artistry. He made a good decision for the game, but one the community was likely uncomfortable with. Here, in our discussion, it's really the same thing. Hold-to-tech makes teching on the first frame and teching when you want to tech more practical, but takes away from the frantic mashing (and consequent feeling of involvement) that pressing a button to tech entails. Having an alternative input for FRC would take away from the feeling of cancelling a move on the -exact- frame you want to cancel it, but it would make FRCs much easier to perform. These are both examples of practicality fighting artistry and intuitivity, the exact conflict I discussed above.

I hold the stance I do because I feel like the execution required to achieve that artistry is excessive in the above cases. If you compare to other video games, you can think of teching and FRC-ing like QTEs -- but the game doesn't signal you to do them, and you have about a sixteen millisecond window to get a first frame tech, or, say, a 32 millisecond window to FRC Millia's S disc. To give you some comparison of how quick that is, a normal blink is somewhere between 100 and 400 milliseconds. That's an insane execution request, and that's why I'm willing to exchange artistry for practicality here.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Dusk Thanatos

[Kyosuke Kagami]

As long he doesn't remix the tracks with the same guy who remixed BBCP's I approve.

Nothing wrong with CP tracks. I always liked how they sound less animu-music like lol

I'm pretty sure you mistyped something there y'know... Or the name of the song isn't Suspicious Cook?

Reading the stupidity I wrote made me lol

[TheRealBobMan]

Sounds like an Oglaf comic.

I want I-No's Korean #R theme.

[mynus]

Stuff.

It's been said so many times that FRC's are not hard. There is nothing excessive about it. Players who actually play GG will never tell you FRC's are too difficult or excessive, but that is due to years of playing. However, even when first learning GG, coming from an mvc2 background, overcoming an execution barrier and optimizing my character was what makes learning a new game so much fun. Nothing but simple muscle memory. If you can do simple 1-2 frame links in SFIV, TAC infinite in Marvel, you can learn some minimum 2 frame FRC's. Fighting games should stay fighting games, guilty should stay guilty.

Speculation is all good and all, but GG at its soul has a reputation that demands excellence; for a reason.

[Rhiya]

It's been said so many times that FRC's are not hard. There is nothing excessive about it. Players who actually play GG will never tell you FRC's are too difficult or excessive, but that is due to years of playing. However, even when first learning GG, coming from an mvc2 background, overcoming an execution barrier and optimizing my character was what makes learning a new game so much fun. Nothing but simple muscle memory. If you can do simple 1-2 frame links in SFIV, TAC infinite in Marvel, you can learn some minimum 2 frame FRC's. Fighting games should stay fighting games, guilty should stay guilty.

Speculation is all good and all, but GG at its soul has a reputation that demands excellence; for a reason.

FRCs aren't hard to fighting game players. Having played fighters for a couple of years, now, they aren't that terrible to me, either -- I mean, I could do a couple of FRCs pretty quickly. The thing is, ArcSys can't cater to the same playerbase for eternity. Players move on, and without new blood, scenes for games slowly stagnate and die. Xrd is ArcSys's best chance to bring in new blood to drop more yen coins into their machines and put more ArcSys-labeled discs in their PS4s. The 3D graphics alone make it clear that ArcSys is trying to bring in new players, and those kinds of control simplifications I mentioned go a long way to keeping players around to buy more revisions and play at their local arcade for years to come. When more people feel like they can get past the initial hump of difficulty, more people stick around. If it were just about the people already playing the game, it wouldn't matter at all -- but Xrd can't and won't just be about the people already playing the game.

Just to further expand on the gap between beginner players and people who've been playing for a while, consider this. I'm teaching someone basic Melty right now. I'm playing characters I've never played before and doing bnbs without ever having touched those characters, because a lot of Melty bnbs are that easy. But the person I'm teaching is new to fighting games entirely. His character's combo is just buttons>3C>j.BC>j.BC>AT. I did that first try, no sweat, and get it every time -- but he's been practicing 10 or 15 minutes each day for the past week, and he's just starting to get it consistently in-match. The difference between a prior fighting game player and a brand new one is immense.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Dusk Thanatos

[Delrian]

Yeah, you're also starting him off on basic bnbs, rather than complex matchup-specific oki setups into a 3-way mixup. I've had a similar friend who doing QCFs and special cancelling normals was a real accomplishment at the end of a session for him in BB. Simplifying FRCs, character weights, or anything else in Guilty Gear wouldn't help him get into it easier. He also doesn't need to learn any FRCs, character adjustments for his (nonexistent) combos, or basic oki. In fact, his main issue with GG (which was the reason he preferred BB) was being able to see what is happening on the screen, which I imagined would be improved once Xrd is released. As its been mentioned many times before, new players don't care about mechanics, they care about presentation. Whenever I ask anyone who doesn't play FGs competitively what they like about Guilty Gear, it's consistently the music, cool moves, and feel of the game.

Now that I think about it, if I could only make one change to FRCs, it would be an animation that hints at the window (like Corona's 214S in Wonderful World).

[Narroo]

A Post

Of course to someone who's been playing for years, the mechanics they've been practicing for years are easy. That's a silly argument. For instance, doesn't this look easy, to the player who's playing it? This person spent an incredible amount of time practicing this and it's probably not too difficult for him. What about this?

So let's say we made a game designed around that Duo-Play of Ikaruga. Would that be a good game? No. It can be done, but the difficulty in mastering it is so immense, almost no one would want to play it.

In general, the difficulty of a game should not be based around how easy it is for master players that devote years to it because they fall in love. Pretty much anything humanly possible becomes easy after enough practice, and you'd be surprised by what is possible. Rather, the difficulty should be gauged by how hard it is for people who aren't masters to learn. The alternative makes no sense.

[Rhiya]

Yeah, you're also starting him off on basic bnbs, rather than complex matchup-specific oki setups into a 3-way mixup. I've had a similar friend who doing QCFs and special cancelling normals was a real accomplishment at the end of a session for him in BB. Simplifying FRCs, character weights, or anything else in Guilty Gear wouldn't help him get into it easier. He also doesn't need to learn any FRCs, character adjustments for his (nonexistent) combos, or basic oki. In fact, his main issue with GG (which was the reason he preferred BB) was being able to see what is happening on the screen, which I imagined would be improved once Xrd is released. As its been mentioned many times before, new players don't care about mechanics, they care about presentation. Whenever I ask anyone who doesn't play FGs competitively what they like about Guilty Gear, it's consistently the music, cool moves, and feel of the game.

Now that I think about it, if I could only make one change to FRCs, it would be an animation that hints at the window (like Corona's 214S in Wonderful World).

I think you have a point when it comes to getting people to play in the first place, but what ArcSys needs to do is get people on a machine and then keep them coming back. It not only has to do with the most initial of initial impressions, but also with how much a beginner feels like they need to learn. If something looks too hard, ArcSys is going to scare people off. I actually got scared off from learning Rachel in CT because I took one look at the combo thread and it felt like someone vomited a thousand-page list onto the forums with no explanation of what was most important, or even where to start. At least 20 combos there are labeled "BNB."

Now I play Litchi.

At any rate, think of it like this: how many people want to keep dumping their yen coins into a machine if they don't feel like they can learn everything in front of them? More people will walk ten miles than a hundred; more still will walk five. If people feel learning to play Xrd is manageable, they're a lot more likely to do it.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Dusk Thanatos

[Silmerion]

You guys, not that there's much of anything to discuss anyway, but Jesus Christ you've been arguing about input difficulty for at least a dozen pages and I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon. It's not like there's any way for us to affect Arcsys' design process in the first place.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Silmerion

[White Man]

You guys, not that there's much of anything to discuss anyway, but Jesus Christ you've been arguing about input difficulty for at least a dozen pages and I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon.

I found the discussion about input difficulty really interesting since, for me, it exposed a fundamental truth that I think covers a large potion of what this thread has been about: Whether it's something as basic as the command for a super or an advanced mechanic like timing 1-frame cancels, perceptions of difficulty and fairness are so highly individualized that expecting broad agreement on how to "balance" engine difficulty is absurd. One player's impossible is another player's boringly easy, and even if they should find an agreeable compromise, chances are it won't work for everyone else.

As for the gameplay in Xrd, I'm just going to hope the end product retains that signature Guilty Gear feel to it, which I currently have no reason to believe it won't. I have my own ideas about what they should and shouldn't do with the engine--but then, so does everybody who plans on playing it. Ultimately, as long as the game meets the standards of quality the team has set with the series up to this point, I'll be satisfied.

[Yukikaze]

Sounds like an Oglaf comic.

I want I-No's Korean #R theme.

Whats the track called, I'v got the album....

[TheRealBobMan]

Blacklight Babe. I should have it too, I just want it to be in the game.

I like it better than I-No's current theme, though the version from Sound Alive is a little better and I'd be happy with that as well.

Edited July 4, 2013 by TheRealBobMan

[Vashimus]

@Destin, I have to disagree. One of the worst and most annoying things you can do to a special move is have its input directly overlap that of another special move. Controlling your character is supposed to feel natural. Having Yoga Flame overlap with Yoga Fire just makes inputting what you want uncomfortably stiff. Sooner or later, you're gonna get pissed you keep getting Yoga Flame instead of a fireball when you're holding back. Changing Yoga Flame to QCB was a brilliant decision Sirlin made, and one that Capcom followed through with in future installments. As for 360, it's not like anyone does the full motion anyway, might as well be called a 270. I do find that more natural to do than 632146, I'll admit. But hey, opinions, we all know how those are.

Anyways, I really wouldn't worry about execution. Daisuke has said before that he likes the feel and difficulty of GG perfectly how it is. No need to worry about Chemical Love being changed to 214+K or anything like that.

[Volt]

You guys, not that there's much of anything to discuss anyway, but Jesus Christ you've been arguing about input difficulty for at least a dozen pages and I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon. It's not like there's any way for us to affect Arcsys' design process in the first place.

We are in the 4th loop of the FRC discussion. And the guys at Arcsys should actually read this thread. I've seen some posts here that have excellent suggestions about game designing that most companies could use.

[Yukikaze]

It's not like there's any way for us to affect Arcsys' design process in the first place.

Not purchasing their stuff... low sales (VS predicted) would certainly get Arc to rethink certain things, ask Xbox owners

Edited July 6, 2013 by Yukikaze

[Silmerion]

Not purchasing their stuff... low sales would certainly get Ark to rethink alot things, ask Xbox owners

Low sales would certainly allow us to have an (indirect) effect on Arcsys' design process, but realistically, who reading this thread hasn't already decided that they're going to buy the game? A few dozen people? A few hundred at most?

[Yukikaze]

Low sales would certainly allow us to have an (indirect) effect on Arcsys' design process, but realistically, who reading this thread hasn't already decided that they're going to buy the game? A few dozen people? A few hundred at most?

Absolutely true, practically everyone here will purchase... especially if CPs near instantaneous pre order sell out is anything to go by.

[jhones]

Give me a true sound !!! Oh yeah !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_5eIfIeZHg&feature=youtu.be

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Dude, that version of Suck a Sage is old, back from the old GGX days

[BladeOfJustice7]

I'm certain everyone is aware that the GGXrd site has updated with an english version of "The wait for Guilty Gear is over". Judging by this site update, the fact that the announcement trailer had english subtitles, and Daisuke coming to E3 next year. I can see ArcSys is trying to get a stronger presence in North America in coming years, most particularly with GG.

I look forward to what they intend doing to appeal to us.

[kosmos badgirl]

Time to revive this thread with something interesting.

"It's going to be all about BlazBlue from the autumn forward," Kidooka noted, "and hopefully we can keep that energy going among gamers for the new Guilty Gear coming next year. [Guilty Gear director Daisuke] Ishiwatari is really working hard to push beyond the skills they've cultivated over the past 15 years and express the game in a new way. It's something that looks like 2D graphics; 3D visuals that won't disappoint fans, and it's something I hope you look forward to."

Check the link, really interesting stuff.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/24/4551968/arc-system-works-boss-celebrates-25-years-of-somehow-staying-in

In case we had any doubt, the arcade version at least will be released next year.

[Silmerion]

Which means Xrd will come out on consoles in late 2014/early 2015, and the +R patch for AC should be available shortly afterward! Awesome.

[Jocelot]

Oh man, hope burns bright! Seems like it's been ages since Xrd was announced... you think we'll see some new footage at TGS in September?