The DMK Posted December 30, 2013 Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) Good to hear that all. I agree that Dizzy will definitely be in at some point. I also agree about the direction. I mean it is a full blown sequel, so it is obviously going to have big changes, but I'm liking it. The new RC mechanics are great, opening up options and reducing some technical barriers. Should make it more of a combo sandbox IMO. I don't want to get into the whole whether or not technical barriers to entry should be reduced debate, but I don't mind not having to practice super tight timing with everything. It isn't like the game will suddenly be easy. The comeback mechanic looks to me like it is nicely balanced, like you have to really consider whether it is worth using. I am also totally fine with losing force breaks and all. They were fun I guess, but we all know it isn't exactly ground breaking stuff. I never would have considered the sigil mechanic for Ky, but it is a creative way to enhance a cornerstone of his game (fireballs and all). When people get good with it I can imagine it being used to reduce a lot of your opponent's options from full screen. Edited December 30, 2013 by The DMK
BladeOfJustice7 Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 interesting stuff I think all three improvements to GS would make it too strong of a move. Personally, I want Ky to be somewhat of an average run of the mill character, so long as he's dead even in most of not all of his matchups, and he's as fun/versatile as he's always been that's all that matters to me. I would hate for Ky to be too good a character, to the point where you might as well play him instead of more complex characters like Eddie and Millia Rage. I would really like for Ky's VT, to have more untech with outside of CH though, since they got rid of the AC follow up to VT, thereby removing his oki opportunities in most situations.
king of heart Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 I have no doubt that dizzy will be in this game eventually. This is the GG followup I always wanted, I think this game looks significantly better than Slash, WAY better than AC and AC+R. I am not only impressed they are going in this direction, but GREATLY surprised. The changes to the characters are ambitious, creative, intelligent, and open more doors for creativity and action rather than reduce options. Everything seems to be adding accessible complexity. When I look at SF4 and all the bad mechanics, intentions, failures, and short-sighted changes, I walk away knowing that I could have made something better. With this game, I am sure I would have no chance of ever making something better. You are probably right that I did say that and mean it, but if I didn't support this game I would be doing all of fighting games a disservice. I may not have time to play this game like I once did, but I will certainly be taking names from a bunch of new kids who have no idea what's really going on. Let me get this straight . . . You really think that AC+R SUCKS !?
redsilversnake Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 Let me get this straight . . . You really think that AC+R SUCKS !? Maybe he just doesn't like AC in general? I know there were people who disliked the new mechanics, so even if +R fixed some of the balance issues, I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of those who's still averse to it.
DaiAndOh Posted December 31, 2013 Posted December 31, 2013 Accent Core and AC+R are very different from past GGXX games.
Henaki Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 (edited) Let me get this straight . . . You really think that AC+R SUCKS !? He never said it sucks, he just said he likes the older games better. But maybe he does think that, who knows! I think the older games are better designed, fundamentally, but I think Slash and AC have way better balance and characters are in general, more powerful in a more homogenized way that's not obvious. The people who like #R more tend to enjoy character strength and variety more than anything. Power for the sake of power isn't as interesting when it reduces decision trees. What's hard to argue is if the old games, if they were balanced through character strength instead of making everyone vortexworld into 60% (which is how AC is balanced, generally), would have more options. I actually think the older games have better character variety, but because of balance issues, are about as interesting as AC. I would rather have character variety and balance, tho. If Daisuke's in charge as the game develops further, I think it will stay that way. He likes broken stuff and high character variety from how he designs. Slash through AC had more emphasis on balance as the highest priority. The reason I dislike AC is the 25% meter options are basically the best options all the time, so you rarely see supers or RCs. They added mecahnics that were too powerful and made other mechanics way less useful. It's better if the more powerful mechanics are versatile rather than one dimensional (emphasis on RCs over Force Breaks), because then there's more options in teh game. This is a really general philosophy tho, and it's not super absolute with how AC turned out (some things definitely added more variety and decision trees). I just think alternate universe AC where it used #R design philosophies would be a lot better is all. AC ain't a bad game though. At all. It's better than most FGs by a long mile. I just think older GG design philosphies are way better, and they are showing in this new game which I like a lot. Edited January 1, 2014 by Henaki
king of heart Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 He never said it sucks, he just said he likes the older games better. But maybe he does think that, who knows! I think the older games are better designed, fundamentally, but I think Slash and AC have way better balance and characters are in general, more powerful in a more homogenized way that's not obvious. The people who like #R more tend to enjoy character strength and variety more than anything. Power for the sake of power isn't as interesting when it reduces decision trees. What's hard to argue is if the old games, if they were balanced through character strength instead of making everyone vortexworld into 60% (which is how AC is balanced, generally), would have more options. I actually think the older games have better character variety, but because of balance issues, are about as interesting as AC. I would rather have character variety and balance, tho. If Daisuke's in charge as the game develops further, I think it will stay that way. He likes broken stuff and high character variety from how he designs. Slash through AC had more emphasis on balance as the highest priority. The reason I dislike AC is the 25% meter options are basically the best options all the time, so you rarely see supers or RCs. They added mecahnics that were too powerful and made other mechanics way less useful. It's better if the more powerful mechanics are versatile rather than one dimensional (emphasis on RCs over Force Breaks), because then there's more options in teh game. This is a really general philosophy tho, and it's not super absolute with how AC turned out (some things definitely added more variety and decision trees). I just think alternate universe AC where it used #R design philosophies would be a lot better is all. AC ain't a bad game though. At all. It's better than most FGs by a long mile. I just think older GG design philosphies are way better, and they are showing in this new game which I like a lot. I have to agree that SLASH is defiantly one of the best GG games and that some FBs are retarded like BBU and Super Drill.
HoudiniJr100 Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 I have to agree that SLASH is defiantly one of the best GG games and that some FBs are retarded like BBU and Super Drill. big bang upper is awesome! ...fafnir however is plain weird sometimes...then again I don't seem to get the input for TR:Alpha follow-up done correctly.
BladeOfJustice7 Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 big bang upper is awesome! ...fafnir however is plain weird sometimes...then again I don't seem to get the input for TR:Alpha follow-up done correctly. You're probably inputting TR too late after fafnir, you don't really have to that much time to hit confirm off fafnir to go into TR. By the time you input fafnir, you should already be inputting TR. You can even cancel some of the last frames of fafnir straight into TR. Interesting discussion on balancing this game. I just hope variety won't affect the utility and enjoyment of this game very much. Ogawa + #R Eddie was plain retarded strong from what I saw. So I'm hoping that we won't be seeing any characters that just skews the utility of the roster.
Jocelot Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 Yeah these are interesting opinions. I was actually kinda scared people wouldn't "be on board" fully with Xrd because of the smaller initial roster and the older school, #Reload base the game seems to be building off of, especially considering how much the series has changed (especially in ^ Core). But I think the games will definitely have a peaceful co-existence with one another. I don't even see people 'leaving' AC for Xrd because right now the games are so different. Well, at least for a while, I dunno.
king of heart Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 I don't even see people 'leaving' AC for Xrd because right now the games are so different. Well, at least for a while, I dunno. Well if ended up returning to AC, that would be because of "Danger Time!" that shit is so stupid and i don't know what they were having when they came up with that idea.
Jocelot Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 Ahh, almost forgot about Danger Time. I'm... still undecided about it. I feel we won't see how much it sucks/ how little it sucks until the game drops, unfortunately, lol.
Hecatom Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) I actually don't see myself leaving AC for Xrd, Chipp looks awful and Testament isn't any where near, not to mention that seeing them using #R as the basics (the GG that i actually could say that i hate along with MC) is just ugh inducing, in fact many friends seem to be on the same page due them dropping many things that they love from AC and AC+R (In a way is good since i wouldn't have problems having people playing the game with me if i end hating Xrd). BTW i hope that they remove danger time, the whole idea behind it sound stupid TBH Edited January 2, 2014 by Hecatom
Henaki Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) Well if ended up returning to AC, that would be because of "Danger Time!" that shit is so stupid and i don't know what they were having when they came up with that idea. Danger Time being removed put a lot of faith in me. A lot of games will add a mechanic and go "well, it sucks, how do we retool this thing?" and instead, Arc just scrapped it basically. Capcom would have tried and failed to rework the mechanic, just look at SFxT lol. It's super, super fucking scary to spend development time on something and just gut it completely, but it's better for the game's health. A lot of development is just reiteration, but you have to know when to just cut something totally. It's the equivilent of removing a scene in a movie because it doesn't fit the tone or themes presented already. It cost money, and people are scared to waste that money. A really hard part about development is separating what needs iteration, and what needs to be removed. Arc made that distinction very well, and scrapped a shitty mechanic. Good on them. That tells me they have smart designers. I'm pretty sure they removed it, or at least the dumb version they had a loketest ago, from what reports said. Edited January 2, 2014 by Henaki
Hecatom Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 IIRC Danger Time is still there and going from the description for the last local test it happens at "random" or some shit like that, i agree that they have intelligent designers but at the same time they also seem to be stuborn from time to time (lets not forget Tager)
Calamitus Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 Danger time rarely happens during clashes (how many clashes do you see per match?). I think bitching about it is baseless.
Fenrir Werwolf Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 IIRC Danger Time is still there and going from the description for the last local test it happens at "random" or some shit like that, i agree that they have intelligent designers but at the same time they also seem to be stuborn from time to time (lets not forget Tager) Considering that clashes are not THAT frequent I wouldn't worry much
king of heart Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 Danger time rarely happens during clashes (how many clashes do you see per match?). I think bitching about it is baseless. I don't i think it's baseless when it comes from someone who did play the game!
The DMK Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 I think all three improvements to GS would make it too strong of a move. Personally, I want Ky to be somewhat of an average run of the mill character, so long as he's dead even in most of not all of his matchups, and he's as fun/versatile as he's always been that's all that matters to me. I would hate for Ky to be too good a character, to the point where you might as well play him instead of more complex characters like Eddie and Millia Rage. I would really like for Ky's VT, to have more untech with outside of CH though, since they got rid of the AC follow up to VT, thereby removing his oki opportunities in most situations. You are likely right that all 3 of the buffs would be a bit excessive. I don't really mind the lesser damage, so if I picked anything it would be faster start-up. You still wouldn't be able to just throw it out any old time, but whenever I land a GS I feel like it is more because my opponent was caught off guard (because I rarely use it). I understand that is the point of a mix-up, to catch your opponent off guard, but once I land a GS I am like "OK, retire that move for a while". More of a gimmick to me. I also agree with VT being improved. I see what you are saying about the tier stuff. I don't need Ky to be top tier, but I'd like him to be a bit better. When you look at the weaker characters it is usually like they lack x tool, they have no range, they don't have any good pokes etc. Ky's framework is good, he has pokes, he has tools, he can keep the pressure going with some meter. IMO the chief issue is a lack of damage. I am sure there are other characters with that as their main problem as well. Assuming S to D tiers, Ky could be a solid mid to high B (actually don't people see him as B in AC...? It has been a while since I have looked at that stuff). When he was top tier in /, it seemed to me like it was mainly from his ridiculous fireballs. It was a bit too...silly. As for Danger Time, my thoughts were clashes don't happen often, but if king of hearts says it seems problematic and he played the game, I am curious. KOH: Did clashes seem like they were happening more or something? A bigger window?
Kitsoru Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 I don't i think it's baseless when it comes from someone who did play the game! How many times DID it pop up in the last loketest, then? I don't recall anyone mentioning it coming up since this loketest when they made it less frequent.
TheRealBobMan Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 Danger time rarely happens during clashes (how many clashes do you see per match?). I think bitching about it is baseless. If you play Smash with items on, an explosive will rarely ever spawn in front of you while you're mid-animation and can take no action to avoid getting hit by it, but it can still happen. Some kinds of random are not enjoyable for the majority of players in skill based games. Though I don't know a whole bunch about how it works. Would it only trigger on clashes that leave both players even? Can you force the other guy into a disadvantage while triggering danger time and do bullshit damage at the start of a round? We'd need a lot more information, but in general people are going to be averse to random effects that aren't fully explained. What if it is as stupid as tripping in Brawl? Not that ASW is that stupid, but... GG wasn't always as good as it is now, and new ideas can lead to mistakes.
Hecatom Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 Danger time rarely happens during clashes (how many clashes do you see per match?). I think bitching about it is baseless. LMAO, Just because it "rarely" happens it doesn't mean that we can't discuss the validity as a mechanic, specially when the way that it functions is questionable at best
king of heart Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 How many times DID it pop up in the last loketest, then? I don't recall anyone mentioning it coming up since this loketest when they made it less frequent. Let's just say if you tried to 6P Sol's BB and you where late by a couple of frames then welcome to "Danger Time"
TheRealBobMan Posted January 3, 2014 Posted January 3, 2014 Which character's 6P vs BB? That could mean different things depending on if it's May's 6P or Millia's 6P.
Delrian Posted January 3, 2014 Posted January 3, 2014 He's talking about the general difference between anti airing and clashing.
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