Why does the FGC like stupid shit and what can we do about it? (My take on scene growth)

[tataki]

Straight up, statements that my group is better than their group. The quotes really make it seem elitist, like those gents aren't really members of the FGC. Additionally, the proverb is "horse to water," not "donkey to water," making it more insulting than usual, and you're pretty much comparing the people who don't understand the game to idiot donkeys who won't drink water even when it's in front of them (wouldn't bother to find information even if it were right in front of their face).

Actually I thought of the phrase in a different language and forgot that in English it's about a horse rather than a donkey. I'll fix it, but it won't change the fact that you see what you want to see in the text. If you want to get insulted, you'll get insulted and there's really nothing I can do about it without neutering the message so much that it doesn't convey any strong points anymore.

"like those gents aren't really members of the FGC"

Umm ok? I don't see myself as a member of the "FGC" so what's your point? When I use the term FGC it's to describe all the current phenomena that wasn't there before the 09' blowup. Streammonsters, celeb fanboys etc.

Edited July 15, 2013 by tataki

[Rhiya]

I do believe that you can say it nicely and get the same point across without the vitriol. I don't personally take offense, but I think it's really easy to see how someone might.

"like those gents aren't really members of the FGC"

Umm ok? I don't see myself as a member of the "FGC" so what's your point? When I use the term FGC it's to describe all the current phenomena that wasn't there before the 09' blowup. Streammonsters, celeb fanboys etc.

I think all the acronym "FGC" means, to most people, is "fighting game community." Your definition of FGC is really odd. I mean, you play fighting games, you make really great vids to help people get into games, but you wouldn't say you're a member of the fighting game community?

[Chaoschao222]

If you want to get insulted, you'll get insulted

No, insults are insults regardless of whether you 'want' to be insulted.... The ones here in particular are very opinionated, but saying people don't enjoy things as much as "we" do, or that they like stupid shit is insulting to others. Whether it's your intention or not, those words are stating that they don't have as much fun as "us" due to what they like or how they play, and further, that they like stupid things.

I'll say I've only read the opening post and the past three or so before I made a post in the thread, so maybe some of this was already gone over...

There are some who can have more "legitimate enjoyment" mashing buttons in Marvel than some of the most technical players in Guilty Gear, that's just how entertainment works, you can't quantify fun or "appreciation" on a graph.

[TheRealBobMan]

I think most people would agree that some genres of games show off where the strategic depth lies a little bit better than fighting games do, even when you cherry pick a game with shallower strategic depth. A guy I used to work with played MOBA games and didn't play fighting games. He didn't see where the skill was.

I think a breakdown of some of the fundamental skill tests in fighting games would make for a good video series. You could do a video on yomi layers during oki for one matchup. Then a video on zoning for another matchup. Just keep running with it and do individual case studies, but try to focus on only one thing at a time. I'm sure anyone that wants to get into fighting games is going to pick up that "DPs are invincible and you should block them" really quick, so go into deeper yomi layers (like 4+) rather than showing off yomi layer 2 and moving on to a different scenario.

Just make sure you point out what GG does extremely well compared to other fighting games. There are very few useless moves, and certain tools lead to substantially more damage than other tools. Most people see Marvel doing those ToD combos off of just about any kind of poke if they have the meter and the assists, so I would think that subconsciously they don't see a point after they get past the superficial level where they can kind of understand what they're watching. To them it might seem like "whoever can react to mixup when forced to block and can do the big combos is going to win". If they see that a character can only get 20% damage off of a low, but upwards of 50% off of an overhead, they'll understand the risk-reward more. Especially so when you're looking at the near-instant overheads in Guilty where you have to take a guess, which turns off some people, but it's ok because you know the other guy wants the max damage so you block high and if you're wrong at least you have 4 more chances.

I don't know... I need to get back to work, so this post is poorly constructed. Discuss it till I have time to post bettah or sumtin

[zeth07]

I hate the mentality, but people like 'Hype'. Hype comes from "personalities". Imagine GG Xrd comes out and Daigo announces he'll get back into Guilty Gear. Yipes is commentating the matches, top US SFIV and Marvel players (like Wong, Chris G, Filipino Champ, ...) start playing Guilty Gear. Maximillian does a long running series of videos and "assist me" stuff with the GG characters. Gootecks & Mike Ross start a series "My guilty neighborhood". Instant popularity guaranteed and the scene will grow !

This is more or less how I see it as well.

I really don't think so. What makes people play a game is interest in the game, not in a celeb. Like you said, you know many people who follow mahvel drama but won't touch the game.

By your own logic people have to be interested in the game to play it, well those "celebs" are what can get people interested in the game. Even if people don't play the game, they can still be interested in it for those exact reasons, and that can cause growth (whether it is in viewers / sales / tournament players). There are players who don't even like the games they play, so in that sense they'll play even if they AREN'T interested in it because it is the game everyone else plays (or has the most money).

People play the popular games because they are the popular games, regardless of how good or bad anyone perceives them. Anyone who remotely follows video games understands this, perfect examples are Call of Duty and FFXIII. There's a vocal crowd within gaming sites that absolutely hate on those games, which makes it look like the general public opinion but in actuality it is a vocal minority because those games sell MILLIONS. SF4 / Marvel are the exact same way, and yet they get all the attention regardless.

That's coming from someone who was playing the game regularly at tournaments and who knows how long in his free time, and I guarantee you he will be playing it again sooner rather than later regardless of his own words about the game.

Expecting the actual scene to grow by making some tutorials is some pretty lofty expectations. Since you are just talking about information accessibility and understanding the game. It has to go way beyond that.

I just think there needs to be alot of networking going on I recall alex valle talking abit about that on his twitter. One of the reasons I think people like watching mvc3 is because of the hype and the players are pretty well known because every week we see them on NLBC and WNF/TRB

Case in point.

[Kikuichimonji]

Here are the things that I believe, in my own local scene, are holding Guilty Gear from becoming more popular.

• The game has LOTS of system mechanics, and quirks of the system, that are crucial for success. Dust, Roman Cancel, FRC, Tension gain penalty, Faultless Defense, Slashback, Burst, Dead Angle Attacks, Jump Install, air recovery, wakeup throw, character-specific gatlings, counter-hit, different hit effects (float, blowback, ground bounce, wallstick, ground slide, and wall bounce), proration/forced proration, Guard Bar. Not to mention that almost every character has their own special meter or gimmick to understand as well. There is so much going on that you have to sit down and read a lot before you can even play, unless you want to lose and think "wtf was that."
  
• Footsie in Guilty Gear is incredibly different than Capcom games. In fact, lots of the things that are solid in GG actually feel really scrubby coming from an SF background, because of the reliance on air moves in footsie. Getting used to working around Order Sol's Fafnir requires some mental reconditioning.
  
• All the cool stuff is rather difficult to do. I can't do Eddie Mawaru mixups -> Break the Law Shadow Gallery -> Drill FRC IAD j.s unblockables, and for someone new to fighting games in general, such things seem not only difficult, but superhuman. I know it's not, but that's how it looks. Putting together all these movement options is really difficult.
  
• Anime game players are still perceived as weaboos, unless they also perform well in other games. Some people are turned off by the art style.
  
• Guilty Gear isn't portrayed as hype.
  

People nowadays don't care about learning their games at a really deep level. They want to dick around and have fun. They don't have the patience for Guilty. There are two types of new players who get into Guilty Gear nowadays: People who really like the anime character designs, and people who credit it as an over-the-top game for experts and want to get in on that. People in the first category, however, are far more likely to go to Persona or Blazblue nowadays.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Kikuichimonji

[Rhiya]

• Guilty Gear isn't portrayed as hype.

More than anything else, -this- is absolutely fixable with very little effort. (If anyone watched GG pools at EVO while Steve was on the mic, I think he did a damn good job of keeping the commentary entertaining and making the matches seem really exciting. DUST... IMPOSSIBLE!!!) Good commentators aren't easy to find, but good commentators -- once you've got them -- will create hype in no time flat.

[Kikuichimonji]

More than anything else, -this- is absolutely fixable with very little effort. (If anyone watched GG pools at EVO while Steve was on the mic, I think he did a damn good job of keeping the commentary entertaining and making the matches seem really exciting. DUST... IMPOSSIBLE!!!) Good commentators aren't easy to find, but good commentators -- once you've got them -- will create hype in no time flat.

I agree.

[Dreize]

Get Yipes to commentate on GG.

Problem solved.

[nstalkie]

As for the mechanics thing: I always explain to people that you can look at it as options you can learn to use. Just integrate them into your gameplay over time and it'll become second nature. You don't have to immediately know about roman cancels, dead angle attacks, bursts, all of that. If you do know and use them, great ! But just start playing, try to have fun. Then later focus on integrating and starting to use new mechanics. You can't make people to start playing better, if they don't start to play in the first place.

As you may know the release of P4A in Europe had a ridiculous delay. Here's some of the comments I overheard on several different forums: "how will we be able to compete with the US when they've had access to the game much longer than us ?", "There are some people in Europe that are playing a pirated version of the game, so we won't be able to compete" and similar things. Japan had access to P4A much earlier than the US, yet I see people from the US being able to compete against them (proof: EVO top 3). I have friends that were playing a pirated version and I'm able to beat them. It's not impossible to catch up. By that logic, none of the older games should ever be touched by people who were not around since day 1. Awful, awful mentality ! (and btw ... how many times do these people complaining about the US being ahead, actually play against US people ?? How many of these people play SFIV where people in Japan/US/UK also had earlier access to, due to arcade machines ?). I see it as motivation: let's see if I can defeat these people that have been playing for much longer than me.

The whole difficult games thing is another discussion but many people use the perceived difficulty of a game as an excuse to never play them. How many times have I heard "I don't play (KOF/GG/VF/...) because it's too hard". Yes, you won't be able to pick up these games and expect to win against a seasoned player right from the get-go. But to use it as an excuse for not even trying it, is extremely poor IMHO. I personally see it as an accomplishment when I finally defeat that one player who always bodied me, when I learn that combo that seemed impossible to do when I started, etc... It's why I play the games. If I would pick up a game and instantly be the best at it, I would probably drop it immediately because there's no challenge.

Other mentalities I hate, but which do exist:

- I don't play the game because there is no scene over here (yeah, it won't start if everyone keeps telling themselves that)

- not really a part of this discussion but: I don't go to tournaments because there's no chance I'll win it (and you will probably never win anything with that mentality)

- not really a part of this discussion but: I don't go to sessions because the people are too good (PERFECT ! you have loads of people that will be able to help you ! Is it because you think people may laugh at your noobness ? I never saw that happen as long as you are humble and don't start saying you are the best player that ever walked the earth.)

Mentality problems are nearly impossible to change though. Atleast I can't think of anything right now to change it. If I'm confronted with the mentalities I described, I usually give my look on things if people are willing to listen to it.

[Sophisticat]

Like, whoa, tl;dr all over the place.

I think GG's issue is a cultural one -- SF was simply the first FG and it's appealed to the mainstream. Anime is more niche.

There's also the issue that the execution barrier is nothing to sneeze at. It's hard enough to learn one game, let alone several...

[tataki]

I'm trying to focus the direction of the discussion here:

Imagine there are 100 people in a room. 85 of them worship gootecks and only care for SF4. The other 15 saw some GG footage once and it thought looked cool. Focusing on the 85 may be tempting because 85 is a lot of people but it also may be futile. I say you find those other 15 people who were open minded enough to begin with, and see what you can do with them.

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Xrd has stirred some interest in GG, which I see quite a few in the community trying to cater to those interested, including your Guilty Bits.

I just don't think we can expect many to actually join into the game hardcore because of its reputation as a difficult game and the lack of established big name characters like Ryu, Wolverine, Zero etc, those attract people to play games a lot lets be real.

[Venussail91]

TC, I think I'm in love with you :P Seriously though, I have ranted/vented about this topic for YEARS now. My favorite fighters are BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, Tekken and Virtua Fighter BECAUSE of the understanding of both fighting game mechanics and the individual systems that you must have in order to get full enjoyment out of those games. There is no reason why someone cannot seek information to help step up their game, especially when people like you are vocal about where to find resources to get help. It's just a matter of putting the effort in, something that unfortunately too many players aren't willing to do and therefore miss out on some great games because of.

[TheRealBobMan]

You know those instant replay things they do in sports? We don't have quite the same tech they have to be able to do that, but what if someone made some short clips, anywhere from 5 to 20 seconds, illustrating stuff from basic understanding of frame advantage to slightly more complex ideas such as Ky keeping his opponent in ideal range (the kind of thing that's going to show up a lot, so popular characters to start)? Make them available for tourney streams.

In between matches, while stream dude is talking about the matchup or whatever, he/she can play the appropriate clip. Shorter ones would be appropriate for during character counter picking, and the longer ones for the span between matches while they set up and button check. Any matchup specific clips would be great when you know a certain player match is coming. That might be a bit much to put together, so even simple "Ky likes to do X as a basic strategy" played back to back with "Sol likes to do Y as basic strategy" before a match would be great. While they set up, the viewers get to see something that gives them a baseline of what to expect, since most people aren't going to know the nuances of every matchup before hand to get full enjoyment from watching. Then, actually seeing how the match plays out reinforces their new knowledge. To top that off, it'll be more exciting when someone deviates from by-the-book play because people will know that it's happening.

Does that seem like a good idea?

[Rhiya]

Makes sense.

It'd also be easy to do once you had the content -- extraordinarily easy, actually -- but you'd... need the content. Even if they're short, the amount of time it takes to make clips like that piles up incredibly quickly.

[tataki]

Makes sense.

It'd also be easy to do once you had the content -- extraordinarily easy, actually -- but you'd... need the content. Even if they're short, the amount of time it takes to make clips like that piles up incredibly quickly.

Or just pick highlights from the regular vids goldenrody uploads.

[TheRealBobMan]

To start off, screencap like a before-and-after screenshot for badass setups, like Sol doing Gunflame FRC Wild Throw. You see him start Gunflame, then the next image is the blue shockwave and Sol holding the guy by the face. Stick some text and lines on there to explain what just happened, like "Command throw starts before the flame goes active". Way less production value needed, but gets the point across. Whenever that's used in game, you can quickly cut that in between rounds. Or, you could replace the player/commentary cam with it since you don't need to see people 100% of the time.

Anji red butterfly to dash in low. First image is him shooting out the butterfly, second is some down arrows with the word "overhead" next to the butterfly, and the word "low" next to Anji. And the second image could easily be swapped out for butterfly to Anji Buster to catch someone trying to jump out, with some upward arrows and the words "NO JUMPING".

You could also hand draw them in MS Paint for extra laughs. That would let you put multiple examples for each scenario on one image. A short clip would be way better for this though, since if you're hand drawing I figure quick and dirty editing of clips might take less time anyway.

[skd]

mmm yeah, I intended to do similar match breakdown when bbcp hits! I remember seeing similar match review for select points for mvc2, lots of freeze frames. a lot of really good ideas, I wish I still had the video.

[edollarports]

We MADDEN now? But yeah, that shit is great.

[Agni]

- not really a part of this discussion but: I don't go to sessions because the people are too good (PERFECT ! you have loads of people that will be able to help you ! Is it because you think people may laugh at your noobness ? I never saw that happen as long as you are humble and don't start saying you are the best player that ever walked the earth.

Yeah, uh, speaking as a guy who has had this mentality for a long time...it can be REALLY hard to break this train of thought. It may seem really bizarre when you're actually good at a game but when you're not, it can be hard as fuck to deal. You go into a game knowing that you will get beaten 100+ times before you get one step towards getting better and for a long time you feel like you're not getting better at all.

FGs require a serious commitment to get enjoyment out of them. Before that...they aren't fun. Getting people to put that commitment forward is already hard as shit for games like SF or MvC, something niche like GG is gonna be even harder.

[mAc Chaos]

- not really a part of this discussion but: I don't go to sessions because the people are too good (PERFECT ! you have loads of people that will be able to help you ! Is it because you think people may laugh at your noobness ? I never saw that happen as long as you are humble and don't start saying you are the best player that ever walked the earth.)

I have a friend who says that. He says the reason is because he likes to talk shit and he can't if he's losing. :V

[Agni]

Okay, THAT is a dumb reason.

But for some people, it's more "it's embarassing to get bodied". And it is. Especially in an FG where one person just kicked your ass and you're like "wow, he just rolled over me so good, I look like a complete jackass". Shit, when my friend kill me in casuals I can barely look them in the face

[edollarports]

I guess that is a problem. I actually don't remember how I got through just getting bodied all day. It ended at some point though :x

[LoD776]

I see the FGC as a huge grotesque beast that crushes other fighting games and cries "When's Marvel." Sadly it can only be killed by another bigger beast just like it.