[CP] Kokonoe - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[InWithTheAshes]

There was actually a selection of translations posted on this Twitter account, listing some other changes adding to the ones listed above:

"Teleport no longer crosses up in the corner. Teleporting to a far graviton will put her in front of it, inside the graviton if close."

""When [black Hole] is used in the corner, it will activate offscreen."

"Koko can now only gatling into 6B from 5A and 2A, and 6B can now only gatling into 5C or 3C."

[Poultrygeist]

I dunno guys these changes seem kinda reasonable to me. She's still gonna be good at what she's good at (everything) just that people can't complain about us breaking the game anymore lol. I'm okay with it, least it's not a CS1 Rachel situation.

[MikelAL93]

Full list of Kokonoe changes thanks to Shoryuken.com's BBCP balance patch article.

• Character Combo Rate – Changed from 80% to 70%
  
• 6B – Can only be canceled to from 5A and 2A. Can now be canceled into 5C or 3C. The uncharged version now forces crouching.
  
• Jump C – Can now be blocked while crouching
  
• Jump 2C – Attack motion has changed. Kokonoe now moves upwards before attacking. On ground hit, it causes hitstun instead of instant knockdown. Now has landing recovery. Removed same move prorate.
  
• Gravity Gauge – Gauge expenditure and recovery are now both faster
  
• Activate – Only has a hitbox during combos, when the opponent is already being hit
  
• Equipment Number 06: Teleporting Layer Haze Ver1.24 – No longer crosses up when the opponent has their back to the corner. When teleporting to a far away Graviton, she appears in front of the Gravition. When teleporting to a close Graviton, she teleports on top of the Graviton.
  
• Equipment Number 03: Freezing Absolute Zero Ver4.32 – Deals less chip damage on block. On hit, the gatling gun portion has less hits. If she has over 50% gauge it will automatically activate her new Distortion Drive Equipment Number 08: Flying Heaven – Greed Climb.
  
• Equipment Number 07 – Gravity Jammer Dark Ver1.65 – When activated, it removes all Gravitons. No longer recovers Gravity Gauge during use. When used too close to the corner, the attack will now appear offscreen. Overdrive version added.
  
• Equipment Number 08: Flying Heaven – Greed Climb – New Distortion Drive
  

[Kurushii]

She's still good.

So for combos we lost...

- j.C > j.2C whiff loop (doesn't matter as we can still do j.C > j.D loop in the corner but may have to shorten with graviton gauge change. The full screen corner carry combo will be gone for good with j.2C having landing recovery.)

- 6[A] > 6B(2) route (hurts the less experienced Koko's that went basic routes always, can still do 6[A] > 22B route which is better. If from a bad combo starter midscreen you can just end the 6[A] into 236C. After j.236D you can just omit the 6[A] and go straight to 6B, which a lot of players do already even though it was less damage. In corner you can still do 6[A] > 5C > 236B.)

- [5D] j.C > j.236D (still possible to do combo wise but without OH on j.C it's meh.)

- Black Hole corner combos (no longer will work if too close to corner)

But we gained....

6B > 5C > 2C in corner

Edited February 13, 2014 by Kurushii
Misunderstood Black Hole change

[Maho]

Yeah if the only damage nerfs are the 10% on combo rate and less hits on 236C's minigun, she'll still do too much damage out of a lot of starters, for exemple my max damage corner combo out of corner CH5C does 8048 for 50% heat, the nerfs pretty much won't affect it and it should probably still be around 7k.

Now her mixup looks like to be on Terumi's level with thoses changes, she loses midscreen fireball mixup, corner fireball setups will be impossible to do anymore, and well with the lost of IOH those wouldn't be as much of a threat, 236C RC mixups are probably gone with auto super, what are you gonna do as a mixup? 6B all day?

Loss of corner BH setups was obvious and I think it's a good, but I'm a little disappointed with Arc Sys choices in the design here, I was hoping for a setup/mixup character with a more reasonable damage output and I get what, no mixups and stupid damage on some CHs?

Anyway I guess she will still be playable, but will she be any fun is another question.

[Loli Bacon]

What I'm guessing is that we have 0 mixups at all, so our setups aren't scary. We lose some oki and pressure midscreen, and even some pressure in the corner. We lost damage (not much).

And zoning matchups will be hard as hell without graviton activate.

I'm guessing she'll be a struggle.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah if the only damage nerfs are the 10% on combo rate and less hits on 236C's minigun, she'll still do too much damage out of a lot of starters, for exemple my max damage corner combo out of corner CH5C does 8048 for 50% heat, the nerfs pretty much won't affect it and it should probably still be around 7k.

Now her mixup looks like to be on Terumi's level with thoses changes, she loses midscreen fireball mixup, corner fireball setups will be impossible to do anymore, and well with the lost of IOH those wouldn't be as much of a threat, 236C RC mixups are probably gone with auto super, what are you gonna do as a mixup? 6B all day?

Loss of corner BH setups was obvious and I think it's a good, but I'm a little disappointed with Arc Sys choices in the design here, I was hoping for a setup/mixup character with a more reasonable damage output and I get what, no mixups and stupid damage on some CHs?

Anyway I guess she will still be playable, but will she be any fun is another question.

There may be new ways to mix up. It's not like anyone had any incentive to be especially creative with her when she could faceroll and win before. Now people will start looking.

[Loli Bacon]

There may be new ways to mix up. It's not like anyone had any incentive to be especially creative with her when she could faceroll and win before. Now people will start looking.

Can you think of anything outside of raw 6B with lightning oki?

[Ayane]

How about the classic jump mixup? Like Chie from P4U where you set up oki then jump and either do a falling j.B/j.A or a 2A/2B? Probably only works in the corner if it does work though.

[Errol]

who said it needs to be raw.

you have 5a/2a to cancel from.

you can use your oki to go for empty jump mixups.

you can go for an overhead after a jump in instead of going into a block string.

j2C doesn't knockdown so you can use j2C to go for a high/low after a blocked j.B

still have very free gatlings and copious amounts of jump cancel.

struggle. play makoto. please.

[Loli Bacon]

It works even now, the problem with that is it opens her up to DPs and anti-airs, because they're amazing in this game. Lightning isn't as good as Chie 2D, unfortunately. =/

[mAc Chaos]

You're supposed to be open to DPs when you're doing mixup...

[Loli Bacon]

who said it needs to be raw.

you have 5a/2a to cancel from.

you can use your oki to go for empty jump mixups.

you can go for an overhead after a jump in instead of going into a block string.

j2C doesn't knockdown so you can use j2C to go for a high/low after a blocked j.B

still have very free gatlings and copious amounts of jump cancel.

struggle. play makoto. please.

Oh, I do play Makoto. :v Those seem pretty okay, but we'll have to see the extent of the changes to j.2C first. I think my biggest issue is none of these are "safe"; the entire reason I played her in the first place. Having a character that forces respect is extremely nice in this game, considering how much mashing people do.

You're supposed to be open to DPs when you're doing mixup...

She still is even now vulnerable to DPs while doing mixups, but those new mixups suggested are even more unsafe is the problem. While now her mixups lose to DPs, it seems they'll lose to pokes in the patch now as well.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Loli Bacon

[TD]

l think shes going to be fine, mid tier at worst.

an especially important thing is how she went from being a great at everything char to something she was probably intended to do. and maybe that something wasnt supposed to be devastating mixup in the first place.

her neutral game will still be strong without activate hit, she still controls people on a whim, that's powerful

22b still very good

214x mixup got nerfed but ok, its still free pressure and 'respect', more than sure she'll be ok without the mixup.

isnt teleport still strong? super dp, movement, still good normals on top of everything else said, like damage and pressure. she will be perfectly fine.

once she drops im returning to her too, because playing with her already looks more fun. and, we have yet to see what new level of OP the new super may take her.

[TD]

also, come on, rachel/litchi, queens of respect. tao, haz, teru, they manage without having much to oki with but their limbs and their pressure can be insane. valk is the godfather of hitting people and he has to still commit to hard reads to bait dps and start/continue pressure, and hes the best char minus disowned koko.

[bakahyl]

If Kokonoe's only option to gattle into 6b is from a 2a or 5a, does that mean that you can mash her out of her overhead with just fast normals?

[Lucalibur]

If Kokonoe's only option to gattle into 6b is from a 2a or 5a, does that mean that you can mash her out of her overhead with just fast normals?

If common sense applies here and I'm not forgetting something about Kokonoe, yes. While that is the case for most overheads in Blazblue, being limited to 5A and 2A when trying to get your overhead out is...really weird. Even Ragna has better options to get his 6B out than that.

That being said, I don't think it's gonna hurt her too much. Frame trapping with her Cs causes a lot of pain, so people trying to be funny and mashing out of 6B after 5A\2A are gonna regret it. Also fireball making the damn thing safe for good measure.

[Maho]

I was actually already searching for "fair" mixups by playing without BH for the last 2 months, I spend a lot of time preparing a corner mixup video like the one I did for the midscreen fireball oki, anticipating the incoming BH nerf we were all expecting, and I kinda lost my time as almost nothing I found will work anymore.

The only thing you can still get for sure is the C superball combo into 236C freeze > 22B + TP mixup you probably saw Jiyuna use on his stream, A superball corner version can also be done.

Some corner fireball setups might be possible on high damage starters assuming graviton can still be cancelled by 6B, but you have to lose about 30-40% of the potential damage to do so, I'm not sure it's really something you want to do.

Trying to use the same thing midscreen makes the fireball setup rollable both ways unlike the setup we can do now, so it's pretty much useless and you might always go for max damage.

[Errol]

kokonoe just had so much broken stuff that it makes me wonder if there won't be more charges that weren't mentioned.

i think there will still be ways to get black hole out. and if you get black hole out, it should still be 5-6k if you pull it off.

i remember seeing tsuji use black hole just during pressure a number of times. but if that doesn't work in the corner, it might not matter so much.

[STenSatsu]

Even if for whatever reason her mixups and black whole are completely gone she'll still likely have great neutral and above average damage given the changes so far.

[Loli Bacon]

Even if for whatever reason her mixups and black whole are completely gone she'll still likely have great neutral and above average damage given the changes so far.

She'll be delegated to a Neutral character, then, as her zoning will probably lose to the other zoners hands down. The only way I was able to get in on Nu/Mu was (outside of just running at their face) using 6D/9D 236D (watch for hit or CH) 22C in. Her zoning tools aren't exactly the best, but they are indeed good when augmented by her normals.

That being said, her combo rate dropping 10% actually hurts her overall damage across the board by 12.5%. Considering a lot of my hitconfirms outside of strong starters were already in the 1700-2100, new damage will be about 1500-1900. Now that we've lost mixups, her max damage plummets and she'll have to rely on landing strong normals at neutral (lol at that idea), landing a 22B at neutral (still mediocre damage), or landing a stagger during a string.

She'll probably end up mid tier, but I'm just upset they didn't just tone down her damage + remove black hole, as everything else was fine (IOH was 19f startup, same as Jin and also required meter/setup to combo from/6B being 26f startup; mash it/DP it)

Or if they wanted a zoning character, keep her damage the same, keep graviton hitbox on activate, and just remove her mixups. Hitting everything at once might make her Terumi tier.

[DC]

It works even now, the problem with that is it opens her up to DPs and anti-airs, because they're amazing in this game. Lightning isn't as good as Chie 2D, unfortunately. =/

Banishing Ray is enough to set up air tight jb or empty jump

Also agreed about jC, that was the only change I don't agree with, it's almost always hilariously telegraphed

[Poultrygeist]

She'll be delegated to a Neutral character, then, as her zoning will probably lose to the other zoners hands down. The only way I was able to get in on Nu/Mu was (outside of just running at their face) using 6D/9D 236D (watch for hit or CH) 22C in. Her zoning tools aren't exactly the best, but they are indeed good when augmented by her normals.

That being said, her combo rate dropping 10% actually hurts her overall damage across the board by 12.5%. Considering a lot of my hitconfirms outside of strong starters were already in the 1700-2100, new damage will be about 1500-1900. Now that we've lost mixups, her max damage plummets and she'll have to rely on landing strong normals at neutral (lol at that idea), landing a 22B at neutral (still mediocre damage), or landing a stagger during a string.

She'll probably end up mid tier, but I'm just upset they didn't just tone down her damage + remove black hole, as everything else was fine (IOH was 19f startup, same as Jin and also required meter/setup to combo from/6B being 26f startup; mash it/DP it)

Or if they wanted a zoning character, keep her damage the same, keep graviton hitbox on activate, and just remove her mixups. Hitting everything at once might make her Terumi tier.

Not sure why you think that. She'll still be able to shoot fireballs and lay traps, just that there's actual consequences for doing so now. I don't think her zoning is going to be shit at all. As for losing mixups, we still have plenty of those too. We still have 22X, overheads, lows, ways to catch people out of rolls. I really don't think she got hit that hard all things considered. She's still going to be good at everything, just not in a way that invalidates everyone else.

[Maho]

Banishing Ray is enough to set up air tight jb or empty jump

One day people will understand that all 22B okis can always be late neutral teched, why you see 22B now as oki is because of BH setups that use it as an anti roll tool. If it's used outside of that situation, the player is just being lazy and needs to learn her better setups.

[Kurushii]

From Stunedge:

"ココノエ、5B>6A、6A>5Bは一回のガト中にそれぞれ一回まで。5Cがガード時jc不可。Aバンカー5Aが何度やっても繋がらない。Bバンカー5Cとかもやや怪しい。重力は相変わらず完全無敵＋ガー不。OD重力は違いわからず。新技は完全に忘れてたから知らない。"

"J2Cは気持ち分ちょっと遅い感じだからJ2Cスカしコンはないかもね。あと気のせいかもしれないけど超火球(A版)の持続短い。地上喰らい6B>A雷は何回やってもだめだった。"

"ココノエ、B系やC系の硬直判定もあんま変わってないしやっぱり3C強いままだし、引力斥力も影響強いし面白そうなキャラでした。"

"in short, 5B>6A can only loop once, 5C not jcable on block, 6B>22A doesnot combo otg, 236A>5A fails, gravity didnt change much"