[CP] News & Gameplay Discussion

[TD]

You know if you could quit, you would have done it by now. Face the truth, we're all tsundere for this game. It's why we keep coming back.

I was joking, sir. I wouldn't quit bb even if nine did get basketball infinities (please DONT give this to her, aksys!).

Not unless rachel is barred from the game... Then I seriously would quit.

[Poultrygeist]

What you call being "tsundere for the game" is actually a desire to not see a solid, well put together fighter go down the shitter due to horrible balance decisions and a bloated roster.  I hope that the next Blazblue pulls a Xrd and trims the fat down to only like 14 or so characters.  

[NecroTheReaper]

They added in a dead character that had an overlapping playstyle with an already existing character. You tell me if they're roster is based on logic lol

[Vulcan422]

I hope that the next Blazblue pulls a Xrd and trims the fat down to only like 14 or so characters.  

IIRC Mori said he was interested in doing something to the effect of "utilizing the Xrd engine for BB".

[entnervt]

What you call being "tsundere for the game" is actually a desire to not see a solid, well put together fighter go down the shitter due to horrible balance decisions and a bloated roster. I hope that the next Blazblue pulls a Xrd and trims the fat down to only like 14 or so characters.

Do you really think that Xrd's cast is small because of balance adjustments? Don't make me laugh. Remember GGACR? That's what's going to happen with Xrd too and it's a good thing tbh. And it's a good thing in BB too. BB isn't that bad balanced, if you think it is you never played a really bad balanced fighting game.

[StylisH]

Extend seemed pretty alright. Not too many MUs went so far tilted as 7:3.

 

CP they added a couple new mechanics and completely overhauled the Combo system, favoring time based combos instead of proration based ones. They also added 7 characters and rehashed the existing ones. For all of that CP1.0 remained pretty well balanced. Even vs Koko, the most notable balance error we've had in a while, everyone could still win, which is more than a lot of other games can say when talking about high tiers. While 1.1 did make some questionable decisions (Makoto and Tager nerfs, Azrael Buffs) The tiers certainly did get closer, showing they do have a sense of how to balance a game.

 

I have renewed faith in their competence because it looks like they nerfed the living daylights out of ODraid's recovery and time in the next edition. We'll have to see where they take it.

 

Extend was about as good as it got in balance, not to say that it didn't have issues, but with the exception of Tager match ups, it was pretty solid.

 

They added in a dead character that had an overlapping playstyle with an already existing character. You tell me if they're roster is based on logic lol

 

My vote sir, is no.  Just hell no.  We are about to have 3 or 4 cloned (story wise) characters of the same chick (Noel, Lambda, Nu, and Mu) who isn't even in the game yet (Saya). 

 

Logic?  Nah

 

Do you really think that Xrd's cast is small because of balance adjustments? Don't make me laugh. Remember GGACR? That's what's going to happen with Xrd too and it's a good thing tbh. And it's a good thing in BB too. BB isn't that bad balanced, if you think it is you never played a really bad balanced fighting game.

 

+R was pretty balanced.  It was AC that had the issues with Testament and Eddie (0 bad matchups?  Really?) 

 

You are right though, CP isn't insanely imbalanced (ala MvC) but there is more of a defined low tier than there was in Extend for damn sure.

 

HOWEVER

 

A larger cast is not exactly a good thing.  We're getting to the point where it is actually getting to be a bit much.  More matcups, less overall balance.  Tager, Tsubaki, and Makoto somehow got WORSE, and we still have issues with Bullet, Izayoi, Amane, Kagura, etc.  It's become much easier to determine who's lower on the totem pole and who's higher, and to me that spells trouble.  I'm just saying.

[Airk]

The ever increasing cast isn't just an issue from a balance perspective though.

 

It's also an issue from a uniqueness standpoint and, most of all, from a MATCHUP standpoint.  I've been playing CP since the U.S. release and there are still easily half a dozen matchups where I basically say "I don't even know WTF this character does" because I've basically never played against them.   Everytime you make the roster bigger, you make it harder and harder for people to actually learn all the matchups.

 

And the obvious followup question is:  What do we GAIN by adding more characters? Basically nothing at this point.  If you can't find a character that you like in the game at this point, you should go play something else.  And it's not like anyone seriously USES the whole roster.

[SoWL]

 which is more than a lot of other games can say when talking about high tiers. 

His own fault for Cloud being his favorite character

 

 

i wish i could get only as nerfed as all your guys's mains.

 

 

Only half my character is left.

CP Nu was 1.5 characters, now she is all alone.

[Narroo]

Extend seemed pretty alright. Not too many MUs went so far tilted as 7:3.

 

CP they added a couple new mechanics and completely overhauled the Combo system, favoring time based combos instead of proration based ones. They also added 7 characters and rehashed the existing ones. For all of that CP1.0 remained pretty well balanced. Even vs Koko, the most notable balance error we've had in a while, everyone could still win, which is more than a lot of other games can say when talking about high tiers. While 1.1 did make some questionable decisions (Makoto and Tager nerfs, Azrael Buffs) The tiers certainly did get closer, showing they do have a sense of how to balance a game.

 

I have renewed faith in their competence because it looks like they nerfed the living daylights out of ODraid's recovery and time in the next edition. We'll have to see where they take it.

I'm not sure that Dissidia is a good example.  That game's battle system, I'd say. isn't even complete.  Back in the first one, you could turtle indefinitely.  Attacking actually put you at a distavantage. 

[D.R.F.]

Extend was about as good as it got in balance, not to say that it didn't have issues, but with the exception of Tager match ups, it was pretty solid.

My vote sir, is no. Just hell no. We are about to have 3 or 4 cloned (story wise) characters of the same chick (Noel, Lambda, Nu, and Mu) who isn't even in the game yet (Saya).

Logic? Nah

+R was pretty balanced. It was AC that had the issues with Testament and Eddie (0 bad matchups? Really?)

You are right though, CP isn't insanely imbalanced (ala MvC) but there is more of a defined low tier than there was in Extend for damn sure.

HOWEVER

A larger cast is not exactly a good thing. We're getting to the point where it is actually getting to be a bit much. More matcups, less overall balance. Tager, Tsubaki, and Makoto somehow got WORSE, and we still have issues with Bullet, Izayoi, Amane, Kagura, etc. It's become much easier to determine who's lower on the totem pole and who's higher, and to me that spells trouble. I'm just saying.

Well technically in CP 1.1 tager got better because his matchups became less silly. Tsubaki and makoto there wasn't an excuse for the evils done to them, and frankly im pretty sure team blue didn't care to give one anyhow.

[NecroTheReaper]

My view on their balance jobs so far: they got the job done in the most stupid way. I remember people complaining about 1.1 changes bevause they made good characters a but worse in really stupid ways. Valk was probaby the best example of 1.1. Nerfed a lot of stuff in ways that didn't really help the opponent, but just made his job more difficult.

[entnervt]

To clarify, i didn't mean that more chars = better fg. Just that BBCP isn't that unbalanced. And that a game with less chars is not necessarily better balanced. For a game with a roster like BBCP it's fairly well balanced regarding mid to toptiers. The lows are of course really punished for their existence (I don't know any other reason why).

[TD]

New chars are fun. It is interesting to see what new design the devs come up with.

Celica gets plenty of hype even though a few people aren't too interested in her design. Same with lambda. They were unexpected and a bit underwhelming from my perspective: more people would like jubei or nine sooner than they would celica and lambda.

@balance, I think aksys does a good job with balance. I feel the top and very bottom tiers are usually the problem in every bb game. Before cs2 bb was sort of unorganized. Onward, the balance was noticeable, but the problem existed, among other issues.

[Verimeloni]

Making more games and updating balance without adding new characters would be stupid. People keep coming to fighting games iteration after iteration 'cause of new characters and with ArcSys style of character policy (character + a new song + possibly a stage + possibly a new versus theme) every new character is a bonus, especially when they don't release that many characters at the same time with the exception of CP 1.0.

 

Balance is important but it doesn't make having fun while playing any less important.

[Angry Guy of DE]

Balance should look at the way a character works on their gameplan:

Does this character have the tools to achieve their gameplan?  If no then something should be tweaked so they are able to do that properly.

 

If yes you then to ask if it is hard to do and how many mistakes can be made without losing.  If it is Difficult to do and doesn't allow many mistakes then it should be tweaked so that it works better or that it doesn't punish them (or be sent back to square one) if a minor mistake is made.

If it isn't hard to do and allows a large margin for error then it should be tweaked so that it isn't "braindead" or flow-charty because it is very effective and allows errors to a degree that a less skilled player can win against a better player because of the character's tools.

My belief is that any character played correctly and is able to do their gameplan should appear broken.  The keyword is "correctly" where you can see the difference between a basic Azrael and Dogura. 

[Myoro]

What you call being "tsundere for the game" is actually a desire to not see a solid, well put together fighter go down the shitter due to horrible balance decisions and a bloated roster.  I hope that the next Blazblue pulls a Xrd and trims the fat down to only like 14 or so characters.  

 

I disagree, the balance was way worse in CT where we only had upwards of eight characters to deal with. If anything CP is prolly the best edition so far and it's crawling up the shitter like some kinda sewer dweller. There are things I miss from Extend, but I wouldn't go back there if someone payed me. Not enough game speed. I need my game speed mane.

 

 

I'm not sure that Dissidia is a good example.  That game's battle system, I'd say. isn't even complete.  Back in the first one, you could turtle indefinitely.  Attacking actually put you at a distavantage. 

No one's denying that Dissidia was a bad game in terms of balance and game mechanics. But then again I could list ten worse than that, and then ten worse than each of those. My exposure to the very depths of kusoge is what lets me appreciate BB as much as I do.

 

The ever increasing cast isn't just an issue from a balance perspective though.

 

It's also an issue from a uniqueness standpoint and, most of all, from a MATCHUP standpoint.  I've been playing CP since the U.S. release and there are still easily half a dozen matchups where I basically say "I don't even know WTF this character does" because I've basically never played against them.   Everytime you make the roster bigger, you make it harder and harder for people to actually learn all the matchups.

 

And the obvious followup question is:  What do we GAIN by adding more characters? Basically nothing at this point.  If you can't find a character that you like in the game at this point, you should go play something else.  And it's not like anyone seriously USES the whole roster.

I agree up until the last paragraph. I think adding new characters can be a problem if not addressed. When adding 7 new characters to the cast, a dev should make sure they're capable of something the others aren't, that it factors in heavily enough to where it can be called their uniqueness, and that that uniqueness is what gives them their edge. Personally I think the most unique character of the added 7 in CP is Amane. Bullet, Izayoi, Koko, and Kags remind me of bootleg versions of Tsubaki, Arakune, Rachel, and Noel respectively. Celeca looks like she could be the epitome of the problem, her gimmick is she hits stuff... and they take damage.

 

On the point of adding new characters, new characters are exiting,  and if a game was made featuring only the cast from the last game, people'd want a refund.

[D.R.F.]

Well when things get hit they should take damage.   But idk about Izayoi. I mean true her gameplan is surprisingly similar to Ara in they they play passive until they both have the resources to ruin people, but the way that's done is different. Izayoi doesn't have damage like Arakune, but she has a mixup gameplan reminiscent of I-No (albeit worse but that is team blue's fault for making a shitty character,) I and I like her for it. I do worry about the two new characters though, because although I like Celica, she just looks so lame to play. Like they went Carl = hard, Relius = not hard, Celica = if Relius was too hard to play. And what they did to Nu's playstyle because of Lambda being a "new character" in CP just pisses me off, from a design standpoint.

[Effenhoog]

I'm really baffled by how much complaining there has been about game balance lately.  Some characters are better, sure. There's always room for improvement just like every other game ever made, but comparatively speaking CP balance seems pretty fantastic.

 

Maybe I'm just getting old but average game balance these days seems pretty spectacular, especially compared to 5-10 years ago.  If P4A Elizabeth/Labrys and CP Makoto are the least playable characters around I would say ASW game balance is in a really good spot.  Pre-patch Kokonoe may have slipped through due to lack of testing but it was a short-lived console-only issue and was dealt with.

[D.R.F.]

it's okay Effenhoog, the most balanced game is obviously SF3 - Chun LI Dynasty edition #kappa ( Alex to the grave though!!!!!! )

[Angry Guy of DE]

I think its just reflecting on Vanilla CP, 1.1 with its changes (for better or worse for some characters), and what we've seen with CP2.0.

Normally you can look at a change and go, "Yeah I see where they were going for it" and either they missed the point or outright ruined the purpose of something a character has.

Vanilla Kokonoe was nonsense, where basic scrubs were getting out of pools and making top 8 all the while dropping combos and making mistakes because she simply ignored most of the rules of the game with gatling options and brain-dead unblockable set-up with the blackhole.

Some changes in 1.1 were welcomed since characters like Hakumen with OD could kill off a throw or Valk could do (seemingly) endless pressure that made every matchup just turn into Make Them Block > Go Wolf > Do 4-5 Mixups and Valk can get a combo and set-up the situation again.

2.0 However...the notes for changes make people look at their character and go "Well this combo doesn't work" or "My oki set-ups have been ruined entirely" with no real justification or compensation for it.

I play Kagura, who I feel is designed for orb oki setups, and 2.0 changes have ruined his set-ups in the corner that allow him to use oki that is forced to be respected.  His oki is meant to be strong because his neutral game is so weak,  this makes some matchups hard without making strong reads and capitalizing on them.  Now in 2.0 the advantage of hard-knockdowns is gone and the change to B orb makes it lose its utility for a gimmicky projectile that gains durability as it travels further.

So yeah, a character who is viewed as mid-low tier will have his only strong trait weakened severely that made him a threat.  If only there was actual Legit Japanese Kaguras that could give input.

[SoWL]

Combos stop working and people have to look for different ones after pretty much every single expansion out there (except for maybe CP 1.1, because the bulk of its changes concerned only the DLC chars). Just because old combos no longer work in 2.0 doesn't mean that people won't find any new ones, maybe even surpassing the old ones in some aspects (ask Hazama about how he seems to be screwed up hard after every loketest and still coming out on top).

 

Now, making important tools weaker is a different matter, even if those tools were not intended to be the character's strong point. In GG, Anji wasn't really supposed to be all about butterfly pressure, he was designed around the guard points. Yet ASW didn't cut it altogether in AC, they just made the overhead butterfly cost meter. They realized that the way people played him was different from what they expected, so they just gave a slight nudge towards playing him with a different playstyle in mind instead of taking away the toys everyone got used to. When Kagura was first revealed, no one expected him to be about the orb oki: he was the first proper charge character of the game with various stance mix-ups and ridiculous range. Nerfing the orb might make the players pay more attention to his intended playstyle, but if other characters can do the same thing he does, but better (Hakumen, anyone?), then why bother?

[Airk]

I agree up until the last paragraph. I think adding new characters can be a problem if not addressed. When adding 7 new characters to the cast, a dev should make sure they're capable of something the others aren't, that it factors in heavily enough to where it can be called their uniqueness, and that that uniqueness is what gives them their edge. Personally I think the most unique character of the added 7 in CP is Amane. Bullet, Izayoi, Koko, and Kags remind me of bootleg versions of Tsubaki, Arakune, Rachel, and Noel respectively. Celeca looks like she could be the epitome of the problem, her gimmick is she hits stuff... and they take damage.

 

On the point of adding new characters, new characters are exiting,  and if a game was made featuring only the cast from the last game, people'd want a refund.

 

You've confused me here. You sound like you disagree with my last paragraph, and then go on to agree with me? 

 

Maybe I wasn't clear: I don't really think we gain anything from adding new characters at this point.  And no, the "Ooooh, look, another character!" hype doesn't qualify from my perspective, because it doesn't add anything to the long term health of the game.

 

I think people's idea of the "value" in a fighting game is seriously messed up.

 

Also, re Vermiloni's: "Balance is important but it doesn't make having fun while playing any less important." - Uhm...Hi?  Balance is important BECAUSE IT MAKES IT EASIER TO HAVE FUN.  Acting from the assumption that everyone wants to feel like if they had just played better, they would have won, instead of "Yeah, I got knocked down once into a lightning trap that kept me from seeing any further mixups so I was basically guessed to death".  Balance yo. It makes games better.

[Daramue]

i wish i could get only as nerfed as all your guys's mains.

 

 

Only half my character is left.

 

I'm still getting over it. It's just awful.

[Anne]

What the fuck are you guys even talking about.

[BloodWolF]

CP Nu was split into two characters (Nu/Lambda obviously). As such, Nu players will have to relearn the character (whichever/both) and seeing everyone worry about mere nerfs with that in mind only makes it harder to stomach for some.