[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Elochai]

Well besides Damosu, I think Hiyuki is a very good player as well. There's an Elizabeth player who plays at A-Cho who's good as well, but I don't know his name. The same goes for that sub 20 PSR Liz that plays at Osaka Umeda. 

[Elochai]

Hama confirmed for being practical in real matches .

[Cré-Klisan]

I wish someone could put all those niconico videos on YT   is anyone planning on getting the Japanese version? I already pre-ordered my U.S copy and I will buy the japanese digital version on release, I don't mind the double-dipping, but creating a JP PSN and figuring out how to add 7,000 yen worth of PSN cards was a hassle XD, so I'll be able to play around with some characters, mainly Liz, who else might get the japanese version?

 

EDIT: good jesus! I just saw the Hama combo! wow, looks like it actually is finally practical, Damosu is awesome! this could make any shadow fight a sinch, Yayyy!

Edited August 18, 2014 by Cré-Klisan

[Elochai]

I already pre-order the Japanese limited edition, so yeah. I'll be getting it. I plan to get the 360 NA version too, though.

 

I think Damosu went for Hama combos since S.Mitsuru can kill Liz off of 1 hit (w/ shadow rampage). Seemed like the best option I guess lol.

 

Edit: I'm willing to bet that Elizabeth vs a bunch of shadow characters will play out this way. The shadows that can pop 8k+ off of rampage pretty much turn the match into "who can land the first hit?".

Edited August 18, 2014 by Elochai

[Cré-Klisan]

For some reason after watching that last video I realized that I might've went overboard before, but I'm definetly more optimistic about Liz in Ultimax now.

 

At first I thought Damosu used Mind Charge just to get Meter, however it looks he also used it to get the awakening version attacks, I can just imagine fighting a normal opponent at match point while Liz is in Awakening and the opponent has no burst and doing a complete 180.

 

I wonder if we can do this with Mamudoon too, and I LOVE how he caught that first round with Debilitate, so cool! it's like he said "I'm going to use my charge move against a charge character"

[Luminos564]

I wonder if we can do this with Mamudoon too

 

Mamudoon sadly has far too much recovery for it to be used in a combo, even though its activation time is shorter than Mahamaon. Its height is also a problem, although not a huge one. I have not found a single Mamudoon combo to date however so that should tell you all you need to know about it.

 

I will admit I did find that Damosu vs. S.Mitsuru match hilarious.

 

Match 1: "Ohoho, Imma Mahamaon you for overkill damage".

 

Match 2: "Screw you *****, I'll Rampage over your corpse".

 

Match 3: "Oh too bad you didn't like my instant kill of deadly death. What about if I do it again?".

 

Match 4: "No! Drop dead after my one and only hit".

 

Match 5: "Joke's on you. I didn't need Mahamaon after all".

 

It's like watching a game of Instant Death Pong where if you miss a single defense, you're effectively putting a bullet to the head each time you mess up (figuratively speaking of course).

[GBAer64]

IDK though... I mean, the fact that a burst is required for that Mahamaon combo feels like it's still impractical but that's just me, I mean it still looks performable compared to the P4U version at least. Just means that I'll need to learn that combo (or at least something akin) if I want to stand against a good Shadow Mitsuru, Chie, or Yu. : /

 

Though I can certainly agree that the pressure and neutral game look more difficult for the opponent to guess, especially with that chargeable 2C. Though of course with some moves drawn back too.

 

Seems like 5D/JD has more use for combos rather than pressure now (though we might still be able to use it as a reset maybe). With Mabufudyne being a part of that exchange too. Our 5A(A) seems less risky on block thankfully.

 

Honestly, it feels like I have to relearn Lizzie now, which might be a pain for me (since I just recently decided to relearn P4U Liz). But that won't stop me from dropping her.

 

 

Also Margaret's trailer just came out! (Yay-ish) and it seems she also is persona dependent (dat 8 cards doe) with immense power but... what are the differences between Margaret and Lizzie?

 

All I can think of now are that Elizabeth utilizes abuse of status ailments and her awakening mode while Margaret is... just a lot of damage in general? That's all I can think of for differences. What do you guys think?

[Luminos564]

Also Margaret's trailer just came out! (Yay-ish) and it seems she also is persona dependent (dat 8 cards doe) with immense power but... what are the differences between Margaret and Lizzie?

 

All I can think of now are that Elizabeth utilizes abuse of status ailments and her awakening mode while Margaret is... just a lot of damage in general? That's all I can think of for differences. What do you guys think?

 

Margaret has, what appears to be, a teleporting (cross-up) AoA. That alone already makes her leagues above Lizzie. But she also has much more stable damage without the use of gimmicks, a Furious Action that can be teched like Lizzie's but looks like it leads to additional damage and her 3 persona seem to offer up plenty of variety. Her IK is also NOT a counter that can miss 80% of the time and does not have a lousy requirement so there is that too.

*Well, basing strictly on what is "seen" not what it actually "is".

 

Keep in mind however, that this is still strictly a trailer, something by definition that is meant to impress and excite. She may turn out to be less than stellar (or Kokonuts OP) than what her trailer indicates. Time will tell I suppose although it is truly a shame because Margaret is pretty much what I wanted Lizzie to be like. Especially since Lizze has the much cooler Thanatos and I always preferred her to Margaret.

[GBAer64]

Indeed, you know ASW really does need to see how much of a struggle it is for us to just stand a chance against even decent opponents. I know status ailments is Lizzie's specialty, along with maybe awakening since she has no shadow mode. But even with so many status ailment inflictions she doesn't have many ways to make her specialty spark up. Which is the problem as I see it. 

 

Now that I think about it... if Lizzie had set-ups and resets like other characters do you think she would end up... more... OP rather than perfectly fine?

 

IDK when you think about it... She dealt bunches of damage back then along with a possible paralyze and/or fear status (with a corner combo probably). Getting stuck with those two ailments spelled doom for anyone and everyone, especially since most would probably have at least half their hp down the drain already.

 

Problem was being able to get the opponent and grab the chance to perform it, along with how any risk can lead to a KO for Lizzie. So if they did anything with Lizzie as of now she would either be too powerful (like she is known for but is bad otherwise since gameplay balance), or too weak (which is what we ended up with now and before). So when I think about it now... it's already tough just deciding what to do with the lovely velvet waifu. Though that's just me rambling on since I think this has been poked on for quite awhile until they "fixed" or at least made her viable again with the patch.

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Though moving along now (I'd hide the above but I don't know how to turn it into something as a "spoiler" so moving forward.

 

Well you got a point. Her clumsy, socially curious personality was something that was cute and unlike anything else at the same time. Which to the more hilarious social links of Persona 3 (and even more as we see her today XD). Margaret on the other hand is what she is, powerful, and almost all knowing. Like Igor but without the nose and "PERSONAPERSONAPERSONAPERSONA!!!" or "SOCIALLINKSOCIALLINKSOCIALLINKSOCIALLINK!!!" which doesn't make her as eventful or great as a character. Since all she is is just a great ally for Yu and pals for me.

 

But even though it's just a trailer, it's safe to say that Margaret is basically Elizabeth 2.0 UltimaxSuplex. Since it seems like she borrows a bit from the new characters. Specifically Personaless Sho with that teleporting business she made for a free AoA.

 

Edit: After looking at the trailer more, it seems that Margaret focuses more on physical attacks rather than our Lizzie's magic and zoning. This might mean that we can still bring some power with our fullscreen abilities (but there's still the teleport that's the big question/problem). And that her grab at least doesn't seem easily combo...-able. After all, Chie can do it with a sweep or low hit but Margaret's throw seems like it would require timing, an OMC, and only a few moves that would be able to connect if she tried to follow up her Suplex throw.

[TD]

Liz seems even more centered on ailments, pressure, and a good neutral. Especially since more of her combos take longer especially in awakening. More time, more poison damage. She still needs a good hit: she will have to do "endless" pressure to annoy the foe into using a defensive option, predicting it and beating face, or score a good hit in neutral. It's going to be slightly better but still very hard in the coming months. Shoutout a to character love though.

[GBAer64]

So she's going to be like a... D.amageP.erS.econd-esque character? In a fighting game that is generally created with intense, fast-pacing action? I admit I'm exaggerating since that isn't the only thing she can do well, but having the ability to somewhat easily inflict poison isn't the best positive for our good 'ol waifu (thank you for that compliment on my love for her btw unless that was a sarcastic statement which I can't detect easily, text or speech ^w^). Especially since some character's can inflict with more ease. i.e. Yosuke's grab.

 

Then again she still can inflict fear or negative penalty, but those are only useful if she can get the opponent again, which already is her lacking point, being able to confirm a hit and make a combo out of it. Even harder is when other characters can do this so easily and/or find ways out of HER options easily.

 

 

It's like a baby knowing how to ride a tricycle but still struggling to learn to walk.

 

But oh well, I might just be pessimistic right now (in fact that's kinda been my mood this night with... a lot of things so I'm going to sleep to hopefully bring something other than new worries into this nice little discussion thread)

[Luminos564]

Though moving along now (I'd hide the above but I don't know how to turn it into something as a "spoiler" so moving forward.

 

Just as a head up then but to add "spoiler" just type [.spoiler]text[/.spoiler] and just remove periods from where I put them.

 

Like so:

Lizzie is love. Lizzie is life...even with a Death Arcana.

 

Honestly, I never bought into the idea that "Lizzie rides on a delicate balance that would make her OP with better stuff". There is always a means to balance a character for the better without making them into an overpowered, broken mess. Hell, ASW already did that with the very 1st loketest for P4U2, where she had good stuff and was only "too good" because in the loketest, she was the only one to retain her previous gameplan. Something tells me that if they had brought those properties into P4AU as it is now, the ability to do ice resets with Lizzie would be seen as hilariously quaint.

 

*Sigh* I really should cease getting my hopes up. ASW will never make Lizzie not suck in regards to every other character. This is probably the result of character love more than anything, but it pains me to see her have to struggle so. I felt the same as when I saw Makoto butchered in EX and Izayoi not measuring up despite being something new (though I hear she is getting better).

[Balguna]

Also note that Margaret does not have Invigorate as of the trailer. This means that despite both being Velvet Room assistants, Liz is likely to benefit much more from playing defensively since she can constantly generate meter.

 

The temptation is going to be to compare Margaret to Liz, but I'd say try to judge her separately as a character.

 

Of all the new arrivals I'd liken Liz to Junpei more than anything - they need to use all their options, like Mind Charge combos or OMB Homerun combos, to get to the point to do what other characters can, but once they're in control and the conditions are right, they can do a lot.

[GBAer64]

Well I'm back from a good nights sleep and happy to see you guys again! : D

 

There is always a means to balance a character for the better without making them into an overpowered, broken mess.

Indeed, and I'd have to say that even if it is possible, doesn't mean the difficulty is the same when it comes to balancing (even though they got it right in the first loketest...). And ty for being able to show me Luminos! ^o^

 

 

 

*Sigh* I really should cease getting my hopes up. ASW will never make Lizzie not suck in regards to every other character. This is probably the result of character love more than anything, but it pains me to see her have to struggle so. I felt the same as when I saw Makoto butchered in EX and Izayoi not measuring up despite being something new (though I hear she is getting better).

Well hey it's not like we shouldn't hope or help her on her struggle. Besides, we play her for fun, not the wins. D : And even if it's a bit harder with Lizzie on tournaments (if you participate in them that is...) then that just means people haven't seen her potential yet. I mean Morgan Fey didn't exactly get nominated for being a viable character until someone made her bullet-hell mirror soul fist frenzy (though we're in a different kind of fighting game so it's not the closest example to take into account but you see what I mean). 

 

 

Also note that Margaret does not have Invigorate as of the trailer. This means that despite both being Velvet Room assistants, Liz is likely to benefit much more from playing defensively since she can constantly generate meter.

 

The temptation is going to be to compare Margaret to Liz, but I'd say try to judge her separately as a character.

 

Of all the new arrivals I'd liken Liz to Junpei more than anything - they need to use all their options, like Mind Charge combos or OMB Homerun combos, to get to the point to do what other characters can, but once they're in control and the conditions are right, they can do a lot.

Oh yeah, hadn't caught notice of that until you came in Balguna. Ty for that, this might end up being how we can get the benefit too since we most likely have more options of attacking or applying pressure from afar than Margaret.

 

Oh yeah... I'd heard that Junpei is for the most part, a bit sub-par since he needs home-runs to start gaining power. And become a beast when he hit's enough to get to War Cry (I think that's the name). I guess the both of them do indeed feel similar in game plan. Can't say they're the same in attributes though but nonetheless their strategies are still somewhat similar (since it's also the only one that we can actually delve into too). Although that is to say that any character can perform really well if they have the power to control the flow of the fight. So I guess that just means we have to do our best to not allow that to happen for our opponents when the console version comes out for us.

[Luminos564]

Indeed, and I'd have to say that even if it is possible, doesn't mean the difficulty is the same when it comes to balancing (even though they got it right in the first loketest...). And ty for being able to show me Luminos! ^o^

 

You're welcome [^_^].

 

Honestly it still baffles me how they could get something right on the 1st loketest where everyone is technically supposed to suck and then proceed to drop the ball so hard later. I mean, did they forget about it completely? Alright, I can understand them making her worse in P4U2, but they had time to see just how poorly implemented she was and judging from the patch, the are aware. Yet instead of going "Oh hey, maybe that loketest #1 data wasn't so OP after all" they instead go "Well she sucks like everyone says. Here; slap on some rubbing alcohol and a bandage on her and call it a day".

 

Well hey it's not like we shouldn't hope or help her on her struggle. Besides, we play her for fun, not the wins. D : And even if it's a bit harder with Lizzie on tournaments (if you participate in them that is...) then that just means people haven't seen her potential yet. I mean Morgan Fey didn't exactly get nominated for being a viable character until someone made her bullet-hell mirror soul fist frenzy (though we're in a different kind of fighting game so it's not the closest example to take into account but you see what I mean). 

 

That's a fine example but you're forgetting that Morrigan was never a bad character on her own and whatever weakness she may carry, her 2 teammates can cover for it. Lizzie is on her lonesome in a den filled with beastly hydra and titans who can squash her flat with little trouble. I will concede though that I never much cared for wins with her. Win or lose it was always fun to play her in P4A. I don't give much of a hoot to go to tournaments (I am a craptastic player after all) either. However, as with any character love, I WANT to see Lizzie rise and be able to demolish the opposition. I want to see players actually fear fighting her at a competitive scene.

 

But alas, this will not happen as it stands. And maybe I am exaggerating and overlooking things again, but the point is, I DON'T get the same feeling from the current Lizzie as the one I had in P4A. P4AU Lizzie does not look to me like an SMT: Persona super boss given fighting game form. P4A may not have been strong tier-wise but at least she had that air about her. That "You do know I am holding back and could break you in half with a flick, right?". But I just don't see it here. I honestly do not. And that's why it pains me to see her in such a state. I feel she deserves better than what she got, biased and singular though my opinion may prove to be.

[TastyPancakez]

So Arc Revo happened.

Okusan was Liz it looks like which I thought was weird since I'm pretty sure he dropped her. Unless I'm mistaking him for someone else...

Didn't spot Damosu either so I guess he didn't make it?

Anyways no great Liz presence in this Arc Revo tournament

[OmnixTSC]

Margaret has, what appears to be, a teleporting (cross-up) AoA. That alone already makes her leagues above Lizzie.

 

I just want to point out that I'm still laughing at this statement. I'm sorry...I can't do this. *leaves Dustloop forever*

[GBAer64]

I just want to point out that I'm still laughing at this statement. I'm sorry...I can't do this. *leaves Dustloop forever*

Eh!? Wait what!? Please! At least tell me why since I don't get what you mean! ; A; 

 

Honestly it still baffles me how they could get something right on the 1st loketest where everyone is technically supposed to suck and then proceed to drop the ball so hard later. I mean, did they forget about it completely? Alright, I can understand them making her worse in P4U2, but they had time to see just how poorly implemented she was and judging from the patch, the are aware. Yet instead of going "Oh hey, maybe that loketest #1 data wasn't so OP after all" they instead go "Well she sucks like everyone says. Here; slap on some rubbing alcohol and a bandage on her and call it a day".

I think I can see why they would go with the latter choice of approach with us. After all, it doesn't seem like ASW releases a lot of patches for "balancing" like a MOBA (implying League but I'll stop right here) goes since fighting games require more change than just plans. It requires a change in execution of combos and a change in how to fighting general with the smallest of differences. Especially for a change that in comparison with the two versions of Liz (loketest and now), would change a lot if I were to guess. Especially with how it's been a few months and there have already been tournaments and other such competitive play in action on the JP version already. To change it now would be problematic for some pros. Not all, just some from what I would guess.

 

The other thing that is simple bigotry with this though, is that they had as much time to realize this also. And I'm going to guess that the JP players at least had a bit of a problem like we are having too.

[Zephyrion22]

 

Eh!? Wait what!? Please! At least tell me why since I don't get what you mean! ; A; 

 

I think I can see why they would go with the latter choice of approach with us. After all, it doesn't seem like ASW releases a lot of patches for "balancing" like a MOBA (implying League but I'll stop right here) goes since fighting games require more change than just plans. It requires a change in execution of combos and a change in how to fighting general with the smallest of differences. Especially for a change that in comparison with the two versions of Liz (loketest and now), would change a lot if I were to guess. Especially with how it's been a few months and there have already been tournaments and other such competitive play in action on the JP version already. To change it now would be problematic for some pros. Not all, just some from what I would guess.

 

The other thing that is simple bigotry with this though, is that they had as much time to realize this also. And I'm going to guess that the JP players at least had a bit of a problem like we are having too.

 

 

 

I think he means that a teleporting AoA, though it is probably better than Liz's, doesn't mean it's good either. It looks slower/easier to see than Sho's AoA, and god knows this one is already situational enough, despite is (kinda) subtle animation and decent startup

 

 

I think we've already covered the balancing issues. though it is sad that Liz isn't as strong as other characters, I think we'd better use our time in the forum to share ideas,things we want to test,things we look forward to... She has enough cool and flashy stuff right now to be a lethal elevator attendant (even if siscon guy says "screw that") so why not focus on that

 

One thing I want to really check is the timing on Awakening SB Magaru into D, is it as tight as it looks ? I hope not, but hey, if it is, then practice time !

[GBAer64]

I was starting to think that too, I mean the hit itself comes out fast. But the start up for the teleportation looks slow enough to be spotted. It's just that we'll have to watch ourselves if we use Maragidyne or anything with a long recovery, let alone something with a slightly longer startup. Though that's only if the teleportation goes right behind you like seen in the trailer. It doesn't seem like it's a full screen attack, nor can I easily assume that there's a different variation with the move. So where she will appear is a question that can't be answered for now. The answer would help or hurt us by giving or taking away Elizabeth's options and ability to take a risk (which we really shouldn't for the most part since she's the lowest hp but).

 

And yeah! You have a point, we've already had our melancholy moments quite a few months ago so it's not like we should drag it on again. What we need to do now is just gather as much knowledge as we can! After all, knowledge is half the battle (with execution and a few other things being the other half I guess)! So using that energy to muster it up now will help us. Sometimes not only for us when we're just Elizabeth, but as a player in general.

[Luminos564]

I just want to point out that I'm still laughing at this statement. I'm sorry...I can't do this. *leaves Dustloop forever*

 

I'm glad you had a good laugh but I do hope you realize, I never stated that this was more than first impressions on my part. I even acknowledged that it might not turn out as good as the trailer makes it out to be.

 

Unless of course you deliberately posted this to mess with me in which case: shame on you  .

 

I think I can see why they would go with the latter choice of approach with us. After all, it doesn't seem like ASW releases a lot of patches for "balancing" like a MOBA (implying League but I'll stop right here) goes since fighting games require more change than just plans. It requires a change in execution of combos and a change in how to fighting general with the smallest of differences. Especially for a change that in comparison with the two versions of Liz (loketest and now), would change a lot if I were to guess. Especially with how it's been a few months and there have already been tournaments and other such competitive play in action on the JP version already. To change it now would be problematic for some pros. Not all, just some from what I would guess.

 

The other thing that is simple bigotry with this though, is that they had as much time to realize this also. And I'm going to guess that the JP players at least had a bit of a problem like we are having too.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of what such a spontaneous, extensive change would bring. I mean look how long it took for some to figure out what they had to do in order to win with her. Vanilla P4U2 was out in, what, November? Yeah it's been a pretty rough ride. To suddenly introduce an overhaul would likely not go over so well with the people who just got used to her.

 

I think we've already covered the balancing issues. though it is sad that Liz isn't as strong as other characters, I think we'd better use our time in the forum to share ideas,things we want to test,things we look forward to... She has enough cool and flashy stuff right now to be a lethal elevator attendant (even if siscon guy says "screw that") so why not focus on that

 

Yeah, I share the sentiment. Talking about her situation with the game's balance is just going to make me depressed.

 

I am itching to see just how far the damage is from Randomizer+OHSM+Fear+SB Ghastly Wail. Simple thing I know, but the recent batch of videos had people being more liberal with its use. So I want to see for myself just how much it could do in that scenario then train myself to land Randomizer since I figure that will be the toughest part (y'know, unconventional charge move input and all).

[GBAer64]

Oh don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of what such a spontaneous, extensive change would bring. I mean look how long it took for some to figure out what they had to do in order to win with her. Vanilla P4U2 was out in, what, November? Yeah it's been a pretty rough ride. To suddenly introduce an overhaul would likely not go over so well with the people who just got used to her.

 

 

Yeah, I share the sentiment. Talking about her situation with the game's balance is just going to make me depressed.

 

I am itching to see just how far the damage is from Randomizer+OHSM+Fear+SB Ghastly Wail. Simple thing I know, but the recent batch of videos had people being more liberal with its use. So I want to see for myself just how much it could do in that scenario then train myself to land Randomizer since I figure that will be the toughest part (y'know, unconventional charge move input and all).

True true, and it seems that figuring out how to use her has held out well for those who have implemented it. Sure they still have trouble agains the truly bad match ups we have. But they stand a good chance at least from the videos I've been watching (most from here though).

 

I admit, I am and was a part of this too and felt the same way. Which is why I kinda want to deviate or at least bring the focus to something else since moping around won't get anywhere. Kinda like if someone close to you died. : P

 

Oh... I never thought of that until now... 0_0 I've been able to land a Fear + Counter + OHSM Ghastly Wail quite a few times (thanks to Mind Charge when the opponent techs). That damage alone has really pulled a reversal that has saved me and more or less made the opponent a little mad at me... or respect me occasionally. 6300 damage... Now with a Negative Penalty at hand I think we might have more chances for reversals.

 

I mean... setting all of them at once (probably) would be an instant kill. But being able to bring in a negative penalty and a Ghastly Wail would probably give damage that would make the opponent fear us or at least know they should watch themselves before it's too late.

 

Speaking of which does Ghastly Wail actually have a difference now!? I know that back in the original the D version just came out a handful of frames slower than the C version. With both providing the same amount of damage. So... do we have any info on the SB version now? I know we had a bit of discussion about what it's actual attributes were... So I'm not sure if we've been able to delve deeper with more wisdom on the matter.

[Luminos564]

Ghastly Wail [C] is effectively the same as it was before. Ghastly Wail [D] is also roughly the same as it was in P4A (read virtually impossible to land, be it in a combo or raw).

 

Both version will deal the same exact damage so there's never really a reason to opt for the [D] version when [C] is readily available to you in Awakening. The only thing [D] version has over the [C] and [sB] versions is that its minimum damage is 2000, arguably a very high number for a move. But since there have been no combos that involve using it (or at least, I never heard of anyone ending a combo with it at the end), it is a moot point.

 

For the record, P4A Ghastly wail with Negative Penalty, OHSM and Fear was 9450 on an un-Awakened target. That's death for a good portion of the cast sans the beefy ones like Akihiko and Kanji (or in P4AU's case, the Shadow Types) along with 9500 healthers like Yu. But I am curious about the [sB] version since it can be charged up further. Damage with OHSM+Fear and the full charge makes Ghastly Wail [sB] deal 7800. So I want to know the number if we throw in Negative Penalty via Randomizer. I already figure it has to be a one-stroke death for Normal Types, but I am curious just what the damage would be to a Shadow Type what with their 2000 extra bits of health.

[GBAer64]

It's even chargeable now!? And they exactly have that much added health?

 

And oh yeah... we can't exactly use corner Mabufudyne B<OMC<Ghastly Wail since the freeze property is kinda... different now.

[Luminos564]

It's even chargeable now!? And they exactly have that much added health?

 

And oh yeah... we can't exactly use corner Mabufudyne B<OMC<Ghastly Wail since the freeze property is kinda... different now.

 

It was always chargeable. Been that way since it was implemented (I believe you have to rotate the stick for it but I am not certain). It is why its minimum damage is a measly 1000 since you can always charge it for further. And yeah, Shadow Types have exactly 2000 health more than the base of their Normal Types. Fitting considering they cannot Awaken so it makes them the perfect practice/test dummy for it.

 

Yeah we sadly can't. The go to thing is to use 25SP for SB Mabufudyne>2C(whiff)>AoA>OMC>Ghastly Wail [C] or [sB]. You're looking at a minimum of 125SP for the maneuver.