Lynette Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Strange idea, since Liz's attacks are based on the P4A cast (Mahamaon from Naoto, Maziodyne from Yu) what if she got new attacks from the new characters? Thanatos could get a new Physical attack based on Junpei's deathbound, a New Garu spell from Yukari and so on.
Strife Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Strange idea, since Liz's attacks are based on the P4A cast (Mahamaon from Naoto, Maziodyne from Yu) what if she got new attacks from the new characters? Thanatos could get a new Physical attack based on Junpei's deathbound, a New Garu spell from Yukari and so on. Nah, they're not based on the P4U cast. They're based on her own skills as a boss in P3, Megidolaon being the IK.
Lynette Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Oh I Know, I meant in P4A gameplay-wise not story-wise from P3, Like her P4A Maziodyne is a full screen beam like Narukami's Ziodyne
Strife Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 Oh I Know, I meant in P4A gameplay-wise not story-wise from P3, Like her P4A Maziodyne is a full screen beam like Narukami's Ziodyne Oh, I know what you mean. They are similar indeed.
Luminos564 Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 As days pass on by, I can't help recall the claim that Lizzie ought to be scrapped and then rebuilt from the ground up. I know I was the one most excited for her changes when they were first reported, but it is as most others predicted: they're simply not enough right now. They helped, don't get me wrong. Just, not enough for it to actually matter. Which means we never actually moved from vanilla P4U2.
Strife Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 I know I was the one most excited for her changes when they were first reported, but it is as most others predicted: they're simply not enough right now. They helped, don't get me wrong. Just, not enough for it to actually matter. Which means we never actually moved from vanilla P4U2. And how are you getting to that conclusion?
Luminos564 Posted May 31, 2014 Posted May 31, 2014 And how are you getting to that conclusion? This is all mostly observation and opinion on my part. If you disagree I would welcome your take on the matter. Anyway... I drew my conclusion from watching the match videos available and comparing them to the previous version. And in all honestly, not much has changed. Lizzie continues to struggle against pretty much everyone unless you're Damosu or in a Lizzie mirror. And when I say "not much has changed" I mean that outside of the players just now attempting to use Randomizer more frequently, the results are roughly the same. Yu, Aigis, Mitsuru, Teddie, Yosuke, MINAZUKI, Chie, Shadow Labrys can all wreck her day. Naoto, Yukiko and Yukari outzone and shut her down easily. I think even Kanji has little to fear from her. Akihiko generally comes out on top due to how easier it is for him to bust out damage, while Labrys and Sho have little footage go off of against Lizzie.
DeathArcana Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Why get rid of an entire character? I would prefer they just give her the buffs she needs, and give an altered moveset to another Velvet attendant
Luminos564 Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Why get rid of an entire character? I would prefer they just give her the buffs she needs, and give an altered moveset to another Velvet attendant Wait what? No, that's not what I meant at all. I meant scrap Lizzie and only Lizzie as she is, then rebuild her like the Million Dollar Man into something much more fearsome with jetpacks, lazerbeams and kung fu grip. DeathArcana 1
GBAer64 Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Does Randomizer really have the ability to turn the tide on matches like *FINGERSNAP*? And what's with Sho anyways? I probably haven't watched as much gameplay as you guys but Sho's mixups seem... mm... Well they look easier than Akihiko in my opinion since they're kinda like Mitsuru. She usually has a "fixed path" of mixups when she has the pressure on you imo. And as a question from you guys: When does it seem a lot of people use Randomizer? And when would it be the best time?
Strife Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) I drew my conclusion from watching the match videos available and comparing them to the previous version. And in all honestly, not much has changed. Lizzie continues to struggle against pretty much everyone unless you're Damosu. I don't get this. If someone can play the character well, so can you. If Damosu can go even with top players using better characters than him, so can you. If Damosu uses her tools well and know how to get the best of each situation, so can you. This should be your goal actually. I mean that outside of the players just now attempting to use Randomizer more frequently, the results are roughly the same. Yu, Aigis, Mitsuru, Teddie, Yosuke, MINAZUKI, Chie, Shadow Labrys can all wreck her day. Naoto, Yukiko and Yukari outzone and shut her down easily. I think even Kanji has little to fear from her. Akihiko generally comes out on top due to how easier it is for him to bust out damage, while Labrys and Sho have little footage go off of against Lizzie. Honestly, I won't completely disagree with you here, but you gotta admit you're just assuming stuff. First off, we don't have ANY Liz 1.1 footage against Narukami, Aigis, Mitsuru, Teddie, Yosuke, Chie, Kanji or even Labrys. Sure, you might be right and she still loses to a good portion of those characters but she IS better than before, she migh have better chances now. Anyway, there's still little footage from 1.1 Liz. Too early to draw any conclusions right now. Edited June 1, 2014 by Strife
Zephyrion22 Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 Yeah also, in the end, in terms of gameplan, strengths and weaknesses and so on, Liz hasn't changed much from P4A to P4AU, she traded her damage and meter free combo for a buffed neutral game, slightly improved pressure and a defensive option. I don't think people who have been able to pull through P4A won't be able to pull through in the next game Anyway, there's still little footage from 1.1 Liz. Too early to draw any conclusions right now. I completely agree, also lack of footage doesn't necessarily mean your character is bad, I mean look at Yukari (if we omit Tahichi who is on every stream and half of the tourneys) , Yukiko (there is even less footage of her than Liz !!) : Although they are good characters, they never appear only because there are few players that appear on said streams and tourneys. In the end, it's the usual "wait and see". Whatever the outcome is, I'll stick to Liz, if Ken or Junpei don't steal my heart until then, that is xD Strife 1
Luminos564 Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 I don't get this. If someone can play the character well, so can you. If Damosu can go even with top players using better characters than him, so can you. If Damosu uses her tools well and know how to get the best of each situation, so can you. This should be your goal actually. I disagree with respects to myself. I know the extent of my ability as a player and trust me when I say that it'd take a miracle for me to be as good as some semi-average player. Let alone setting the bar to Damosu's level. Still, just because I am 99.9% likely to be stuck at scrub level, that doesn't mean anyone else is. Honestly, I won't completely disagree with you here, but you gotta admit you're just assuming stuff. First off, we don't have ANY Liz 1.1 footage against Narukami, Aigis, Mitsuru, Teddie, Yosuke, Chie, Kanji or even Labrys. Sure, you might be right and she still loses to a good portion of those characters but she IS better than before, she might have better chances now. Anyway, there's still little footage from 1.1 Liz. Too early to draw any conclusions right now. Oh come now Strife you can't have overlooked them in the video thread http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7965-p4au-elizabeth-video-thread/page-2. I'll admit that I went a little overboard naming characters like Yu, Chie, Labrys and Kanji in my previous statement, but there is definitely videos of the others. They're even dated for you to know that it's the 1.1 version. But I will concede that it might even now be too early to draw a definitive conclusion and that I went a bit overboard beforehand. I guess it is better to wait until the game hits consoles considering they're bringing in new characters that might just shake the balance of the game quite a bit. Strife 1
xlolxlolx Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 you know.....the fact that she hasn't changed her gameplan much from p4u means she's still going to get shit on by almost the entire cast, footage doesn't change the fact that she still can't deal with the characters that completely dominate her
Strife Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 you know.....the fact that she hasn't changed her gameplan much from p4u means she's still going to get shit on by almost the entire cast, footage doesn't change the fact that she still can't deal with the characters that completely dominate her. Kanji's gameplan didn't change much from P4U to P4U2 as well right? Guess he's still one of the worst characters then!
xlolxlolx Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 hm? he got a great deal of close range buffs that lets him stay in, stronger frame traps, and better mid-long range game with the new charge tackle,that also lets him get in, i guess that makes him the same eh so, where is that place she accels in with her "new" stuff and decreased damage
Strife Posted June 1, 2014 Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) hm? he got a great deal of close range buffs that lets him stay in, stronger frame traps, and better mid-long range game with the new charge tackle,that also lets him get in, i guess that makes him the same eh so, where is that place she accels in with her "new" stuff and decreased damage You were talking about gameplan, his gameplan is still mostly the same with more options to work with. Liz is basically in the same situation, her neutral options are a bit better than in P4U from what I've seen: 5C dash cancel to protect Thanatos, two new defensive options (Randomizer and Guard roll) faster Maragidyne and specially the new Maziodyne with 2 beams. Those will definitely help her in one way or another. Also don't get me wrong, I never said this character is good or even viable so far. My point is that we should wait for more footage and info before saying she's hopeless. Edited June 1, 2014 by Strife
Elochai Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Okay, I cleaned this up a bit and decided to separate combos by awakening/non-awakening mode. I still need to fill in damage/meter, but I would rather tackle that problem when the game is out on console so that I don't have to strain my eyes trying to make out damage numbers on low quality videos .https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvCrScNd_E2JF3kqdzZZZEaqq9o18QjvVV49vkiwnQk/edit?usp=sharing Zephyrion22, Luminos564 and Strife 3
Luminos564 Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Great job Elochai. If you'd like I can also look over the damage and SP uses. I can't promise the absolute 100% accuracy (and in the Mahamaon ones it shouldn't matter since they spell defeat for the opponent anyway), but I can certainly give you a rough idea if you wanna update it sooner rather than later. EDIT: I have gotten through Part 1 [ http://youtu.be/LxXK8zFcSQw ] of the combo vid and wrote down my findings. I'll get to Part 2 sometime later when my eyes are no longer bleeding XD. Combos in order of appearance: -3503 [50] -3763 [50] -2979 [25] -2634 [25] *Total number obscured by frozen opponent. Double check required. -2800 [00] **Awakening. -2949 [00] **Awakening. -Death [150] -Death [175] -Death [175] -Death [150] -Death [175] -Death [175] -5312 [50] -2373 [00] -3168 [25] -3373 [00] -4761 [25] -4641 [50] -2588 [25] -3792 [25] -3527 [25] -Approx. 2.6K [00] *Total number is obscured. Double check required. -3860 [25] -4058 [25] -3691 [25] -3235 [25] -3605 [25] -4091 [50] *Awakening. -Part 1: 2685 [00] Part 2: Approx. 3.7K [00] *Total number obscured. Double check required. -3715 [25] -3184 [25] -Part 1: 2698 [00] Part 2: 3762 [25] -9449 [125] *Awakening. Off of FC SB Ghastly Wail with 1HSM. -9455 [125] *Awakening. Off of FC SB Ghastly Wail with 1HSM. -3274 [00] Zephyrion22 1
OmnixTSC Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Okay, so...what characters do you guys actually think give Liz trouble in P4U and/or P4U2? Now I'm curious. Liz only had trouble against 4 characters in P4A last I checked: Teddie, Yosuke, Narukami, and of course Mitsuru. Sure, the Chie MU isn't in Liz's favor, but it's close enough to where we don't have to readily talk about it. Everything else is pretty even, maybe some 4.5-5.5s on one side or the other depending on who you ask. I'm going to start ranting here, b/c DL in general has been bothering me more and more lately (more along the lines of confusion than actual aggravation). So...have fun reading if you click the spoiler, Lizzies! I'll be honest. A lot of people complain about things when they don't know what they're talking about, regardless of which version of any character is being brought up. When I visit the Liz threads (or any character threads on DL for that matter), the conclusion I end up drawing before I close out the tab is that most people here are just...bad. It doesn't even matter what character I look at, especially with complaints about practically nothing left and right when most people just have to ask a simple question to clarify something or to get a better understanding of the things that leave them confused. This happening makes me laugh more often than not nowadays, but I'm still genuinely confused at times. On another note, please stop discouraging yourselves and then using said discouragement in an attempt to justify your reasoning for something (such as MU problems or character utility). This is in no way directed at everyone, but there are definitely a number of people that do this in all of the DL threads. It's pretty saddening, though I end up just going on with my day after openly sighing. PK Gaming 1
Elochai Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Great job Elochai. If you'd like I can also look over the damage and SP uses. I can't promise the absolute 100% accuracy (and in the Mahamaon ones it shouldn't matter since they spell defeat for the opponent anyway), but I can certainly give you a rough idea if you wanna update it sooner rather than later. EDIT: I have gotten through Part 1 [ http://youtu.be/LxXK8zFcSQw ] of the combo vid and wrote down my findings. I'll get to Part 2 sometime later when my eyes are no longer bleeding XD. Combos in order of appearance: -3503 [50] -3763 [50] -2979 [25] -2634 [25] *Total number obscured by frozen opponent. Double check required. -2800 [00] **Awakening. -2949 [00] **Awakening. -Death [150] -Death [175] -Death [175] -Death [150] -Death [175] -Death [175] -5312 [50] -2373 [00] -3168 [25] -3373 [00] -4761 [25] -4641 [50] -2588 [25] -3792 [25] -3527 [25] -Approx. 2.6K [00] *Total number is obscured. Double check required. -3860 [25] -4058 [25] -3691 [25] -3235 [25] -3605 [25] -4091 [50] *Awakening. -Part 1: 2685 [00] Part 2: Approx. 3.7K [00] *Total number obscured. Double check required. -3715 [25] -3184 [25] -Part 1: 2698 [00] Part 2: 3762 [25] -9449 [125] *Awakening. Off of FC SB Ghastly Wail with 1HSM. -9455 [125] *Awakening. Off of FC SB Ghastly Wail with 1HSM. -3274 [00] Many thanks. I'll look over my list and see if I need to make any corrections/add in the values I'm missing. Okay, so...what characters do you guys actually think give Liz trouble in P4U and/or P4U2? Now I'm curious. Liz only had trouble against 4 characters in P4A last I checked: Teddie, Yosuke, Narukami, and of course Mitsuru. Sure, the Chie MU isn't in Liz's favor, but it's close enough to where we don't have to readily talk about it. Everything else is pretty even, maybe some 4.5-5.5s on one side or the other depending on who you ask. I'm going to start ranting here, b/c DL in general has been bothering me more and more lately (more along the lines of confusion than actual aggravation). So...have fun reading if you click the spoiler, Lizzies! I'll be honest. A lot of people complain about things when they don't know what they're talking about, regardless of which version of any character is being brought up. When I visit the Liz threads (or any character threads on DL for that matter), the conclusion I end up drawing before I close out the tab is that most people here are just...bad. It doesn't even matter what character I look at, especially with complaints about practically nothing left and right when most people just have to ask a simple question to clarify something or to get a better understanding of the things that leave them confused. This happening makes me laugh more often than not nowadays, but I'm still genuinely confused at times. On another note, please stop discouraging yourselves and then using said discouragement in an attempt to justify your reasoning for something (such as MU problems or character utility). This is in no way directed at everyone, but there are definitely a number of people that do this in all of the DL threads. It's pretty saddening, though I end up just going on with my day after openly sighing. In regards to the part of this post about MUs that give Elizabeth trouble, I would mostly agree. With the exception of Shadow Labrys & those you listed, I can agree that the rest are 5.5/4.5 (under the supposition that 5.5/4.5 means that the match can go in either character's favor, given x/y circumstance). If we're to take seriously the opinions of the Elizabeth players polled for the P4U Arcadia tier list, this (5.5/4.5 MUs) would be reflected as well. I would not say that the players here are "bad" (and I think calling them so is verbose to some extent, but that's a different argument), but it's just that everyone is rather "average". Thusly, they behave in the way that they do. If you face a problem enough times, you can generally come to a logical solution regarding it. In other words, there's only so much complaining that someone can do before they finally resolve to fix a problem (if it's even possible to fix). At least I think that's how it works . There's a certain netplay thread you can skim through if you really want to see "complaints about practically nothing".
Luminos564 Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Many thanks. I'll look over my list and see if I need to make any corrections/add in the values I'm missing. You are most welcome. Part 2 of the combo vid [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywhvmEWqK4U&feature=youtu.be ] is now complete. This one was a lot easier on the eye and had far fewer obscured values. Hopefully I am at least somewhat on the mark since it's rare for me to find a character for whom I'm willing to suffer haemolacria XD. Combos in order of appearance: -3193 [00] -3466 [25] *Awakening. -2578 [25] -2774 [00] *Total number obscured. Double check required. -3122 [25] -2443 [00] *Awakening. -2143 [00] *Awakening. -2957 [25] *Awakening. -4055 [50] *Awakening. -Death [175] -5156 [150] *Awakening. -7571 [150] *Awakening. -4710 [00] -3907 [25] -2540 [00] -3801 [25] -3354 [25] -3604 [25] -4058 [25] -3543 [125] *Awakening. -4105 [75] *Awakening. -7011 [150] *Awakening. -4103 [25] -3541 [25] -Approx. 3.2K [00] *Total number obscured. Double check required. -2998 [100] *Awakening. -2338 [100] *Awakening. -2947 [100] *Awakening. -3501 [25] -5124 [75] -5083 [50] *Awakening. -2710 [25] -2283 [25] -3623 [75] *Awakening. -3669 [100] BONUS: Golden Arena Lizzie damage: 99999 [200] Zephyrion22 and Strife 2
OmnixTSC Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 In regards to the part of this post about MUs that give Elizabeth trouble, I would mostly agree. With the exception of Shadow Labrys & those you listed, I can agree that the rest are 5.5/4.5 (under the supposition that 5.5/4.5 means that the match can go in either character's favor, given x/y circumstance). If we're to take seriously the opinions of the Elizabeth players polled for the P4U Arcadia tier list, this (5.5/4.5 MUs) would be reflected as well. You don't feel the SLab MU is arguable either way? I always felt it was a pretty fair MU outside of when either character derped the other b/c of setplay and/or damage. I would not say that the players here are "bad" (and I think calling them so is verbose to some extent, but that's a different argument), but it's just that everyone is rather "average". Thusly, they behave in the way that they do. If you face a problem enough times, you can generally come to a logical solution regarding it. In other words, there's only so much complaining that someone can do before they finally resolve to fix a problem (if it's even possible to fix). At least I think that's how it works . This is why I pointed out that I'd be ranting instead of having an actual discussion on my thoughts of various things. It was more of me venting my sadness than me being entirely serious about everything (part of the reason I spoiler tagged it). I do understand why people reach the conclusions they do in any given situation, but that doesn't mean I'm not saddened by them on occasion or very understanding of them on others. I was having one of those 'God dang it, FGC' moments and just ended up posting it in the Liz threads b/c I was here I just defaulted to calling people 'bad' so I didn't have to spend time thinking about their actual faults or weaknesses. That is exceptionally silly on my part, but this is the first time I've openly called people bad, so...DL...you're bad. Very bad...The 'beyond any hopes of salvation' kinda bad. You should feel bad. All of you! Huh...this doesn't feel as comical as I thought it would.
Elochai Posted June 9, 2014 Posted June 9, 2014 I think Shadow Labrys can play a better neutral game than Elizabeth can. I think 8C/2C give Elizabeth a bit of a hard time since she kinda loses important tools. Namely 2C removes some of the effectiveness from jB whereas 8C discourages Liz from throwing out zoning tools (most notably maragi). Everything else about this MU is prmanageable. Shadow Labrys doesn't have much health, and you really only need to 5B her two or three times to kill her.
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