[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[OmnixTSC]

I think Shadow Labrys can play a better neutral game than Elizabeth can. I think 8C/2C give Elizabeth a bit of a hard time since she kinda loses important tools. Namely 2C removes some of the effectiveness from jB whereas 8C discourages Liz from throwing out zoning tools (most notably maragi). Everything else about this MU is prmanageable. 

 

Considering you can easily deal with SLab's 8C and to a lesser extent 2C by using Liz's 2B and still be safe all while punishing the persona call, I don't really see either option giving Liz a hard time. Sure, we can't use Maragi much in this MU without paying attention to what the SLab is doing, but that goes for pretty much all of our MUs.

 

Both characters lose general neutral options when the other is doing stuff, but they can trade persona hits consistently enough to where neutral doesn't seem to bother either character at the end of the day. 

 

Shadow Labrys doesn't have much health, and you really only need to 5B her two or three times to kill her.

 

The funny thing is that you don't even need that if you bait one DP from her. SLab just straight up dies at that point if she has no burst. D Garu punish is the best punish, especially on a character where the combo takes next to no effort (thank you 236D[2] loops)

[Elochai]

See: bolded

 

Considering you can easily deal with SLab's 8C and to a lesser extent 2C by using Liz's 2B and still be safe all while punishing the persona call, I don't really see either option giving Liz a hard time. Sure, we can't use Maragi much in this MU without paying attention to what the SLab is doing, but that goes for pretty much all of our MUs.

 

Fair point. I suppose the grievance more so lies in the fact that 8C can blow Liz up for committing to moves without paying attention to what's going on. Then again, this isn't mutually exclusive. I believe I might've injected some personal bias in my judgement here.

 

I never really realized to what extent 5D got changed, but now it kinda dawned on me. If this was vanilla P4U, this would've worked . 

 

The color 2 Elizabeth in the new A-Cho videos did something interesting; he tried to burst bait with Randomizer. I wonder if it's worth it to do this rather than block the burst, and then punish with 5B/Garu/etc (granted that the Liz player was facing the corner).

[OmnixTSC]

Fair point. I suppose the grievance more so lies in the fact that 8C can blow Liz up for committing to moves without paying attention to what's going on. Then again, this isn't mutually exclusive. I believe I might've injected some personal bias in my judgement here.

 

Eh, it happens. That's like me not being bothered by the Mitsuru MU (and actually enjoying it now) even though I admit that it's really bad. This is soley b/c of the people I play and talk to along with my own personal perception of things.

 

I never really realized to what extent 5D got changed, but now it kinda dawned on me. If this was vanilla P4U, this would've worked  . 

 

Still saddened by this change. Slightly more risk involved with using 5D in some situations now. I guess with having to be closer to people with it, there will be a few scenarios where they have less time to react to it? Meh.

 

The color 2 Elizabeth in the new A-Cho videos did something interesting; he tried to burst bait with Randomizer. I wonder if it's worth it to do this rather than block the burst, and then punish with 5B/Garu/etc (granted that the Liz player was facing the corner).

 

If we can find a way to do combos with Randomizer, then sure. Otherwise, no dice. The risk of messing up and walking into the burst is enough of a reason to not try this. It's just to style from what I can tell.

 

I thought it was kinda funny, albeit a bit sad, that the Liz was playing as if he hopped on a P4U cab. He wasn't even doing basic P4U2 Liz stuff...Well, he seemed to have a firm grasp of P4U Liz, so maybe he'll come around 

 

Edit: I was talking about the first Liz we see in the video with the above comment. Color #2 Liz is actually really solid and knows P4U2 routes (though he/she seems to press a lot of buttons lol).

[Zephyrion22]

Wow heads up to Luminos and Elochai for working through the combo vid to give us notations, damage and meter consumption ! It really is a nice initiative !

 

Okay, so...what characters do you guys actually think give Liz trouble in P4U and/or P4U2? Now I'm curious. Liz only had trouble against 4 characters in P4A last I checked: Teddie, Yosuke, Narukami, and of course Mitsuru. Sure, the Chie MU isn't in Liz's favor, but it's close enough to where we don't have to readily talk about it. Everything else is pretty even, maybe some 4.5-5.5s on one side or the other depending on who you ask.

 

I mostly agree with this. In P4U2, those four still seems to be really hard to deal with. Psho also looks really threatening to Liz, because of his explosive damage, decent screen control and harassment possibilities. Also, it is probably only my imagination, but the Naoto MU really seems considerably worse than before. While the neutral game hasn't changed that much, her improved corner game and the ability to silence + fear Liz looks like a handful to deal with. Then again, I don't think it is so bad to be in the worst MU list, but still bad enough to be mentioned xD

 

EDIT : new Damosu combos, and great ones at that ! be sure to check the video thread and discuss it here !

[SupaFella0]

So the negative penalty doesn't register until the opponent recovers? Everytime "comboing out of Randomizer/Debilitate" was brought up I thought we were talking about N. Penalty combos. Either way those poison combos look nice, how much does the poison do raw?

[Elochai]

If I remember correctly (and if I am wrong, I'm sure Omnix can correct me), poison added 1,200 damage throughout its entire duration. I too believed that negative penalty would be applied midcombo (similar to comboing off of Shuffle Time), but it's nice to know that combo routes off of Randomizer exist. I knew it had to be possible. I'm surprised that the combos are using 214A instead of 214AB or 5B though. 

 

What pleases me most is the fact that the midscreen/meterless Randomizer combo route does about 3k, and it inflicts fear + negative penalty. That's amazing. I didn't think that fear was fearsome (lol) in P4U, but I'm now convinced of the contrary in regards to P4U2. I'm really excited! The 2D combo routes are super nice; it seems like Elizabeth is back to doing explosive amounts of damage (7K off of 5A!!!). 

 

As an aside, I should be updating the combo doc today w/ Luminos' info + these new combos.
 

[Luminos564]

Any chance of getting this one on YouTube? I'm afraid my computer no longer allows me to connect to NicoNicoDouga and I am a little too frustrated to find out why it does that. And if need be Elochai I can look over the damage/meter values as well this time if the quality is a little too blurry again.

[Strife]

Any chance of getting this one on YouTube? I'm afraid my computer no longer allows me to connect to NicoNicoDouga and I am a little too frustrated to find out why it does that. And if need be Elochai I can look over the damage/meter values as well this time if the quality is a little too blurry again.

 

YouTube Link.

 

They seem really good, nice to see 2D being useful during combos. Randomizer meterless confirms are also nice, all them stats + Negative Penalty and 3k damage.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Strife

[Elochai]

Any chance of getting this one on YouTube? I'm afraid my computer no longer allows me to connect to NicoNicoDouga and I am a little too frustrated to find out why it does that. And if need be Elochai I can look over the damage/meter values as well this time if the quality is a little too blurry again.

 

I got all of these listed, please do not trouble yourself again lol. One thing I'm wondering though is if I should include the added damage from poison in the damage value section. I mean, the combo technically doesn't do that damage I guess? I dunno, it's kinda weird.

[Luminos564]

YouTube Link.

 

They seem really good, nice to see 2D being useful during combos. Randomizer meterless confirms are also nice, all them stats + Negative Penalty and 3k damage.

 

I got all of these listed, please do not trouble yourself again lol. One thing I'm wondering though is if I should include the added damage from poison in the damage value section. I mean, the combo technically doesn't do that damage I guess? I dunno, it's kinda weird.

 

Too bad you posted just as I finished Xp. Well if anyone is interested I do have it on me just in case you want to compare.

 

Lizzie Poison Combos

 

In order of appearance

 

-3985 [50] *Awakening.

-3763 [50] *Awakening.

-3904 [50] *Awakening.

-4361 [50] *Awakening.

-6398 [150] *Awakening.

-4018 [50] *Awakening.

-4525 [50] *Awakening.

-3605 [50] *Awakening. **2^nd digit is too blurry. This is either 3605 or 3805.

-3440 [50] Awakening.

-4197 [50] *Awakening.

-3545 [50] *Awakening.

-5795 [150] *Awakening.

-3297 [50] *Awakening.

-3621 [50] *Awakening.

-3822 [50] *Awakening.

-2786 [00] *Awakening.

-3568 [50] *Awakening. **Unsure of this one due to image quality. It can be 3568, 3668 or 3868.

 

As for the poison damage, you might as well not. If the damage isn't listed and since we know it is not the full duration of ~1,200 you might as well leave it out. But you can mention that the damage is increased due to poison for the readers, despite what the numbers say.

 

EDIT: That is of course, unless you DO know the actual poison value. If you have that information, you can include it on the side as additional damage. Like say, writing down Combo Damage value+Poison Damage or something.

 

As for the combos themselves, I like them. I mean, I am never going to be able to pull them off or anything because I'm a 10-thumbed twit who couldn't string together 5 moves if his life depended on it, but man Damosu makes Lizzie look almost viable. It's nice to know that when everyone has up and abandoned the character, there's at least someone out there willing to experiment instead of just picking Yu and winning 99.9% of the time.

[OmnixTSC]

If I remember correctly (and if I am wrong, I'm sure Omnix can correct me), poison added 1,200 damage throughout its entire duration. 

 

This is correct :P

 

What pleases me most is the fact that the midscreen/meterless Randomizer combo route does about 3k, and it inflicts fear + negative penalty. That's amazing. I didn't think that fear was fearsome (lol) in P4U, but I'm now convinced of the contrary in regards to P4U2. I'm really excited! The 2D combo routes are super nice; it seems like Elizabeth is back to doing explosive amounts of damage (7K off of 5A!!!). 

 

Don't forget that some of the Randomizer combos can inflict paralysis as well. Movement options are shutdown, they can't tech grabs, AND they have negative penalty inflicted on them in a situation where Liz can probably safe jump them? I think that's pretty BS, honestly. I'm loving every second of it, too. 

 

I thought fear was frightening (huehue) enough in the last game (people I play regularly will tell you just how much they hate it), but it seems like it's even more of a threat since we can combine that with negative penalty. It might end up being completely ridiculous in some situations. I'm kinda content with being able to do some damage and cheese people with setups if you put in some EVs.

 

As an aside, I should be updating the combo doc today w/ Luminos' info + these new combos.

 

Thanks for all of the hard work, you two. I'm too lazy to go through with this since I have enough character related content I have to deal with as is ;-;

[Kenturo]

At least we finally know why Damsou started winning all of a sudden. He finally got those combos down. 

[Mooglebane]

Back to the first game's corner bullshit, eh? Just... better this time. I'm scared. ;_;

[susano]

Back to the first game's corner bullshit, eh? Just... better this time. I'm scared. ;_;

 

We coming for joo. (~ o 3o )~

[Eshi]

Those 2D combos are some seriously good shit. At this rate I probably will stick with Elizabeth, the despair has subsided a lot. I wonder if it's possible to do these combos before hitting Awakening? As in, make any of these initial hits, combo into sweep > mind charge and THEN do SB garudyne into the routes shown. That'd be a really great way to convert damage, enter awakening and recover enough health to be worth the risk.

[Elochai]

The combo doc is 100% done now. Thanks once again to Luminous. 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvCrScNd_E2JF3kqdzZZZEaqq9o18QjvVV49vkiwnQk/edit?usp=sharing
 

[RifleAvenger]

New Elizabeth developments are making me rethink dropping her.  If she's back to crazy damage and status spam, I'm in.

 

On the other hand, I was getting really hype for Minazuki.

 

So... fuck.

[Dazardz]

Really nice Elizabeth video I saw there, congrats to Damosu for finding these things. Hmm, so Randomizer activates after the opponent recovers... so maybe resets... hmmmmmmmm

[RifleAvenger]

To be honest, I almost like it better this way.  There was one combo in that video that inflicted fear, negative, paralysis, and poison (though it was probably nearly done with) all in the same combo and corner carried.  That kind of set up is either going to get the opponent to do something really stupid, or allow Liz to get absurd damage off an untechable throw.

 

Negative mid combo would allow for a god deal of guaranteed damage off the randomizer combo itself, but the negative penalty would probably be nearly done with by the end of the combo, stopping liz from inflicting some kind of crazy reset with it (unless Neg. Penalty wears off in a different manner than other status).

[Luminos564]

The combo doc is 100% done now. Thanks once again to Luminous. 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WvCrScNd_E2JF3kqdzZZZEaqq9o18QjvVV49vkiwnQk/edit?usp=sharing

 

Think nothing of it. I was just glad to be able to be of some actual help. If anything, I had the easy job. You wrote down every single notation and compiled them into one neat little file. That's awesome and thanks a lot.

 

Negative mid combo would allow for a god deal of guaranteed damage off the randomizer combo itself, but the negative penalty would probably be nearly done with by the end of the combo, stopping liz from inflicting some kind of crazy reset with it (unless Neg. Penalty wears off in a different manner than other status).

 

 

IIRC, Randomizer has a set duration with version A having a very short one, while B/SB versions are long. Though I wonder, does Randomizer Negative Penalty wear off if Lizzie takes a hit like the other status ailments?

[Zephyrion22]

Though I wonder, does Randomizer Negative Penalty wear off if Lizzie takes a hit like the other status ailments?

 

 Nope, similarly to Rage, the status ailment will just go through its set duration regardless of what the opponent does.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Because I'm masochistic, I've been picking up Liz in P4U and will probably continue to play her in Ultimax. Just wanted to know the extent of her changes so I know what I'm getting into.

[Elochai]

Comparatively, you're not really getting into anything different IMO. Liz is pretty much still Liz.

However, if we're to examine Liz by herself, I would argue that she's a better character in P4U2(1.1). Her neutral game is better (faster agidyne, empire state building sized maziodyne, multi shot maziodyne, chargeable(!!!) maziodyne, fullscreen bufu, etc), she has a better reversal now in the form of Randomizer (you can combo off of this anywhere on the screen too unlike BD!!!) and to some extent her pressure is better (5a>5aa>5b>5bb stagger, 5c dash cancel, 2c buff on block, etc). I suppose you can write all of this stuff off as being "quality of life" buffs, but I think they make her better. 

 

Oh yeah, 5D is pretty bad in this version. I hope you didn't get into the habit of using it a lot.

[Dazardz]

Oh yeah, 5D is pretty bad in this version. I hope you didn't get into the habit of using it a lot.

 

Can 5D still grab crouching opponents? I thought I saw a pic where 5D whiffed on a crouching opponent.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Oh yeah, 5D is pretty bad in this version. I hope you didn't get into the habit of using it a lot.

 

Yea I saw that screenshot....I was pretty saddened.