[Xrd] Potemkin Gameplay Discussion

[wirestyle22]

I've wanted to learn guilty gear for awhile. I picked it up with one of my friends and always wanted to play Potemkin, but learned easier characters to learn the game first. I was finally at a point to where I could compete-ish, and they announced XRD (which is cross road right? right?) so I thought I'd just wait until it comes out to learn pot. He could change a lot and I don't want to have to re-learn. Well fuck me for being right. The pot forums have more tears than a bipolar chick reading a Nicholas Sparks novel. I'm not necessarily a grappler player typically, I don't really have an archetype. I just choose a character based on whether I find them interesting or not. Potemkin is interesting. How fucked am I seriously? Emo aside

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Expect to work your ass off for every win and have to practice and play the game a ton to keep up with other players playing better characters. You can definitely win with Potemkin, even against characters like Zato, but it's going to be a real uphill battle in Xrd. Watch FAB and Consome for inspiration and motivation. Pray for some buffs in the next revision.

[Brice]

If you're serious about learning Potemkin in Xrd, the wisest option is learning him in AC+R right now. There's no downside whatsoever in doing this. His normals didn't change (with the exception of one or two, like 6K), so getting a feel for spacing is important, his gatlings didn't radically change, so that's still something important to know, and learning a character in AC+R other than Potemkin, to get a ''feel'' for Guilty Gear in anticipation for Xrd, is not better than learning the character that resembles Potemkin the most aka Potemkin himself.

 

The process of re-learning is gonna be the same whether you play Sol,Ky,Pot or anyone else, you'll have to re-learn a character, and also a bunch of new mechanics anyway in Xrd and there's nothing you can do about other than playing Xrd.

 

You also said that you weren't a ''grappler'' player typically, so playing the grappler in any earlier version of the series is most probably the best way to learn Xrd Potemkin even before playing Xrd.

[sren]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPlRFeoVj-M Counter Hit crHS 

[wirestyle22]

If you're serious about learning Potemkin in Xrd, the wisest option is learning him in AC+R right now. There's no downside whatsoever in doing this. His normals didn't change (with the exception of one or two, like 6K), so getting a feel for spacing is important, his gatlings didn't radically change, so that's still something important to know, and learning a character in AC+R other than Potemkin, to get a ''feel'' for Guilty Gear in anticipation for Xrd, is not better than learning the character that resembles Potemkin the most aka Potemkin himself.

 

The process of re-learning is gonna be the same whether you play Sol,Ky,Pot or anyone else, you'll have to re-learn a character, and also a bunch of new mechanics anyway in Xrd and there's nothing you can do about other than playing Xrd.

 

You also said that you weren't a ''grappler'' player typically, so playing the grappler in any earlier version of the series is most probably the best way to learn Xrd Potemkin even before playing Xrd.

 

Do you have any particular advice about what I should be practicing? It doesn't seem like there are players online for the most part

[D.R.F.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPlRFeoVj-M Counter Hit crHS

Man I STILL fucking love this video

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Do you have any particular advice about what I should be practicing? It doesn't seem like there are players online for the most part

Better find some people to play IRL, the online for ACPR sucks and it's probably not going to be all that much better in Xrd.

Good stuff to practice is learning all the basic combos and gattlings. Learn how to Hammerfall break as quickly as possible. Learn how to do 6H -> Hammerfall real good because you're going to need that hardcore in Xrd. Get a feel on how your backdash works, it's super invincible but also really slow.

Learn the feel of FDBing projectiles, good candidates are Ky, Faust, and Venom in general, Sol's Gunflame, I-No's green fireball are real good to get a feel for too. Practicing in training mode might help a bit but you've really got to have someone be throwing that stuff at you to get it down.

Also, while Potemkin's normals are pretty similar between ACPR and Xrd in terms of frames and hitboxes, the properties on them are NOT at all. Similarly for his special moves. Lot of stuff is great in ACPR that sucks now in Xrd, a few things are terrible in ACPR that are good now in Xrd. Just expect to relearn a lot of stuff like Brice said.

[Circuitous]

and I'm not really clear on how good or bad the move is on block. Frame data suggests 27F startup and 57F total, which would mean that even if it's a Lv5 move, it'd be something like -14SD on block. Which is real bad.

I think Trishula might have special blockstun. I've seen it blocked and it didn't seem that negative. Hard to say, though.

Also, if you're not interested in playing Potemkin seriously in +R, it may be worthwhile to practice him in #Reload on PC or something. The properties on his normals are similar between #R and Xrd and might give you a better sense of how he'll play going forward. +R Potemkin is more fun, but the gameplan is different.

Note that if you do have any sort of offline scene for +R, I'd advise focusing on Potemkin there. Matches are far more valuable than training mode.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Yeah I think you might be right about the Trisula blockstun since the few times I've seen it blocked it did look pretty safe and didn't get punished.

Actually if it counts as an independent projectile that would make sense, the fire would be effected by hitstop but Potemkin would not be. At Lv5 that would mean 18F guardstun and 15F hitstop, so that would be roughly +1SD on block. At Lv4 it would be -2SD, Lv3 would be -6SD. I wonder if it has any pushback on block in the corner or not.

[Circuitous]

Yeah I think you might be right about the Trisula blockstun since the few times I've seen it blocked it did look pretty safe and didn't get punished.

Actually if it counts as an independent projectile that would make sense, the fire would be effected by hitstop but Potemkin would not be. At Lv5 that would mean 18F guardstun and 15F hitstop, so that would be roughly +1SD on block. At Lv4 it would be -2SD, Lv3 would be -6SD. I wonder if it has any pushback on block in the corner or not.

Now that you mention it, it didn't look like Potemkin or the fire were affected by hitstop when I've seen it connect. Also I think we discussed earlier on (very early on) that it was probably a projectile, and wondering if Potemkin could flick it.

[Coffeeling]

Man I STILL fucking love this video

I love his burst bait vs. Ogawa more than that video.

[Grim-reaper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb04wER5C2w&t=4m19s

AAAAAAAAAW MAAAAAAAH GAAAAAAAAAAAWD KONSOOOOOOOOOOOOME !

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

I see Consome tried PB -> 2P f.S on Venom, but it didn't work. Was he trying to get 2P c.S maybe?

The whole c.S vs f.S thing looks super annoying in Xrd because you can combo air hit P's to c.S but not f.S. And sometimes c.S doesn't come out even if you are close enough for it to hit. :/

[Uncivilized Elk]

So I just tried Potemkin for the first time in +R after learning all his moves and his general game plan, and now reading about all his nerfs in this thread has made me quite depressed. 

[bluzenblazen]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bSCFvy0-vXY

FAB May? Et tu Brute?

Edit: just realized that although FAB is on the Aime card, Kazuki is listed as the player in the description.

[Circuitous]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bSCFvy0-vXY

FAB May? Et tu Brute?

Edit: just realized that although FAB is on the Aime card, Kazuki is listed as the player in the description.

He just has FAB as his title (which FAB himself leaves blank). The actual name on the VS screen is at the top of the card.

[Circuitous]

Summary of changes from +R to Xrd, using information from the new 4Gamer wiki. Information may be incomplete since I can't translate the descriptions myself. Anyone that can do that would have my eternal thanks.

5P: Lost special untechable time.

5K: Startup increased 7 -> 10.

c.S: Unchanged.

f.S: Startup decreased 12 -> 11.

5H: Damage decreased 58 -> 50.

6P: Startup decreased 13 -> 11. Loses Special and Jump cancels.

6K: Completely changed.

6H: Damage decreased 90 -> 80. Frame advantage decreased -11 -> -16. Lost wall bounce on regular hit. Causes ground tumble state on counter hit. Removed initial prorate. Removed special blockstun. (Uncertain: dizzy modifier reverted to 1x? 1.5x?)

5D: Startup decreased 31 -> 27. Frame advantage decreased +3 -> +1.

2P: Damage decreased 13 -> 12. Regained self cancel. Startup decreased 9 -> 6. Frame advantage increased -2 -> +0. No longer hits low.

2K: Unchanged.

2S: Startup increased 13 -> 14. Frame advantage decreased -2 -> -6. Lost vacuum.

2H: Damage decreased 66 -> 60.

2D: Lost special cancel. Frame advantage increased -5 -> -2. Level increased 3 -> 4.

j.P: Startup increased 5 -> 7. Active decreased 9 -> 6. Gained special cancel.

j.K: Startup increased 9 -> 10. Gained special cancel.

j.S: Startup decreased 14 -> 13. Gained special cancel.

j.H: Startup increased 11 -> 13. Gained special cancel.

j.D: Startup increased 11 -> 13. Recovery increased 8+Landing -> 9+Landing. Gained special cancel. Lost ability to steer during descent.

Ground Throw: Damage decreased 45,30 -> 0,60.

Air Throw: Range increased 104 dots -> 115 dots.

Heat Knuckle: Damage increased 0,15x2,28 -> 0,15x2,40. Launches opponent away when finished, opponent can tech before landing.

Heat Extend: Damage decreased 95 -> 90. Reduced untechable time, opponent can tech before landing.

Mega Fist Forward: Startup decreased 25 -> 24.

Mega Fist Backward: Unchanged.

Slide Head: Startup increased 23,27 -> 25,29.

Hammerfall: Startup changed 19~35 -> 18~31. Frame advantage increased -18 -> -16.

Hammerfall Brake: Unchanged.

F.D.B.: Startup decreased 21 -> 19. Reflect period increased 4~14 -> 4~18. Reflected projectile startup increased 1 -> 2.

Potemkin Buster: Damage decreased 160 -> 140. Gained Roman cancel. Lost full invuln 3~5. Throw invuln decreased 1~16 -> 1~3.

Trishula: New.

ICPM: New.

Aerial Potemkin Buster: Gone.

Judge Gauntlet: Gone.

Heavenly: Damage decreased 170 -> 140. Full invuln increased 1~13 -> 1~15. Gained throw invuln for duration.

Giganter: Damage decreased 45 -> 30. Frame advantage decreased +9 -> 0.

Gigantic Blid: Damage increased 126 -> 145. Startup decreased 51 -> 49. Frame advantage decreased -19 -> -22. Lost wall bounce on hit, can still be followed up in/near corner.

Instant Kill: Changed from strike to ground throw. Startup reduced 11+6 -> 9+8 (5+6).

All the available frame data has been posted to our wiki as well.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

6H: Damage decreased 90 -> 80. Frame advantage decreased -11 -> -16.

In ACPR this causes Wall Bounce, it has a decreased Dizzy modifier (0.75x), it has forced 50% proration, and specially increased blockstun.

In Xrd I believe it is back to the original Dizzy modifier (1.5x), no proration, no special blockstun. On CH it causes roll state now.

2P: Damage decreased 13 -> 12. Regained self cancel. Startup decreased 9 -> 6. Frame advantage increased -2 -> +0.

I believe in Xrd it no longer hits low either does it?

j.D: Startup increased 11 -> 13. Recovery increased 8+Landing -> 9+Landing. Gained special cancel.

Lost the ability to steer this move IIRC.

Heat Knuckle: Damage increased 0,15x2,28 -> 0,15x2,40.

Lost the untechable drop property.

Hammerfall: Startup changed 19~35 -> 18~31. Frame advantage decreased -18 -> -16.

Should be 'disadvantage decreased' or 'advantage increased' since it's better.

Gigantic Blid: Damage increased 126 -> 145. Startup decreased 51 -> 49. Frame advantage decreased -19 -> -22.

Lost wall bounce property on hit.

Also list of moves he lost you might want to mention:

Air Potemkin Buster, Judge Gauntlet

Assuming this frame data is more accurate than what we had before, that sucks that forward megafist is actually still just -4 on block.

[Circuitous]

Ah, thank you for the corrections! I'll edit the post.

[D.R.F.]

Um correct me if I am wrong please, bit after watching a plethora of pot matches (FAB, Consome, and everyone else) I want to ask an important question: why don't pot players try to combo into I.C.P.M. more often, off of stuff like CH 6P or 6P (RC) jump combos into J.HS> j.42136HS?(and I understand you can't answer from exp., we don't have the game yet)

Edit: it is just that, having the corner carry and knockdown (I've seen it's awkward comboability too) sounds better than trying to play catch-up because you 623HS> Extended your opponent across the screen so know you have to slide head all the way back. Then again, you get all the meter from it so idk.

[Flick]

6H: Damage decreased 90 -> 80. Frame advantage decreased -11 -> -16.

In ACPR this causes Wall Bounce, it has a decreased Dizzy modifier (0.75x), it has forced 50% proration, and specially increased blockstun.

 

I can sure in +R 6H has init prorate, not force prorate

[Circuitous]

Um correct me if I am wrong please, bit after watching a plethora of pot matches (FAB, Consome, and everyone else) I want to ask an important question: why don't pot players try to combo into I.C.P.M. more often, off of stuff like CH 6P or 6P (RC) jump combos into J.HS> j.42136HS?(and I understand you can't answer from exp., we don't have the game yet)

Edit: it is just that, having the corner carry and knockdown (I've seen it's awkward comboability too) sounds better than trying to play catch-up because you 623HS> Extended your opponent across the screen so know you have to slide head all the way back. Then again, you get all the meter from it so idk.

CH 6P doesn't offer much in the way of combos because he can't jump or special cancel it. Even with counter hit, something like 5H > Heat is the best you'll get depending on positioning.

While you could RC it, it's generally more favorable to get the meter and push back in than spend it on mediocre damage even with knockdown. (In some matchups, however, it'd certainly be an option.)

And then there's hitstun decay. j.H > ICPM requires not only proper enemy height, but the combo has to have been short enough to have no hitstun decay. j.H, at level 3 (level 4 compared to our old numbers) causes 16f untechable time. ICPM has 16f startup. Granted, levels could have changed, but given the finicky nature of it, I dunno if it's consistently worth going for.

[D.R.F.]

CH 6P doesn't offer much in the way of combos because he can't jump or special cancel it. Even with counter hit, something like 5H > Heat is the best you'll get depending on positioning.

While you could RC it, it's generally more favorable to get the meter and push back in than spend it on mediocre damage even with knockdown. (In some matchups, however, it'd certainly be an option.)

And then there's hitstun decay. j.H > ICPM requires not only proper enemy height, but the combo has to have been short enough to have no hitstun decay. j.H, at level 3 (level 4 compared to our old numbers) causes 16f untechable time. ICPM has 16f startup. Granted, levels could have changed, but given the finicky nature of it, I dunno if it's consistently worth going for.

Hmm I see. Times like this where I wish I could ask FAB or Consome

[Circuitous]

You could always try tweeting them.

[badgerfan20945]

Um correct me if I am wrong please, bit after watching a plethora of pot matches (FAB, Consome, and everyone else) I want to ask an important question: why don't pot players try to combo into I.C.P.M. more often, off of stuff like CH 6P or 6P (RC) jump combos into J.HS> j.42136HS?(and I understand you can't answer from exp., we don't have the game yet)

Edit: it is just that, having the corner carry and knockdown (I've seen it's awkward comboability too) sounds better than trying to play catch-up because you 623HS> Extended your opponent across the screen so know you have to slide head all the way back. Then again, you get all the meter from it so idk.

 

You don't necessarily need to play catch up. I believe that if you YRC I.C.P.M after extend you can getto air dash for pressure if you want. I don't know how effective it is, but it uses less meter than trying to RC into ICPM.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoaaldYoWTo#t=121 One example right here. I've seen this twice in all of the videos I've watched.