C0R Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 (Sorry I hijacked your thread Kiba) Let's say a move is 8f startup and you know it's level 3 (16f blockstun) and it's -2 on block. Therefore you know that after hitting the first active frame it has (x remaining active+y recovery = 18) So you know the startup and the total recovery including active but you don't know the specifics on the two, couple different ways to find that. 1. You know it'll trade with another 8f move, but if it also trades with a 9f move then you have at least 2 active frames. (you can assure it trades instead of stuffing it by ranging out the hitboxes) If it trades with a 10f move it has 3 active frames (frames 8/9/10) and so on until it just whiffs and or gets hit out of the recovery) After identifying that is has, say 3 active frames, your recovery equation now looks like ([x=3]+y=18) and or (y=15), giving you the recovery outside of active. 2. You can do some tests with invulnerability. Let's say you know OD is 20f total full invulnerable, and you use a 16f move on the same frame (guaranteed via throw tech or something) and it still puts them in blockstun, that means you have at least 5 active frames (16+5= move remains active on the 21st frame, 1f after they come out of OD invuln) and it's all logic equations from there.
chzchan Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Haha the reason I PM'd you was to avoid the discussion thread becoming like this, but I guess this is alright. All I wanted were some methods so I could do the checks myself when I get my hands on the game. Thanks for all of this, though.
BatousaiJ Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey guys. Tsu sure has changed from her CP incarnation. It's a lot more things than I expected, honestly.
chzchan Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Everything is different. Everything. I am very very surprised at how strange everything feels.
BatousaiJ Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 236C is like crossovers on demand, and you can just use 236B/A when you want to keep the same side. Loving that change a lot. 623C > j.236(A) > 5C continuation is awesome as well.
Shruikon Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 236C is like crossovers on demand, and you can just use 236B/A when you want to keep the same side. Loving that change a lot. 623C > j.236(A) > 5C continuation is awesome as well. The j.236A(w) is cool but I'm still having issues getting it consistently. On the other hand, I haven't encountered a situation yet where j.214A/B/C(w) won't work instead, and I can pull that off much more consistently.
chzchan Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 They made so many things stiffer though. The 236X series in particular. They are like super negative on block too.
BatousaiJ Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 No matter, you shouldn't be using 236X series outside of combos anyhow unless you're planning to RC it. Is 421D > 236D still plus and projectile invul though?
chzchan Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Yes it is or at least it should be. As for the usage there are a bunch of gimmicks that no longer work because of how they are now. I think they got sped up though so combos won't drop anymore.
Velvien Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Loving the changes overall, but I have to wonder: are 5A and 2A VS starters now? I can't seem to do any sort of full combo off of them beyond like 5A > 5BB > 5CC > 236B/C > 214B > 22.
chzchan Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Try 5A5CC > 623C > j.236A(w) > 5C2CC > sj.C > dj.CC > j.214A Anyone know how to get 214D > jccCT down properly? I am having trouble.
BatousaiJ Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Anyone finish Tsu challenge 20 yet? I got to like 13 but I'm running short on ideas. 214D > jccCT Just input 6~AB the moment the opponent is hit and is flung into the air, if you're holding 6 too early you'll jump. The timing is fairly flexible and the CT can come out fairly slow and it can still connect so just delay it enough and you should get it fairly consistently.
chzchan Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Being able to do 6CC > 22[D] midscreen is amazing. I'm not sure if being able to jcc into other specials besides CT out of 214D will be of any use in the future. 5A is probably still -2 and 2A is definitely still 0. They got their attack level upped but their recovery got increased by 2 frames each. 623X is now a VS starter and 214X is an S starter. 236X series does what it used to do before CP where it would push the opponent a certain distance during the late startup and active frames while the opponent is blocking. 2B is still 13 frame startup. 6A is still 26 frame startup. 5C is still 8 frame startup. 5B is still 10 frame startup.
chzchan Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Doing the frame by frame on recorded video. I did short tests of frame advantage by doing the jumping test after blockstun. Startup is just until the move goes active (though I guess this is against the convention that the wiki uses because the first frame of active is counted as startup). I know for a fact that 5A got attack level upped because 5A>5B is no longer a frame trap unless delayed on top of the sound thing. I may be doing things wrong, so tell me if I am. I'm not even going to attempt doing active frames as C0R instructed until I have the time. 236D and 421D > 236D not going full screen bothers me.
Airk Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Being able to do 6CC > 22[D] midscreen is amazing. I'm not sure if being able to jcc into other specials besides CT out of 214D will be of any use in the future. 5A is probably still -2 and 2A is definitely still 0. They got their attack level upped but their recovery got increased by 2 frames each. 623X is now a VS starter and 214X is an S starter. 236X series does what it used to do before CP where it would push the opponent a certain distance during the late startup and active frames while the opponent is blocking. 2B is still 13 frame startup. 6A is still 26 frame startup. 5C is still 8 frame startup. 5B is still 10 frame startup. Increased attack level with increased recovery is kinda bad. =/ I really don't care that it makes 2A > 2B possible as a combo; There isn't really any reason to do that anyway. =/
BatousaiJ Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Tsu's easy breezy get in on dudes for free tools have been toned down quite a bit with the way 236X and 421D > 236D works now so get used to playing better footsies and using 421A/j.236A to try to cover your approach more rather than using them just to zone people out. 2B is still 13 frame startup. 6A is still 26 frame startup. 5C is still 8 frame startup. 5B is still 10 frame startup. That's helpful, keep em coming if you can.
Errol Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Doing the frame by frame on recorded video. I did short tests of frame advantage by doing the jumping test after blockstun. Startup is just until the move goes active (though I guess this is against the convention that the wiki uses because the first frame of active is counted as startup). I know for a fact that 5A got attack level upped because 5A>5B is no longer a frame trap unless delayed on top of the sound thing. I may be doing things wrong, so tell me if I am. I'm not even going to attempt doing active frames as C0R instructed until I have the time. 236D and 421D > 236D not going full screen bothers me. It looks like you changed some numbers since I posted, but yeah, it seems that there might be a margin of error for this technique? Not sure, Maybe you were just counting 1 frame off? And maybe it's pretty accurate. My usual way of testing things like this is stuff like seeing what combos and what doesn't, etc, and solving for everything.
BatousaiJ Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 One change that seems consistent with the whole "less powerful defensive tools" philosophy is that our standard 3D 623D > j.236D > j.214D series starter doesn't get as much from what I can see so far. If memory serves it used to do something like 3k ish now it seems more like 2.6k with a standard non-charge/meter combos and the knock down is limited. 6A combo improvements are a nice touch though, especially at midscreen with 25 meter and 1 charge doing like 4k ish is pretty damn sexy. Edit - What's the frame data on 6B? Is that still our only + normal?
chzchan Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 6B is exactly the same. Same startup and +1 on block. We have a + special, though, 236D. Just eyeballed it but I think it is +2/+3. It looks like you changed some numbers since I posted, but yeah, it seems that there might be a margin of error for this technique? Not sure, Maybe you were just counting 1 frame off? And maybe it's pretty accurate. My usual way of testing things like this is stuff like seeing what combos and what doesn't, etc, and solving for everything. Daedron and Shruikon told me that things seemed off and they were all off by 1. Shruikon told me about startup on the wiki being the frames up until the first active frame plus the first active frame which I did not know was the convention. Now that I know this I can try to not screw up. I'll try a few different methods. Like I know for a fact that 2C was probably made slower because of the drops from 5A despite 5A getting its attack level buffed.
BatousaiJ Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 236D is + now? That's a nice change, can you tell where it becomes + and if it's - if it's blocked too close?
chzchan Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 Oh it is plus at point blank. That was what it got in return for no longer crossing through the opponent. It has quite a lot of pushback so it being plus only works as a pressure reset on opponents that don't use barrier.
Zouf Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 I've only done the challenges but i haven't noticed anything odd about the buffer. Combos are much more difficult though because they are heavily space dependent. And DP > 5C is not as easy as i thought it'd be. 214D > CT is ok. You just need to input 8 once, and then do A+B. Don't hold 8 or CT won't come out. From the few hours i spent using her, she's probably the most difficult Tsubaki (haven't tried CS1 one though) of the entire serie. Combo wise at least (neutral looks pretty much the same) Also, is it just me or 5C/2C lift much higher now?
BatousaiJ Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 You did Challenge #20? I spent about 10 minutes on it but I can't be bothered to finish that one off.
chzchan Posted April 23, 2015 Posted April 23, 2015 The adjusted buffer if it is even real doesn't really mess with Tsubaki that much aside from the 236B > 214B > 22 (delay) > 5D > 6C combos. All of my friends having much more trouble with their inputs is telling me there is a buffer adjustment and also the fact that I can't do the blade super 100% of the time anymore tells me something was changed. It might be in all of our heads, though. DP > 5C is super easy once you get down the j.236A timing. I am actually having a very difficult time getting the 2C > j.B > j.CC(delay) > 2C juggle down out of all the new things that aren't the combo I mentioned above. Here's some great news on the charge rate. 5D and 2D now have accelerating charge rates. Here is my data so far. 0-1 44f 1-2 39f 2-3 33f 3-4 29f 4-5 26f About to test if it is time dependent or charge bar fill dependent. It is time dependent. Charge versus Time(frames) Charge Rate versus Time(frames)
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