Dreiko Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Regarding throw teching, the window may be 15F but when you add the actual grab startup in there it becomes 22 which is quite reactable, the trick is to look for the grab startup to react to, not for the !!s. Ultimately, good mixup is about a myriad things which, all of them combined, make the guessing game harder. This is why a char with more but slower mixup options like Bang whose fastest overhead is 22f (5C is only 18f when the hitbox is just covering his head, it won't actually hit standing/crouching people until frame 24) feels as though he has more threatening mixup than Jin with his 19f 6A. (and both Bang's 6B and Jin's 6A are not comboable overheads without rc so they're identical in that too).
Poultrygeist Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I would be interested in reading that article as well. I don't really play BB like I used to but reading your posts got me thinking more in depth about playing offensively and the different ways it's done, and what situations I'd want to use what offensive tools in. I feel a lot of times when some people refer to offense or pressure they do so in terms that are too vague and all encompassing for a subject that can vary highly depending on several factors such as character, situation, matchup, player, etc. I feel it would be highly beneficial to me to read such an article, at least.
Tong Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 This article also covers Reaction Speeds, I recommend giving it a read: http://kayin.moe/?p=2047
skd Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 yeah, ill make a more structured article on this but its probably good to talk about stuff somewhere. Regarding throw teching, the window may be 15F but when you add the actual grab startup in there it becomes 22 which is quite reactable, the trick is to look for the grab startup to react to, not for the !!s. Ultimately, good mixup is about a myriad things which, all of them combined, make the guessing game harder. This is why a char with more but slower mixup options like Bang whose fastest overhead is 22f (5C is only 18f when the hitbox is just covering his head, it won't actually hit standing/crouching people until frame 24) feels as though he has more threatening mixup than Jin with his 19f 6A. (and both Bang's 6B and Jin's 6A are not comboable overheads without rc so they're identical in that too). whoah there, bang high low is not nearly as threatening as jin high low. Both 5C and 6B are super easy to block IMO, the presence of two mixup options are not nearly enough to make it scary, especially two options with such deliberate animations as his. Bang can do some stuff, especially between command throw and bumpers, but his basic high low mixup tools are pretty weak.
Airk Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Regarding throw teching, the window may be 15F but when you add the actual grab startup in there it becomes 22 which is quite reactable, the trick is to look for the grab startup to react to, not for the !!s. Ultimately, good mixup is about a myriad things which, all of them combined, make the guessing game harder. This is why a char with more but slower mixup options like Bang whose fastest overhead is 22f (5C is only 18f when the hitbox is just covering his head, it won't actually hit standing/crouching people until frame 24) feels as though he has more threatening mixup than Jin with his 19f 6A. (and both Bang's 6B and Jin's 6A are not comboable overheads without rc so they're identical in that too). People always say this about grabs, and frankly, I think it's garbage (and SKD made a comment that supports this when talking about Jin 6A). Many characters have grab animations that you are not going to react to. It doesn't really matter if there are 7 extra frames of animation if you can't see them. And even 22 frames isn't "reactable" when you're thinking about anything much other than "Is he going to throw me now?" And this, actually, Mac is why I'm so confused by my terrible throw teching the other day. Because I was literally thinking of nothing else but trying to tech throws after that ONE SPECIFIC MOVE, and I STILL wasn't doing it.
Dreiko Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 yeah, ill make a more structured article on this but its probably good to talk about stuff somewhere. whoah there, bang high low is not nearly as threatening as jin high low. Both 5C and 6B are super easy to block IMO, the presence of two mixup options are not nearly enough to make it scary, especially two options with such deliberate animations as his. Bang can do some stuff, especially between command throw and bumpers, but his basic high low mixup tools are pretty weak. I was including grabs and bumpers and hover cancel normals in the mixup I was mentioning, not purely high-low. And yeah that's kinda my point, each individual thing is actually meh in a vacuum but when combined with everything there's so many ways one can go that the actual act of defending becomes harder, even if the overheads are actually reactable and the command grab is slow and everything. At least his lows are either + or safe so you can end pressure with them and keep going somewhat.
skd Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) People always say this about grabs, and frankly, I think it's garbage (and SKD made a comment that supports this when talking about Jin 6A). Many characters have grab animations that you are not going to react to. It doesn't really matter if there are 7 extra frames of animation if you can't see them. And even 22 frames isn't "reactable" when you're thinking about anything much other than "Is he going to throw me now?" And this, actually, Mac is why I'm so confused by my terrible throw teching the other day. Because I was literally thinking of nothing else but trying to tech throws after that ONE SPECIFIC MOVE, and I STILL wasn't doing it. i agree about not being able to see the animation for most throws, but i don't think 22 frames is unreactable if you aren't looking for it. I'd probably draw that line a bit lower. Regardless, if you were playing Mac online i can't really say that helps at all. The important thing about playing offline is being able to manage how much time you'll need to deal with specific options, its crucial to give yourself as much room as possible to commit to things that you'd want to. However, me saying i agree with not being able to see the animation for most throws also may imply that you can react to much less. And, yeah. You can. And Dreiko, the thing is, bang isnt as scary to block often period. You really dont want to let him get set up if possible, and there are ways to disrespect his mixup in a way that his pressure game can't contest as well as Jin's does. So, as far as not only mixup tools, but other pressure tools go, Jin's are much more cohesive and offer much more consistently scary situations. To a degree, if you can't guard against that situation you will want to avoid it. Jin generally has a much easier time making you eat that scary mixup situation, and the various ways to deal with throws definitely make Bang's command grab veryyyy risky, especially considering the strength of his basic pressure. Overall, Jin's normals and pressure compliments a throw game much better than bang's does, and the effect compounds itself when he has meter. I've played a decent amount with Dora, and i've played a decent amount of with good Jin players who are not nearly as renowned, and that call is very cut and dry to me tbh, saying Jin isnt as threatening as BANG isnt something that really clicks. Edited April 9, 2015 by not_lunaris
Dreiko Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I feel Jin has to actually hit you once for his mixup to become that level of scary though while Bang just needs you to let him get in or let him toss some airdash D nails. That's the main difference. Jin just does frametraps and stagger mixups for days and if he actually lands something then the ice stuff becomes really scary and stable and everything while Bang can transition into mixup from neutral in easier ways and with a more threatening mixup to go to. Of course Jin being consistently high tier in CP and Bang being lower B or whatever he ended up as, Jin will still come on top but I feel it's less due to scary mixup period and more due to his ice mixup once he has already gotten a hit which is less a testament to how good his mixup is and more a testament to how good his ice is in allowing him to set up really hard to deal with mixup in a way that if other chars had available to them they too would be just as scary in the least, if that makes sense.
mAc Chaos Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Regardless, SKD played Dora and so he knows the best of the Bang mixups. He would have the best frame of reference to compare it to Jin. Instead of saying he is wrong, you should be trying to figure out why he thinks it is worse than Jin's mixup, or asking him to explain what's wrong with your reasoning. (That doesn't mean everyone can just come in here and act like a bunch of shit flinging apes two years out of high school over a moveset in a video game like last time. That was a disgrace.)
Dreiko Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Regardless, SKD played Dora and so he knows the best of the Bang mixups. He would have the best frame of reference to compare it to Jin. Instead of saying he is wrong, you should be trying to figure out why he thinks it is worse than Jin's mixup, or asking him to explain what's wrong with your reasoning. I don't think having fought a good Bang player will impart to you knowledge comparable to actually having used the character for dozens of thousands of matches over multiple years, though. Just telling me "I fought dora a lot so I know better than you" is not gonna be enough to convince me lol. Also I wasn't saying he was wrong period, more that he is correct but not entirely so. I was specifying in which way I believed he may have misjudged the strength of Jin's mixup when compared to Bang's.
mAc Chaos Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Well, obviously you would want details so you can actually understand why. But I was saying it more as the mindset you should bring to the discussion.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Dreiko, I think they just want you to explain yourself, very explicitly so you make your point, rather than just saying "I played Bang, so OBVIOUSLY I am right and nobody else can tell me otherwise". You might actually be right, but nobody will believe you if you don't make a convincing argument. I like this, I believe this is most informative discussion about this game we've had. Its much better than the usual shitposting we do on here.
skd Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) im kind of offended you think i'd just say something with as little weight behind it as "i played him, so i know!" from a defensive standpoint, and as a competitive player myself, what do you THINK i care about? what do you think i'd try to consider? do you think i wouldnt be interested in figuring out what bang's offensive tools best structure his offense towards? I need to understand these things to deal with them best. Just because you play the character, it doesn't mean you understand his offense :\ Other people have been playing for much longer, have put in more hours, and may end up even farther from where they should be. Time doesnt mean anything. Regardless of that, I feel Jin has to actually hit you once for his mixup to become that level of scary though while Bang just needs you to let him get in or let him toss some airdash D nails. That's the main difference. Jin just does frametraps and stagger mixups for days and if he actually lands something then the ice stuff becomes really scary and stable and everything while Bang can transition into mixup from neutral in easier ways and with a more threatening mixup to go to. Of course Jin being consistently high tier in CP and Bang being lower B or whatever he ended up as, Jin will still come on top but I feel it's less due to scary mixup period and more due to his ice mixup once he has already gotten a hit which is less a testament to how good his mixup is and more a testament to how good his ice is in allowing him to set up really hard to deal with mixup in a way that if other chars had available to them they too would be just as scary in the least, if that makes sense. I dont necessarily agree on your perception of Jin pressure and feel like your idea of bang pressure is unrealistically strong. I don't think you have a good idea of proper defense against your character, and definitely do not have a good idea of Jin's offensive goals. Talking about mixup post hit, bang probably has better ways of opening up an opponent who chooses to respect, but he has a much harder time actually demanding that respect. Pressure and mixup are both directly related, why would I give you the light of day for this mixup situation that i might have to block 16 ways if all i have to do is move out of the way to avoid. Avoiding situations, disrespecting situations that best demand in terms of risk/reward, are all parts of good defense. If i have to mash 2A to get out of this situation, how effectively you can stop me from 2Aing is also part of the mixup. i will say explicitly, Jin offense without setup is definitely stronger than bangs. Jin's offense with ice setup does lead into tricky situations, and it is much harder to disrespect. Bang may have an easier time with raw mixup after setup, but a good opponent will make you need to weigh "pressure" effectively as well. If you aren't considering pressure as a part of the "threat", then we've kind of strayed from the point of "high level" (read: optimizing) discussion. At this point to really get to the root of the problem it would be me trying to understand why you have whatever perception of jin and bang, how their pressure works, etc. Edited April 9, 2015 by not_lunaris
LaowPing Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I feel like reacting to grabs should be more about the what comes before it. Unless you grab on wake up, every green grab has a calling sign. A pause in pressure or multiple 2A's. You can react to what comes before the grab more easily than the grab itself.
skd Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 (edited) I feel like reacting to grabs should be more about the what comes before it. Unless you grab on wake up, every green grab has a calling sign. A pause in pressure or multiple 2A's. You can react to what comes before the grab more easily than the grab itself. this is not a good idea because you might hang yourself trying to tech a throw that never comes, or comes later. The game is designed with a system for punishing throw tech inputs, even if you barrier OS. The best ways to attempt to tech a throw if you can't react fall into a number of outcomes depending on the character you are fighting and the situation (wakeup, blockstun). You don't want to over commit to something that you can get punished for if you don't have to, a good player really will kill you for making a bad defensive choice like this. Bad throw tech decisions are probably one of the biggest pitfalls i see in a lot of midlevel players. Edited April 9, 2015 by not_lunaris
Fame96 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 as a GOOD DUSTLOOP MEMBER, ill try to push a discussion here while we wait for 2.0, maybe educate some people, since apparently not many people have very accurate ideas on how offensive, high/low/throw mixup is implemented PRACTICALLY and end up with unrealistic expectations of their own reactions or something terrible because they only play bad players (practical application is important, because while people find the ideas easily agreeable, their application of those ideas onto BB's tools is very off). I don't care about netplay personal exp, low level "opinions" that dont have much reasonable basis or whatever, this is about efficient implementation in BLAZBLUE not the 2 delay game that resembles it. The fact that i have to spell this out makes me feel some type of way but you know, i am a largely optimistic person (and an elitist asshole, as you can sum up from this preamble). i want to talk about the kind of "mixup philosophy" that goes into characters at very high level. What is good mixup? What is consistent mixup, different styles of mixup and things like that. Obviously we have good ideas of the extremes. characters like rachel and valkenhayn, with unreactable instant overheads, and we have slow standing overheads at the other end of the spectrum. But, there are a lot of speeds in between. So...how do you hit a competent opponent with a reactable mixup? What kind of reactable mixups can we consider consistent? Normally, these reactable mixups are comboable, or don't leave you in a terrible position on block (reasonable, considering the fact that they are a lot harder to land), where a lot of other extremely fast overheads are unsafe without meter, or lack cancel options. You cannot speed up a move with an RC, but you can make one safe, even give you a better combo. So realistically, these pan out as more useful. While you might be able to do a slow overhead and retain pressure (this implies less investment in actually going for it, where other overheads could leave you punishable or ) couldnt you pick a better option to use in your pressure? This kind of limits the usage of things like ragna 6b and gauntlet hades. While ragna 6B DOES let you keep something resembling pressure, why would i go for that when i could opt for better usage of my advantage situation? This contrast is seen in two normals that were recently mentioned, jin 6a and relius 6a. obviously, jin 6a is much, much better. You can't quite take these in a void. There are distinctions between the two, as well as the presence of strong mixup with meter (you CAN get a fuzzy off relius 6A with meter provided they don't instant block it, then...) but comparing all sorts of situations that come from usage of the overhead (how fast is it? reversal on reaction? cancel options into it? what kind of resources can i use to supplement the utility of this overhead? do i have a way to obscure it? how easy is it to get my opponent to respect in a situation where they'll have to eat this? how beneficial is meter for this overhead?) we can come to the conclusion that jin 6A is ultimately much more useful. Ill take a consistent, low damage/hard to convert mixup over a high damage mixup that is only going to hit once in a blue moon. Of course, it isnt so black and white and reward IS generally mediated around how hard it is to hit someone with something like this (theres a reason why jin overhead is only comboable on RC) but consistent mixups are much more effective.It is much more difficult to hit with jin 6A than it is with wolf brake jA. People will sometimes react to 6A! What makes this distinction different than people reacting to relius 6A more often than Jin 6A? what makes some mixup consistent, but others not? what is worth going for? Well, as far as the current top level of play has demonstrated, we can definitely call some forms of mixup relatively consistent. Jin 6A falls into this category. This is the kind of mixup where I feel it is difficult to guard unless you are aware of it. If you expect something else, or dont see it coming you are going to get hit. This isn't a property of its 19 frames, but rather that in conjunction with it's animation. WHATEVER it is, it has proven itself. The number of frames doesnt necessarily matter. Another good example is hakumen 6B, even then that is really pushing it as far as reaction. I think it's possible, but super, super difficult. Again, this isnt because of the speed but because of the animation. Where else do we see things that are...difficult to actually defend against successfully on reaction? Oh, throws. Yes, throws, no, i dont give a shit what you heard from dacidbro, you can react to a throw. Yes, there is more to a throw than the exclamation mark. Yes, throws have subtle animations which could make reacting to them difficult. However, it is NOT that simple. You are not going to tech a throw unless you are ready for it, and applying focus properly is a huge skill as well. It is well within human ability to consistently react, given the right frame of mind, but getting thrown off (pun not intended) by an unpredictable opponent makes throws extremely strong offensively. Same goes for other forms of mixup. Within high level play though, people will get thrown. It is a very worthwhile form of mixup to pursue, especially because the reward for throws are VERY HIGH. However, there are a few ways to defend against throw properly which shape your pressure structure, which i will cover in a later post if people would like.There comes a point where looking for one thing will impede you when looking for another. However, some things are just so damn slow that you don't even have to be looking, or it does not detract from your defense enough to cause any verifiable harm. This is why relius 6a is straight booty (highlighting this for you, myoron). Its too slow, too obvious to make someone really that scared IMO. It might hit occasionally, but vs an opponent with good defense it will not pan out so successfully, you are much better off just taking normal pressure. So, when i talk about "harder to hit with" this is harder to hit with to a point where it is kind of a waste of opportunity. But, if youre playing vs bad players go for it i guess? Not to say it is useless, as sometimes going for the safe mixup is the right choice. but, i am only talking about raw offense. How to open people up MOST effectively. remember that whole "decent at best" quip? Well, okay. Relius mixup is...reactable (fuzzy is dead next version okay), but what makes it strong is that it is hard to react to and also very safe. It is this safety that allows him room to work. That safety in itself is good, so safer mixups (that are not necessarily the most difficult to block) are still very useful. Relius offense is great precisely because he can maintain difficult to guard mixup while being very safe and having a TON of options, the overall value on his pressure is definitely not "decent at best", lol. Safe mixups that are low commitment aren't necessarily bad to go for. If you lose nothing for it, why not? But yeah, at this point i'm going a bit off topic. I want to focus on how to open people up. So, a rough example of what is good in that "looking for one thing" line of thought? While looking for jin 6A, instead of 6A he whiffs 5A and he throws you. Or, instead he takes a step back, and you realize this. And then he throws you. Or, he just throws you. This isn't necessarily a 50/50 mixup or anything of the sort. You could mash, fuzzy jump, backdash. There are a ton of ways to response, even just blocking well. you could respond to this situation VERY well and very consistently, but he also has the option to pressure you normally, maybe even moving you into a more disadvantaged position. However, this is good mixup. This is consistent mixup. Strong players will get hit by this if implemented properly, unpredictably, and with good regard to risk/reward. The best players will straight up block or tech vs these tools reasonably well, but even then it is STILL "good". Anything we can do to improve our offensive reasoning. Maybe, one day people will all get so fucking good that we will guard against throw/18f overhead like gods. I dont think so, but this is one step closer, so bear with me for the sake of example.So, simply put it isn't only about the overhead, implementation of the overhead is also very important. How demanding it is to successfully guard (or tech) is instrumental in pressure structure. In a heavy blockstun situation, where I KNOW i don't have to worry about the threat of a throw for x number of frames, it is easier to guard against jin 6A during that time. Normally, this means jin placing himself into a bigger risk for opening me up, as blockstun literally limits your opponent. Why does he need to extend himself that much to hit me? Vs some players you might be able to run this kind of mixup. It definitely would be more effective, as it is in your interest to minimize risk, right? But that priority is precisely why a good player who adheres to risk/reward well will be expecting, and ready to guard against something like that. It makes it "obvious", in a sense. Eventually, we have to draw lines at where things become superfluous as situations and responses start to cross over into eachother, and these lines generally dictate optimized responses. Talking from my corner of expertise, Izayoi is a great example of having reactable, consistent, strong mixup with very unique properties that should help flesh out some ideas. Let's talk about her meterless Gain Art mixup, because her metered mixup is actually just unreactable, flat out. Fuzzies, noir edge is 10f, i dont know what else to say lol. she has a good medium between reward and consistency of mixup that overall ends up in her standard offense being very strong. Her damage is really high, her mixups are really fast (For the sake of numbers off dash, jA is 16f, jB is 18f, jC is 21f, and her 2A is an 8 frame low), and are all generally advantageous on block. She has a ton of cancel options, being able to go for IAD's off certain things, whiffing into lows, throws, occasionally left right. Shes a fiend. If you block, you are going to get opened up. She does come with her own meter though, but that also means she has the option to burn resources for strong, hard to disrespect mixups. But these dashes are also only really possible in neutral, because you cant cancel into them. Or, in IAD's cases they are much slower, which means you do have to commit heavily for those really fast mixups, as the safer ones are a bit slower. She can do all of these things to kill you but, only given the right implementation of respect, or resources. Right off the bat, there is a limitation to how safe she can be while performing these mixups. This is intentional, and is part of the design of mixup for her, and in this game. As a result of her offense being so reliant on that, she is also given ways to dissuade attempts to disrespect her pressure. Certain reversal safe strings, low profiles, high damage, strong conversions, good frame traps, and heavy frame advantage. But, this means you have to really work your magic, and get your opponent to "let you" so to speak, unless you have the resources to back it up. When i say that, i mean that i believe dash jB is reactable. It is her go-to overhead for a number of character specific hoo-ha reasons that i won't go into, but it is 18f. I personally think this is reactable, but it is "one of those". Particularly demanding to block. On defense, coupled with other forms of mixup, it becomes nigh unreactable (which is where the focus on implementation comes in), given the respect. The necessity for respect that the tools design somewhat constrict you to ultimately allows her higher reward than other characters with safer mixups of the same speed, because it is "harder" to land, so to speak. Though, not all mixups are balanced equally in a void (gauntlet hades cry your heart out, you negative, reactable piece of trash), you cannot really look at WHY these things are the way they are in that scope. In part of her larger character design, she needs resources. She is a mode change character. Normal mode is centric around neutral play and staggered pressure, her only standing overhead in normal mode is negative on block, uncomboable, and has a literally useless feint (not really related, but i wanted to vent). While GA more than makes up for this on Izayoi's behalf, not everyone gets the nice life. Some characters are outright better than others, unfortunately, especially when it comes to certain properties. Not everyone can mix up, not everyone can play neutral, and not every cloud has a silver lining. Sometimes design just does not pan out well. But when it comes to Izayoi opening people up in GA, she is proficient, and when it comes to keep respect, she is proficient, ultimately meaning her GA offense as a whole is hella good. Those are the kinds of things to look at when analyzing a character's offensive tools, and this isnt even all of her shit, just a very general look at a specific area. I hope this gets people to look at things in a more accurate light :> this is actually the longest and least sarcastic "i am fed up with seeing dumb things" post i have ever made. After reading this i can definitely see why people will always consider, unless they make some serious changes, terumi's mixup is very weak. While he can be good at demanding respect from his opponent, there are not enough variables to keep them guessing (especially meterless) J.2D is pretty much dead now unless you have 36 or more heat (gains 14 on hit if i recall correctly). With heat the reward is considerably higher but similar to relius' 6a it is fairly easy to react to unless you use it in fairly awkward situations. Since it is not +3 anymore this usually means you're pressure ends when blocked and the more creative situations to use j.2D carry alot more risk. Command grab...............Do I even need to talk about this one. Now the stomp supers, on paper they sound great. Both have similar animations, and they have some invuln during active frames. The problem is that the reward is just not there unless you use alot of resources, The low option cannot be comboed from without 100 heat, and the midscreen bounce is gone. This makes it highly situational but it can have its uses. 5C RC mixup is by far his best option. He has many options off of it and most of them are safe if they guess correctly. If they guess wrong midscreen you get good corner carry and about half of your resources back. In the corner you can choose between damage and getting your resources back depending on the situation. Overall great option. Ok I should stop now. Terumi rants are not going to get me anywhere. Just gonna play my character and do my best. I still find it hilarious that people STILL mash lows on Terumi's 6B
Fame96 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 this is not a good idea because you might hang yourself trying to tech a throw that never comes, or comes later. The game is designed with a system for punishing throw tech inputs, even if you barrier OS. The best ways to attempt to tech a throw if you can't react fall into a number of outcomes depending on the character you are fighting and the situation (wakeup, blockstun). You don't want to over commit to something that you can get punished for if you don't have to, a good player really will kill you for making a bad defensive choice like this. Bad throw tech decisions are probably one of the biggest pitfalls i see in a lot of midlevel players. I am very guilty of this myself. I never did learn the fuzzy jump either. I really am shooting myself in the foot when it comes to defense.
LaowPing Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 After reading this i can definitely see why people will always consider, unless they make some serious changes, terumi's mixup is very weak. While he can be good at demanding respect from his opponent, there are not enough variables to keep them guessing (especially meterless) J.2D is pretty much dead now unless you have 36 or more heat (gains 14 on hit if i recall correctly). With heat the reward is considerably higher but similar to relius' 6a it is fairly easy to react to unless you use it in fairly awkward situations. Since it is not +3 anymore this usually means you're pressure ends when blocked and the more creative situations to use j.2D carry alot more risk. Command grab...............Do I even need to talk about this one. Now the stomp supers, on paper they sound great. Both have similar animations, and they have some invuln during active frames. The problem is that the reward is just not there unless you use alot of resources, The low option cannot be comboed from without 100 heat, and the midscreen bounce is gone. This makes it highly situational but it can have its uses. 5C RC mixup is by far his best option. He has many options off of it and most of them are safe if they guess correctly. If they guess wrong midscreen you get good corner carry and about half of your resources back. In the corner you can choose between damage and getting your resources back depending on the situation. Overall great option. Ok I should stop now. Terumi rants are not going to get me anywhere. Just gonna play my character and do my best. I still find it hilarious that people STILL mash lows on Terumi's 6B I feel command grab is decent if you've demanded respect.
D.R.F. Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 ^ Not really. It's too obvious, and what else are you really looking for anyway?
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I feel command grab is decent if you've demanded respect. Which he really can't do and the command grab is pretty easily telegraphed anyway. You can easily just mash 2A during the startup.
Airk Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Which he really can't do and the command grab is pretty easily telegraphed anyway. You can easily just mash 2A during the startup. I semi-accidentally threw Terumi out of his command throw last night. :P His command grab is not strong. 25 frames is a LOT. I feel like reacting to grabs should be more about the what comes before it. Unless you grab on wake up, every green grab has a calling sign. A pause in pressure or multiple 2A's. You can react to what comes before the grab more easily than the grab itself. This...isn't a good idea. It's also why people do long strings of staggered 2As sometimes, just to screw you up for trying to do this.
Fame96 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 Which he really can't do and the command grab is pretty easily telegraphed anyway. You can easily just mash 2A during the startup. I honestly think he's pretty decent at demanding respect but yeah command grab is ass unless used in a really awkward situation and even then it's not that great.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 I honestly think he's pretty decent at demanding respect but yeah command grab is ass unless used in a really awkward situation and even then it's not that great. I mean, you can either barrier or jump out of most of what he does. You'd have to really know how to use his tools to demand respect with him and even then. Terumi's I watch tend to back off after a few hits and back into neutral.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 To show that I am not completely hard on Terumi, he can look good in the hands of someone competent: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25436991
Fame96 Posted April 9, 2015 Posted April 9, 2015 To show that I am not completely hard on Terumi, he can look good in the hands of someone competent:http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm25436991 Did we ever get this terumi player's name?!
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