LaowPing Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 In the end everyone is just a player hitting buttons. If you put people on a pedestal too much you will be doing yourself a disservice. I remember this video Jiyuna posted about LK and how he was asking this JP player how to become good and the JP player was confused cause to him they were equals already. It's this sorta thing. Just cause you're good or you've done well it doesn't really mean your word is law. To debate or disagree with something someone like that says is fine. I don't even think about all of this in that ego-couched logic of "when you ask questions you admit you're weaker" or whatever that I read here, that's the silliest concept ever. Nobody knows everything and discussion benefits everyone, even the people giving the answers. Ultimately, I'd hold being "starstruck" for different instances of events. People being better at fighters than you just means you get to have more fun improving yourself and challenging them again hoping the result will differ. It's a fun thing. If people expect others to kowtow to their favorite players just cause they themselves are so awestruck, well, that's a silly way to be. :P Nah man, I just wanna have good games. The best way to have good games is against strong opponents and those are found in competitive scenes. Asking questions about something just means you don't know something. Nothing more nothing less. I have known people who get touchy when you explain stuff to them and who get offended by the implications that arise when you explain something (that they very clearly don't understand based on their play) but that's the silliest way to be. I don't think the majority of players think like that. This guy... I like this guy. Except nobody is putting anyone on a pedestal? If somebody knows more about something than you do, isn't a natural thing to ask them questions and defer to their knowledge? How is that being "awestruck"? Nobody is sitting here being like "ZOMG SKD, SO KEWL" we're asking someone who has a much better understanding of the game to clear up some misconceptions about it that we have. I think he was referring to the way SWD disagreed with SKD (love the acronyms btw) and SWD got shut down for it. While SKD does have a better understanding of the game than the vast majority of us, counter points should still be given their fair shot. All of this is relative anyway. What SKD said about mix-ups matters most on the highest level of play that most of us haven't reached. As Errol pointed out, your level of play determines you perception of the game. In japan, some players rate Carl as higher on the tier list than Kokonoe (1.1). That's because the level of play for Carl in Japan is higher than it is in the states. As a result, he is seen differently. @LoawPing, If you have an opinion that differs from someone, your state of mind is usually "I'm right, you're wrong" regardless of the argumentative fallacy of being right BECAUSE he's wrong. The state of self-importance of being right regardless of why is the ego. Everyone has an ego, it's just a matter of how well we keep it in check. You're not wrong, it's not that complicated, but my statement and point was simple enough: some people don't like being wrong, and they'd rather other people be wrong instead of learning to be right themselves. These are the kinds of people you rarely see here because we choose not to give them the time of day, so I digress before I go too far off topic. I'm not sure who this "Loaw" person is but I'm sure he would love to reply to your comment. Someone should look for him.
Hollysmoke Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I'm not sure who this "Loaw" person is but I'm sure he would love to reply to your comment. Someone should look for him. Sorry. I fixed it D; Didn't mean to typo your name.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I think he was referring to the way SWD disagreed with SKD (love the acronyms btw) and SWD got shut down for it. While SKD does have a better understanding of the game than the vast majority of us, counter points should still be given their fair shot. All of this is relative anyway. What SKD said about mix-ups matters most on the highest level of play that most of us haven't reached. As Errol pointed out, your level of play determines you perception of the game. In japan, some players rate Carl as higher on the tier list than Kokonoe (1.1). That's because the level of play for Carl in Japan is higher than it is in the states. As a result, he is seen differently. SWD got shot down not because he "dared to challenge the law of the mighty high level player" but for trying to make claims despite lack of information. Its like a 13 year old arguing he knows more about something than a 60 year old, despite the latter doing it for far more years and would be in a much better position to make a claim. And you're exactly right, not a lot of us have reached high level of play, so shouldn't that mean you should actually try to listen to what a high level player actually has to say, instead of just blowing them off with "Pfft, well that's just like your opinion man. If you do it MY way then, its clearly good". If you don't really care about high level play and just prefer to play at your own level, why even get involved in the first place? It seems counterproductive to argue a point you have no interest in.
LaowPing Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Sorry. I fixed it D; Didn't mean to typo your name. Much better, (it's a pet-peeve of mine). SWD got shot down not because he "dared to challenge the law of the mighty high level player" but for trying to make claims despite lack of information. Its like a 13 year old arguing he knows more about something than a 60 year old, despite the latter doing it for far more years and would be in a much better position to make a claim. And you're exactly right, not a lot of us have reached high level of play, so shouldn't that mean you should actually try to listen to what a high level player actually has to say, instead of just blowing them off with "Pfft, well that's just like your opinion man. If you do it MY way then, its clearly good". If you don't really care about high level play and just prefer to play at your own level, why even get involved in the first place? It seems counterproductive to argue a point you have no interest in. I feel that the "mighty high" and the "60 year old" analogies are saying the same thing. Yes, SKD has more experience when we shouldn't be surprised when someone with a different idea of the game comes along to disagree with him. It's only natural that we refute something that contradicts with something we believe. If anything, SWD only contributed to the conversation by discussing the bumper set ups which weren't mentioned. it's less of a "you are clearly wrong" and more "I don't agree because of this point you did not mention." Or at least that's the way I interpreted it. I always give people the benefit of the doubt. And what's the difference between shutting someone down and someone saying "Pfft, well that's just like your opinion man. If you do it MY way then, its clearly good". In that scenario both parties are saying "You're simply wrong"
Dreiko Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Except nobody is putting anyone on a pedestal? If somebody knows more about something than you do, isn't a natural thing to ask them questions and defer to their knowledge? How is that being "awestruck"? Nobody is sitting here being like "ZOMG SKD, SO KEWL" we're asking someone who has a much better understanding of the game to clear up some misconceptions about it that we have. Like seriously, if you really think there's an issue with asking someone for advice then I don't even know how to respond to that. That alone shows some arrogance, that you feel you don't need advice and just make assumptions. Look what I quoted. I'm not talking about asking questions here. I'm talking about this line of thinking of "are your experiences even comparable to his? who are you to question him?" and that sort of rhetoric. Everyone's comparable to everyone and everyone can question everyone else. There's no hierarchy, some people just suck a bit less and some win a bit more lol. If anyone has anything they feel they can say that disproves something, they should go ahead and say it. We gain nothing by silencing people for not winning as many majors as the people they're disagreeing with. Even if they end up wrong, them being shown to be wrong is in itself much more beneficial than them simply seeing themselves as unworthy and remaining quiet.
DJ_Blactricity Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 SWD got shot down not because he "dared to challenge the law of the mighty high level player" but for trying to make claims despite lack of information. Its like a 13 year old arguing he knows more about something than a 60 year old, despite the latter doing it for far more years and would be in a much better position to make a claim. And you're exactly right, not a lot of us have reached high level of play, so shouldn't that mean you should actually try to listen to what a high level player actually has to say, instead of just blowing them off with "Pfft, well that's just like your opinion man. If you do it MY way then, its clearly good". If you don't really care about high level play and just prefer to play at your own level, why even get involved in the first place? It seems counterproductive to argue a point you have no interest in. You know it's funny that your essentially putting SKD on a pedestal. What a high-level player says isn't law. The information should speak for itself, but often times it comes from a player who's put on a pedestal. If another player, a low-level/lesser known, posted what SKD did. It would probably be passed over, or you all would jump down his throat. If LK or any other high-level player disagreed with SKD I wonder what you all would do. I myself do not agree that jin has better mixup than bang. The exact reason was never said so my curiosity compels me to find out why myself. I struggle with dealing with bang, and opening players up. So I have to ask myself: Do I know as much as I thought I did about my character? Does jin having better mixup have something to do with dealing with certain defensive options?(Fuzzy jump comes to mind, and bang not being able to delay gatlings like jin.)
floatwater Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I'm so sorry that this snowballed so fucking hard I shoulda really not have said anything lmao
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Ya know, you guys are making it really hard to make a response when I keep getting quoted D:< I feel that the "mighty high" and the "60 year old" analogies are saying the same thing. Yes, SKD has more experience when we shouldn't be surprised when someone with a different idea of the game comes along to disagree with him. It's only natural that we refute something that contradicts with something we believe. If anything, SWD only contributed to the conversation by discussing the bumper set ups which weren't mentioned. it's less of a "you are clearly wrong" and more "I don't agree because of this point you did not mention." Or at least that's the way I interpreted it. I always give people the benefit of the doubt. And what's the difference between shutting someone down and someone saying "Pfft, well that's just like your opinion man. If you do it MY way then, its clearly good". In that scenario both parties are saying "You're simply wrong" But that's assuming SKD was speaking in a vacuum about Bang at all. Why would he talk about one aspect of a character and ignore another part? This is how misconceptions start, people viewing things in a small scale. Part of this discussion is giving both sides the benefit of the doubt, but it should be based on information that's sound and makes sense. Look what I quoted. I'm not talking about asking questions here. I'm talking about this line of thinking of "are your experiences even comparable to his? who are you to question him?" and that sort of rhetoric. Everyone's comparable to everyone and everyone can question everyone else. There's no hierarchy, some people just suck a bit less and some win a bit more lol. If anyone has anything they feel they can say that disproves something, they should go ahead and say it. We gain nothing by silencing people for not winning as many majors as the people they're disagreeing with. Even if they end up wrong, them being shown to be wrong is in itself much more beneficial than them simply seeing themselves as unworthy and remaining quiet. Anyone can question everyone else, but everyone is not comparable, or at least not in the way you're saying they are. If someone is more skilled at you than something, that would clearly put them at a level higher than you, unless you don't believe that, at which case I'd like to understand why. I'm not saying that people should be quiet if they have something to say, I do believe in freedom of speech. But once in a while, we gotta consider if what we're saying is actually right and if so, why is that and compare that to the experiences of the person we're talking with. You know it's funny that your essentially putting SKD on a pedestal. What a high-level player says isn't law. The information should speak for itself, but often times it comes from a player who's put on a pedestal. If another player, a low-level/lesser known, posted what SKD did. It would probably be passed over, or you all would jump down his throat. If LK or any other high-level player disagreed with SKD I wonder what you all would do If a person says something that makes sense and is logically sound, why shouldn't I(or anyone) listen? Whether its SKD, LK, Lich, or whoever the hell you wanna cite. If the information makes sense, then it should be worth listening to. It really doesn't matter who posts what, what matters is what is being posted and if it makes sense, not to you but to everyone. I've been on this site for like 4 years, if i didn't care to listen to people, I wouldn't even be here lol.
TD Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Jin has more mixup than bang because he has more terms attached to him that he is capable of utilizing in an effective way. When you think of stagger pressure, Jin has it great. Plus frame normals, he has plenty. Frame traps? Fast and slow ones that lead into plenty of options. Etc. Essentially, no one is able to consistently March to the beat of Jin's drum. His rhythm can potentially be so varied to the point of having to guess which button he will hit next, and having the answer. it's a different form of aggressive, unlike the in your face high/low characters in this game. Jin will make you think he has reverse gatlings, whereas Bang is sort of like a rhythm monster, and that isn't too great when it comes to deception. Since, as mentioned, he cannot stagger pressure as well anymore (d nails made him very good, but still not quite on the level of Jin). His mixup options come after specific normals and usually doing them would end a string shortly thereafter. Not to say Bang does not have good mixup, but one can see it as risky even as he is pressuring the foe. Bangs strength comes from the neutral game, and his pressure game offers returning to safety vs. going all in, but Jin is quite prepared for most situations in this game, depending on the player controlling him. Someone said bang shouted out every attack he did and it made him honest, and it trended. If you take a look at his normals and pressure strings, even bumpers, you can see his personality in there, too. Edit: Henaki wrote an article on different types of mixup a few years ago that could explain very well what's going on with Jin's pressure.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Someone said bang shouted out every attack he did and it made him honest, and it trended. If you take a look at his normals and pressure strings, even bumpers, you can see his personality in there, too. Guess Jin's playstyle makes sense then, it really does feel like he's insulting you with every move he makes lol. EDIT: Damn we got a full house tonight.
Dreiko Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Anyone can question everyone else, but everyone is not comparable, or at least not in the way you're saying they are. If someone is more skilled at you than something, that would clearly put them at a level higher than you, unless you don't believe that, at which case I'd like to understand why. I'm not saying that people should be quiet if they have something to say, I do believe in freedom of speech. But once in a while, we gotta consider if what we're saying is actually right and if so, why is that and compare that to the experiences of the person we're talking with. I don't believe that because it's a useless distinction at this level for the most part when you have a lot of very serious players who have all spent a lot of time and have a ton of useful knowledge to offer. It more often than not is used as a way to avoid having an actual discussion. It's like saying "I won so I'm right" when you could have won just due to having better reaction speeds or having practiced your combos more or just cause you were lucky or something. Of course that doesn't cover every single good result but you get my point. Reminding people of their skill hierarchy for the purposes of debating does little to foster good debate. If someone has to merely flash a badge and gain insta-credibility to whatever they have to say that can eat away at how much effort they put into what they're saying. Hell, I bet SKD himself would prefer it if he had nobody else championing his status so his very well developed points could shine purely out of their own value. Yes obviously one ought to think before they speak...but one ought to be able to speak without being externally questioned by third parties regarding how much thought he put before addressing the great divine.
mAc Chaos Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Just let it go Black Yakuza. SKD will probably say something on his own soon enough. If not then there's no point in going in circles over it.Everybody just wait for SKD.
LaowPing Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Jin has more mixup than bang because he has more terms attached to him that he is capable of utilizing in an effective way. When you think of stagger pressure, Jin has it great. Plus frame normals, he has plenty. Frame traps? Fast and slow ones that lead into plenty of options. Etc. Essentially, no one is able to consistently March to the beat of Jin's drum. His rhythm can potentially be so varied to the point of having to guess which button he will hit next, and having the answer. it's a different form of aggressive, unlike the in your face high/low characters in this game. Jin will make you think he has reverse gatlings, whereas Bang is sort of like a rhythm monster, and that isn't too great when it comes to deception. Since, as mentioned, he cannot stagger pressure as well anymore (d nails made him very good, but still not quite on the level of Jin). His mixup options come after specific normals and usually doing them would end a string shortly thereafter. Not to say Bang does not have good mixup, but one can see it as risky even as he is pressuring the foe. Bangs strength comes from the neutral game, and his pressure game offers returning to safety vs. going all in, but Jin is quite prepared for most situations in this game, depending on the player controlling him. Someone said bang shouted out every attack he did and it made him honest, and it trended. If you take a look at his normals and pressure strings, even bumpers, you can see his personality in there, too. Edit: Henaki wrote an article on different types of mixup a few years ago that could explain very well what's going on with Jin's pressure. I feel like your talking about stagger pressure more than mix-ups. If you include stagger pressure as a viable mix-up option then sure, Jin's is better (and so is Terumi's btw). Otherwise I don't really agree. Sure, Jin's 6A is faster than any of bang's non-bumper overheads than sure, but only that one move that you only get reward from using meter or counter hit. Plus, he can only use it after three of his normals. The fortunate thing about something being "better" relates to what I aid a few pages back. When ever you use the word "better" it's an opinion and can be argued. If you feel Jin's mix-up is better due to the speed of 6A or if you count his stagger pressure as part of his mix-up then more power to you. If someone else says Bangs is better due to the fact that he has more high/low, left/right, and command grab, then they can say that without truly being wrong.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Just let it go Black Yakuza. SKD will probably say something on his own soon enough. If not then there's no point in going in circles over it. Everybody just wait for SKD. Awww, but I like but I talking about things D: Real talk tho yea, this is kind of getting off topic and I'm not that informed to really speak for anyone, so I'll let the man himself handle it. Kbai, going to eat cheez-its :V Hope I said something worthwhile, if not then I'll just listen some more.
Hollysmoke Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Awww, but I like but I talking about things D: Real talk tho yea, this is kind of getting off topic and I'm not that informed to really speak for anyone, so I'll let the man himself handle it. Kbai, going to eat cheez-its :V Hope I said something worthwhile, if not then I'll just listen some more. *6A's your cheesits out of your hands* Bet you didn't see that one coming >8(
TD Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I feel like your talking about stagger pressure more than mix-ups. If you include stagger pressure as a viable mix-up option then sure, Jin's is better (and so is Terumi's btw). Otherwise I don't really agree. Sure, Jin's 6A is faster than any of bang's non-bumper overheads than sure, but only that one move that you only get reward from using meter or counter hit. Plus, he can only use it after three of his normals. The fortunate thing about something being "better" relates to what I aid a few pages back. When ever you use the word "better" it's an opinion and can be argued. If you feel Jin's mix-up is better due to the speed of 6A or if you count his stagger pressure as part of his mix-up then more power to you. If someone else says Bangs is better due to the fact that he has more high/low, left/right, and command grab, then they can say that without truly being wrong. For the first paragraph, that is pretty much what I am saying, including stagger. The bigger picture is that stagger pressure IS a part of mixup. The bigger picture is that mixup does not actually mean just high/low/throw/left/right etc as the end all. 2a 2a is a mixup in this game, and an effective one, of which I will explain. A mixup, my perception of it, is the ability to disrupt a foe's concentration on the screen forcing him to think of something while you do something else. That "something else" should be something of which is a direct counter to what the foe could be doing at any possible time. To me, looking at it this way, you can see the interaction between players as an entire mixup within itself, as in, you can literally point out a form of mixup every second the game goes on. This doesn't mean thinking any other way is wrong by any means. I do think though that thinking this way can make one a ton more resourceful when it comes to their neutral or x seconds of offensive time. As for the second, there is opinion, and there of fact. There is better, and there is optimal. You literally cannot say that Rachel and Valkenhayn are not the best high/low hitters in this game. You just can't. If your experience of the game is either not fighting enough of these two or not getting exposure to their options, yet you see someone with the same form of high low mixup like bang, you might think his is better, but the reality of the situation is that it is not the case. Plenty of people dumped months into this game, profoundly analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of each character to determine these things, after all. My point is that at higher level play, one must learn to look at the picture as a whole. Accuracy is extremely important in games like this, on so many levels, and it coincides with strategy. One must be willing to take the details as if they are pieces to a puzzle and not the puzzle itself.
TD Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 I suppose you could, if you feel that you have learned something from me. As for terumee having better pressure than bang, well. Ultimately, I think he has the normals to keep going for a long time potentially. He has very few but very interesting properties to beat certain mashes during pressure, and he can stop jumps reasonably well. Terum's big problem on this department is that he does not get the foe to stop blocking. Jin has his 6a, deceptive animations, lots of canceling frames in his attacks, plenty of options in general to work with. Terumi is more focused on frame traps. His high/low mixup is abysmal without heat, his command grab is exceedingly risky for decent reward, he doesn't get much out of midscreen combos or neutral without heat. He is a character that often finds himself wishing he could do more in most of his pressure. This means than his pressure becomes even more linear than bang. Most good players know that terumi has limited answers to certain options once he gets to a certain part in pressure. In his current iteration, he is not designed for this game. If primers still existed where he could spam 6b to break primers, or guard libra where continued pressure had even more of an impact, then his offensive game would be more scary. Heck, give him back his old j2d, that small gift of charity would make his life so much better (but still quite poverty).
LaowPing Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 For the first paragraph, that is pretty much what I am saying, including stagger. The bigger picture is that stagger pressure IS a part of mixup. The bigger picture is that mixup does not actually mean just high/low/throw/left/right etc as the end all. 2a 2a is a mixup in this game, and an effective one, of which I will explain. A mixup, my perception of it, is the ability to disrupt a foe's concentration on the screen forcing him to think of something while you do something else. That "something else" should be something of which is a direct counter to what the foe could be doing at any possible time. To me, looking at it this way, you can see the interaction between players as an entire mixup within itself, as in, you can literally point out a form of mixup every second the game goes on. This doesn't mean thinking any other way is wrong by any means. I do think though that thinking this way can make one a ton more resourceful when it comes to their neutral or x seconds of offensive time. As for the second, there is opinion, and there of fact. There is better, and there is optimal. You literally cannot say that Rachel and Valkenhayn are not the best high/low hitters in this game. You just can't. If your experience of the game is either not fighting enough of these two or not getting exposure to their options, yet you see someone with the same form of high low mixup like bang, you might think his is better, but the reality of the situation is that it is not the case. Plenty of people dumped months into this game, profoundly analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of each character to determine these things, after all. My point is that at higher level play, one must learn to look at the picture as a whole. Accuracy is extremely important in games like this, on so many levels, and it coincides with strategy. One must be willing to take the details as if they are pieces to a puzzle and not the puzzle itself. Two things First, you used literally wrong (another pet-peeve of mine). Second, best is still subjective. Rachel and Valk don't get much damage off of their overheads. If someone wants to say that kokonoe's overhead game is stronger because she gets more damage off of it, they can and they aren't wrong for it. They just value damage over options. If someone wants to say that Bang's high to low game is stronger due to the symbols he get's off of an overhead, opening up a very powerful super, they can, and they aren't wrong for it. You can't say someone's opinion is wrong. Well, technically you can, but it doesn't make them wrong. I've seen Valk's open up their opponent many times just to lose anyway due to the damage not being there. Same with Rachel, because, as you said, you have to look at the picture as a whole.
Chaoschao222 Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Two things First, you used literally wrong (another pet-peeve of mine). Second, best is still subjective. Rachel and Valk don't get much damage off of their overheads. If someone wants to say that kokonoe's overhead game is stronger because she gets more damage off of it, they can and they aren't wrong for it. They just value damage over options. If someone wants to say that Bang's high to low game is stronger due to the symbols he get's off of an overhead, opening up a very powerful super, they can, and they aren't wrong for it. You can't say someone's opinion is wrong. Well, technically you can, but it doesn't make them wrong. I've seen Valk's open up their opponent many times just to lose anyway due to the damage not being there. Same with Rachel, because, as you said, you have to look at the picture as a whole. Everybody just wait for SKD.
TD Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Two things First, you used literally wrong (another pet-peeve of mine). Second, best is still subjective. Rachel and Valk don't get much damage off of their overheads. If someone wants to say that kokonoe's overhead game is stronger because she gets more damage off of it, they can and they aren't wrong for it. They just value damage over options. If someone wants to say that Bang's high to low game is stronger due to the symbols he get's off of an overhead, opening up a very powerful super, they can, and they aren't wrong for it. You can't say someone's opinion is wrong. Well, technically you can, but it doesn't make them wrong. I've seen Valk's open up their opponent many times just to lose anyway due to the damage not being there. Same with Rachel, because, as you said, you have to look at the picture as a whole. I'm sorry, but no. Just because it's someone's opinion does not mean it is not wrong. If I saw someone telling someone new misinformation, whether it's their 'opinion' or not, I'm not going to just sit there and let someone believe that! How is that not common sense? Now if we have a casual setting not talking seriously and fucking around then sure, but to really think opinions should be treated with absolutism is just not cool. Respect, hell yeah, everyone should be respected, but when it comes to being wrong, something has to be said. I would love if someone respectfully corrected me on an opinion I may have if I was wrong. Then, if they are correct, I could avoid dying in the game, or saying that same thing on this forum and looking stupid in the future. Using words wrong is an entirely different subject, as long as you get what I am saying than I am good. I make plenty of typos too, for future reference. #IPhoneproblems
Hollysmoke Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Didn't I just make a post about not posting logical fallacies as opinion? Stay on topic please. We were talking about mixup / pressure strategies.
mixedmethods Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Guys, I want to let this thread rock, but if it devolves into "well, opinions aren't wrong" and other tangentials, infractions are going to be given out like lollipops at a doctor's office. Talk about CPE, discuss SKD's posts, talk about how to structure offence, whatever, but I don't want to wake up to 30 posts about what constitutes an opinion.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted April 10, 2015 Posted April 10, 2015 Don't worry guys, SKD will deliver We'll just have to wait.
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