[CP] News and Gameplay Discussion 2.0

[Poultrygeist]

Well being not as good as other characters isn't the same thing as being trash.  He can be inferior without being total garbage.  

[C0R]

OH you mean shots as in alcohol! 

 

anyways I got one more general question for you - Tell me about your experiences with ODR and how ppl used it successfully - how do you think it affects the gameplay and such. Im really interested in those insights 

GCOD has a place. As a pure defensive option I believe bursting out of blockstun is better, but GCOD has it's unique advantages.

 

First thing I want to mention is how GCOD would be used ideally.

 

Overdriving through the active frames of a gatling, causing it to whiff, and allowing you to punish. Because you can cancel from the first frame of blockstun, you have the potential to complete the GCOD and still be stuck under pressure via recovering from GCOD near the same time that their gatling becomes active (happened more than once). Alternatively if their gatling has a quick startup/recovery they'll just finish during GCOD and continue to put you in pressure. It's definitely going to take a clear head and advanced knowledge of how the opponent's strings actually work in application to use properly (by delaying or timing the GCOD at opportune windows inside of the blockstun of a single move alone).

 

Now there is a significant reward to this entire headache, mainly the damage. Bursts don't do damage, Overdrive combos do a lot of damage. I'm sure everyone can make the connection. Keep in mind the recovery windows of many moves after CP are not in CH state for very long and bet on a non-CH starter.

 

Now from µ's perspective... GCOD is kind of a nonissue.

 

1st - A considerable amount of your pressure is whiff gatlings and stein shots, things that you don't actually need to interact with you opponent for. They can feel free to GCOD after your 5c, but you just gatling'd into 5d, and now you're sitting there thinking "wow look at this guy go through all this startup, I should meaty whiff gatling 6c him out of the recovery, or just jump cancel ON WHIFF because I can do that haha ha this mechanic sucks"

 

2nd - GCOD suffers from multi-hit moves. Most multi-hit moves are cancelable so long as only the first part hits. Allowing you to gatling or cancel during the startup/active/recovery of the follow up hits even if they're cutting air. Good examples of this include Izayoi 2c and µ's new 6b. Time and again I would 2c someone with IZ, they would GCOD out of the blockstun of the first hit, the second hit would whiff through their invulnerability, and then I would be able to cancel out of the whiffing second hit into anything really (jump cancel into IAD j.b) and they died.

 

Example with µ 6b: they GCOD the first hit of 6b, expecting the 2nd hit to whiff and to punish the recovery. Except now you can cancel on said follow-up's whiff because of the property of this multi-hit move. Letting you late chain into 3c/5c/2c/xD>JC and they die horrible deaths.

[Fame96]

GCOD has a place. As a pure defensive option I believe bursting out of blockstun is better, but GCOD has it's unique advantages.

First thing I want to mention is how GCOD would be used ideally.

Overdriving through the active frames of a gatling, causing it to whiff, and allowing you to punish. Because you can cancel from the first frame of blockstun, you have the potential to complete the GCOD and still be stuck under pressure via recovering from GCOD near the same time that their gatling becomes active (happened more than once). Alternatively if their gatling has a quick startup/recovery they'll just finish during GCOD and continue to put you in pressure. It's definitely going to take a clear head and advanced knowledge of how the opponent's strings actually work in application to use properly (by delaying or timing the GCOD at opportune windows inside of the blockstun of a single move alone).

Now there is a significant reward to this entire headache, mainly the damage. Bursts don't do damage, Overdrive combos do a lot of damage. I'm sure everyone can make the connection. Keep in mind the recovery windows of many moves after CP are not in CH state for very long and bet on a non-CH starter.

Now from µ's perspective... GCOD is kind of a nonissue.

1st - A considerable amount of your pressure is whiff gatlings and stein shots, things that you don't actually need to interact with you opponent for. They can feel free to GCOD after your 5c, but you just gatling'd into 5d, and now you're sitting there thinking "wow look at this guy go through all this startup, I should meaty whiff gatling 6c him out of the recovery, or just jump cancel ON WHIFF because I can do that haha ha this mechanic sucks"

2nd - GCOD suffers from multi-hit moves. Most multi-hit moves are cancelable so long as only the first part hits. Allowing you to gatling or cancel during the startup/active/recovery of the follow up hits even if they're cutting air. Good examples of this include Izayoi 2c and µ's new 6b. Time and again I would 2c someone with IZ, they would GCOD out of the blockstun of the first hit, the second hit would whiff through their invulnerability, and then I would be able to cancel out of the whiffing second hit into anything really (jump cancel into IAD j.b) and they died.

Example with µ 6b: they GCOD the first hit of 6b, expecting the 2nd hit to whiff and to punish the recovery. Except now you can cancel on said follow-up's whiff because of the property of this multi-hit move. Letting you late chain into 3c/5c/2c/xD>JC and they die horrible deaths.

Thanks for the post. Now I can rest easy.

[LaowPing]

BBCPE lets PS4 and PS3 players play together right? I know the vita won't have it but I wanted to make sure the consoles get it like with Xrd

[BlackYakuzu94]

Thank you for this video good sir. I'm adding this to my collection of "This character is not trash" videos.

He lands a lot of those "bad" command grabs by the way.... any case anyone was wondering.

Please do not take that video as "proof" of anything, it's just an example so please treat it as such.

You should really study that video and start analyzing WHY what Rocha(the Terumi player) worked and the mistakes the Azrael player made as well.

Keyword: analyze.

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[C0R]

BBCPE lets PS4 and PS3 players play together right? I know the vita won't have it but I wanted to make sure the consoles get it like with Xrd

ArcSys has the code built from Xrd, they likely will simply recycle it.

[Fame96]

Please do not take that video as "proof" of anything, it's just an example so please treat it as such.

You should really study that video and start analyzing WHY what Rocha(the Terumi player) worked and the mistakes the Azrael player made as well.

Keyword: analyze.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That azrael kept on getting his legs clipped. Most likely trying to jump out alot.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Pretty sure it's not as simple as that lol.

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[mAc Chaos]

Guys just FYI. If you're going to quote a gigantic post, either snip out most of it or just leave the quote out altogether and just write @COR or whoever so it doesn't take up half a page of scrolling.

[TD]

This is the most on topic I have ever seen this thread. I don't even know what to do, this is like an entirely new concept... Me scared of bright light type shit. At any rate, perhaps this will raise more interest into the game, with 2.0 only a few short weeks away.

[StylisH]

THESE CAN ALL BE USED AS REASONS TO WHY HE SUCKS:/. We all know that having damage for decades doesn't make a good character. The fact you put "etc." Makes this hilarious, as if there weren't ENOUGH problems with Terumi, THERE'S MORE

Well I was trying to be diplomatic, but screw it. You're right. Terumi is hopelessly ass. For shame.

[BlackYakuzu94]

This is the most on topic I have ever seen this thread. I don't even know what to do, this is like an entirely new concept... Me scared of bright light type shit. At any rate, perhaps this will raise more interest into the game, with 2.0 only a few short weeks away.

 

It definitely actually makes me wanna come into this thread and read instead of the usual shit that goes on in here.

[chzchan]

Usually claims like this are made based on watching jp match videos, which often appear to have awkwardly fast or smooth animation/speed differences from console versions due to different video encoding settings chosen by the uploader. Playing the game, getting around is the same.

 

Thanks for answering the questions. Those were all just a bunch of rumors, so I had to ask.

 

The gravity thing is probably the biggest one I want to have confirmed since things like consistent Tsubaki DP whiff routes, Tao standing loops on not Tager, Terumi jump loops, etc. wouldn't be possible if gravity wasn't stronger. Maybe it is just a whole bunch of move property changes. I don't know.

[LaowPing]

Please do not take that video as "proof" of anything, it's just an example so please treat it as such.

You should really study that video and start analyzing WHY what Rocha(the Terumi player) worked and the mistakes the Azrael player made as well.

Keyword: analyze.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have. I always do. I'm really good at figuring out fighting games.  I can see why Terumi used certain moves and how he was control Azrael. A lot of it was good grabs. He never really seemed to grab at the same place twice. Also, punishing Azrael's back dash was a great help. He seem kind of scared of Azrael at some points where he committed to turtle-ling and Az got in for free.

[C0R]

Thanks for answering the questions. Those were all just a bunch of rumors, so I had to ask.

 

The gravity thing is probably the biggest one I want to have confirmed since things like consistent Tsubaki DP whiff routes, Tao standing loops on not Tager, Terumi jump loops, etc. wouldn't be possible if gravity wasn't stronger. Maybe it is just a whole bunch of move property changes. I don't know.

Tsubaki DP whiff has existed in the game previously under the same gravity system, it's likely just reverting the properties they changed.

Tao has had standing loops on a wide variety of characters in multiple versions of the game under the same gravity system.

Terumi jump loops can be made possible via a few really really small chages (hitbox/startup)

 

I find it very unlikely there's any kind of global gravity change, in my experience these changes normally come down to adjustments of unique move properties.

 

Reason being anything that affects the core of the movement engine calculations is touchy and best left alone, as the potential impact of such a change is massive.

 

You can see examples of this in other ArcSys games, mainly the changes to YRC in Xrd. Why not just integrate a function to prohibit YRC Burst OS? Instead you see specific and targeted cases of fixing the mechanic on a per-problem approach (ex: Wild Throw can't be YRC'd after it's active frames)

[chzchan]

I know it has existed and it even works now, but it isn't consistent and usually requires a jab to catch. In 2.0 both Tsubaki and the opponent hit by the DP fall faster so Tsubaki can get out a slower normal. The opponent being closer to the ground makes things more consistent. You are probably right though, it is just a specific change.

[Dreiko]

But can you honestly say that your experiences are comparable to SKD's? If so, why?

 

I say that because I don't really know your experiences to compare them to SKD's, so I'd really like to understand why you feel he's wrong about them. Or rather, how and why can you sum up everything he said as "Bang mixup sucks compared to Jin's lol" 

In the end everyone is just a player hitting buttons. If you put people on a pedestal too much you will be doing yourself a disservice. I remember this video Jiyuna posted about LK and how he was asking this JP player how to become good and the JP player was confused cause to him they were equals already. It's this sorta thing. Just cause you're good or you've done well it doesn't really mean your word is law. To debate or disagree with something someone like that says is fine. I don't even think about all of this in that ego-couched logic of "when you ask questions you admit you're weaker" or whatever that I read here, that's the silliest concept ever. Nobody knows everything and discussion benefits everyone, even the people giving the answers.

 

 

Ultimately, I'd hold being "starstruck" for different instances of events. People being better at fighters than you just means you get to have more fun improving yourself and challenging them again hoping the result will differ. It's a fun thing. If people expect others to kowtow to their favorite players just cause they themselves are so awestruck, well, that's a silly way to be. :P

 

 

 

It's a psychological issue; you're participating in a competitive scene to prove that you're better than other people. By asking a veteran questions, it's the equivalent of admitting you are WORSE than someone (which is why people also were trying to prove SKD wrong). Ergo, ego. It's not a bad thing to ask questions. It's how I got better.

Nah man, I just wanna have good games. The best way to have good games is against strong opponents and those are found in competitive scenes. Asking questions about something just means you don't know something. Nothing more nothing less.

 

I have known people who get touchy when you explain stuff to them and who get offended by the implications that arise when you explain something (that they very clearly don't understand based on their play) but that's the silliest way to be. I don't think the majority of players think like that.

[C0R]

I know it has existed and it even works now, but it isn't consistent and usually requires a jab to catch. In 2.0 both Tsubaki and the opponent hit by the DP fall faster so Tsubaki can get out a slower normal. The opponent being closer to the ground makes things more consistent. You are probably right though, it is just a specific change.

Isn't it just the dive whiff combo? Tsubaki just has less recovery is all, it's in the changelog.

[Dreiko]

Isn't it just the dive whiff combo? Tsubaki just has less recovery is all, it's in the changelog.

I believe Tsubaki now does 623C>delayedj236A>5C and it works in such a way that j236A does not actually become active but it has almost no landing recovery (or perhaps none at all) so she gets to 5C right away. No microdash needed either.

[chzchan]

Nah that already works now perfectly fine, but you need to use 5A which kills the damage if you go for the j.236A whiff route instead of the j.214A/B whiff route. j.236A whiff route works with 5C in 2.0 because both you and the opponent fall faster. It is just more consistent due to the opponent's relative spacing when Tsubaki gets back to the ground. This is pretty much why I thought it had to do with system gravity.

[Errol]

I guess he goes by Amerikaqn for a reason.

 

Like father Like son

 

but really, to understand stuff you need to understand the contents of the matches. Generally, better players have a better understanding of the contents of a match.  It's not uncommon to have misconceptions. The more I play a matchup, my opinion on things can go back and forth

 

<Beginner----------Expert>

<----A-----B----C-----D---->

 

A. Hazama chains are godlike

B. IAD Over the chain, EZ

C. Just IB the Chain and 5A, no problem

D. Fuck ouroboros

 

you come full circle and realize that you hate Hazama just like you did when you started but you've got reasons for it.

 

The catch is every one out of A B C and D thinks they're right.

 

And I'm out.

[BlackYakuzu94]

In the end everyone is just a player hitting buttons. If you put people on a pedestal too much you will be doing yourself a disservice. I remember this video Jiyuna posted about LK and how he was asking this JP player how to become good and the JP player was confused cause to him they were equals already. It's this sorta thing. Just cause you're good or you've done well it doesn't really mean your word is law. To debate or disagree with something someone like that says is fine. I don't even think about all of this in that ego-couched logic of "when you ask questions you admit you're weaker" or whatever that I read here, that's the silliest concept ever. Nobody knows everything and discussion benefits everyone, even the people giving the answers.

 

 

Ultimately, I'd hold being "starstruck" for different instances of events. People being better at fighters than you just means you get to have more fun improving yourself and challenging them again hoping the result will differ. It's a fun thing. If people expect others to kowtow to their favorite players just cause they themselves are so awestruck, well, that's a silly way to be. :P

 

Except nobody is putting anyone on a pedestal? If somebody knows more about something than you do, isn't a natural thing to ask them questions and defer to their knowledge? How is that being "awestruck"? Nobody is sitting here being like "ZOMG SKD, SO KEWL" we're asking someone who has a much better understanding of the game to clear up some misconceptions about it that we have. 

 

Like seriously, if you really think there's an issue with asking someone for advice then I don't even know how to respond to that. That alone shows some arrogance, that you feel you don't need advice and just make assumptions.

[Hollysmoke]

Nah man, I just wanna have good games. The best way to have good games is against strong opponents and those are found in competitive scenes. Asking questions about something just means you don't know something. Nothing more nothing less.

 

I have known people who get touchy when you explain stuff to them and who get offended by the implications that arise when you explain something (that they very clearly don't understand based on their play) but that's the silliest way to be. I don't think the majority of players think like that.

 

I wasn't making a point to specific person, it's a broad generalization. It doesn't necessarily apply to everyone, but it exists. I've seen it first hand. These are the people who send you hate mail on PSN, or break their controller at a local or what have you. 

 

@LaowPing, If you have an opinion that differs from someone, your state of mind is usually "I'm right, you're wrong" regardless of the argumentative fallacy of being right BECAUSE he's wrong. The state of self-importance of being right regardless of why is the ego. Everyone has an ego, it's just a matter of how well we keep it in check. You're not wrong, it's not that complicated, but my statement and point was simple enough: some people don't like being wrong, and they'd rather other people be wrong instead of learning to be right themselves. These are the kinds of people you rarely see here because we choose not to give them the time of day, so I digress before I go too far off topic. 

 

The reason you can't YRC Wild Throw specifically ties into what SKD's been saying: it's input is 623K, vs someone like May's 632146K command grab or Ramlethal's 236K command grab: Sol is able to do it while running. Due to the system of the game, you can't run and throw without stopping, then throwing, or FDCing your run then throwing. The threat of Sol's command grab is part of his mix-up game. He's running at you, and he has that additional tool under his belt to pressure you with. Ramlethal and May don't have that advantage because of the way their inputs are laid out (mostly to avoid overlapping with 3x inputs as well as to avoid giving them that extra advantage). If you YRC Wild Throw under 50 meter, you'll either whiff YRC or grab. It's super safe. It's the same with Bang's command grab: Input lets you do it while running, which is pretty scary when you think about it (623C input) but because it's so slow on start up (13F) it's not as scary as it needs to be, and it's pretty punishable on whiff and there's no YRC to make it safe.

 

EDIT: I'm talking about 1.1 BTW, and May's command throw is going to be the same input as WT which is a buff. Sorry for the confusion. My point about command grab pressure still stands though.

[greatfernman]

The reason you can't YRC Wild Throw specifically ties into what SKD's been saying: it's input is 623K, vs someone like May's 632146K command grab or Ramlethal's 236K command grab: Sol is able to do it while running. Due to the system of the game, you can't run and throw without stopping, then throwing, or FDCing your run then throwing. The threat of Sol's command grab is part of his mix-up game. He's running at you, and he has that additional tool under his belt to pressure you with. Ramlethal and May don't have that advantage because of the way their inputs are laid out (mostly to avoid overlapping with 3x inputs as well as to avoid giving them that extra advantage). If you YRC Wild Throw under 50 meter, you'll either whiff YRC or grab. It's super safe. It's the same with Bang's command grab: Input lets you do it while running, which is pretty scary when you think about it (623C input) but because it's so slow on start up (13F) it's not as scary as it needs to be, and it's pretty punishable on whiff and there's no YRC to make it safe.

I don't follow. You can YRC WT, unless you're talking about 1.1 and YRC during active (which is what it sounds like cause you mentioned YRC OS), but then the same change happened to every command grab, so it's not a sol vs may vs ram thing.

Also if you're talking about 1.1 OHK is 623K now as well.

and they can all run up throw it's just more awkward for a 632146 motion. though it's not like ram has a 623K, so she can just 66236K and get command grab anyway. the thing about her command grab is it's really slow and has shit range

but this is cp general not xrd so you dont have to reply just ignore me i just had to say it my bad

[Hollysmoke]

I don't follow. You can YRC WT, unless you're talking about 1.1 and YRC during active (which is what it sounds like cause you mentioned YRC OS), but then the same change happened to every command grab, so it's not a sol vs may vs ram thing.

Also if you're talking about 1.1 OHK is 623K now as well.

and they can all run up throw it's just more awkward for a 632146 motion. though it's not like ram has a 623K, so she can just 666236K and get command grab anyway. the thing about her command grab is it's really slow and has shit range

but this is cp general not xrd so you dont have to reply just ignore me i just had to say it my bad

 

No, my fault, I should have specified that I was talking about 1.1 as well as the OHK input change. My post was a little confusing. Sorry (I fixed it). The YRC Command Grab nerf was global, blah blah blah stuff but the point I was trying to make still stands. It's more reliable with Ram than May but you miss an input and can potentially get 3K, or with May it's a little more awkward (although they are buffing it like you said). I was trying to correlate my point into CP to keep it on topic: Bang can do a running command grab, but it's not as scary as it needs to be.