[Xrd] Tier Discussion

[LifeIsGood4]

how bad is slayer exactly ? Should I stay away from him ?

[Orrax]

He's ok. He does good damage still, but some of his strong moves got nerfed (e.g. j.H). His normals are nonetheless good overall, and most people (myself included) seem to think he's viable.

[Pomparomp]

how bad is slayer exactly ? Should I stay away from him ?

 

Even the low tier characters in this game have good tools to work with.

[heavymetalmixer]

1)I'm talking about the fresh venom experience. 2)I mean compared to, say, Ram, El or Millia, where you're have to actually be braindead to not get a meaty disc, grenade, or sword after a knockdown . They just kind of do their thing and then you get to focus on your thing. With Venom there's a thought process just to get to the point of doing your mix up. j.k will whiff if they're too far, j.s will whiff if they're too close, maybe a p set > 5p would would work better ect, It's not easy to learn, training mode is pretty much worthless for it, so you need to just play a lot of games against every character until it's in your brain and you can do it without a thought, and in certain matchups venom can't afford to fuck up that oki even once. 

 

By finnicky, I mean his combos are all character, spacing, and blocking dependent. It's pretty simple when you get a good confirm and can focus on it, but just watch Venom's and how often a seemingly simple combo will drop compared to any other character. I see it all the time watching Jonoisan and saw it all the time watching KiT.

 

Yes I read your posts, lol. This is all before even getting into ball set play or how deliberate his neutral game is. I love Venom, but I completely agree with anyone saying not to play him if you want to win tournaments when you could just play one of the less punishing top 5 and get grips on them in a fraction of the time.

 

Millia's disk is never meaty, unless you finish a corner combo with the kunai > disk. That's why is not as safe as it looks.

[mynus]

How about elaborating why she suddenly is bananas? What exactly changed apart from a few frame adjustments, the addition of a really situational command grab and reducing the difficulty of her execution? Because I cant see how her gameplan changed.

Watch U-zen, Hasegawa, and myself.

First off how about shutting down everybody's reversals with VCL YRC, never being able to safely tech against her. Corner combos that give 4+ hit notes on oki, j.D FDC - now 100% with Burst which gives instant crossups and overheads off of jump cancellable moves (no one is blocking this), and impressive damage output, meter gain and set play.

She is consistently in high A, and her only downside is lackluster normals and challenging neutral due to hoverdash.

Every other reason she is nuts is easy to see in matches from experts.

[rubedo777]

I didn't read the entire thread but of what I read, I didn't see much about Bedman so...

 

First, why are there so few Bedman players? I read that only 3% of the Japanese playerbase uses Bedman.

 

Secondly, why is he so low tier? I've seen top players like Tsubu and Sabamisu be very consistent with him in terms of winning. Against Faust and Ramlethal the matches are generally hit or miss for Bedman (it's a hard matchup) but still I see them do very well overall...is it just because most Bedman players just aren't as good as Tsubu/Sabamisu and that the tierlist is based on the "general Bedman play"? If so, why is Zato so why if most of the character's placing is due to Ogawa being so good?

[DaiAndOh]

Venom isn't even that hard guys, come on. Execution is pretty easy for the most part and he has the normals to make neutral work, when it works. If it doesn't you're just boned I guess.

If it's so easy, I hope I don't see you drop anything at Apex.

Having the normals is one thing, using all his tools, many of which are precision based is another. When it doesn't work? If you want to win, not matter what character, YOU MUST MAKE IT WORK. He still has a fair amount of bad matchups to fight (Chipp is just straight :V, Millia, Ramlethal, Zato are really rough too).

Blacksnake has interesting thoughts on it. "Venom is the best character in the game...when he has a ball out".

It's true that Venom's space control and options are amazing with it out. But in his hard matchups (and even many ones closer to even), balls are to be earned against good players.

 

Since my post got misunderstood.What I meant to say is, for all the time you have to dedicate to learn Venom you could instead use that time to learn a more rewarding character if you want to win.

 

If you want to play for fun or because you like Venom, I have nothing against that and I 100% respect it. But if you really want to go serious, dedicate time into the game and win tournaments; he's not a good choice, even Dai said "don't play venom if you want to win tournaments".

Really, learning anyone outside Top 5 + Sol might as well be a waste in some ways. Me saying that is more of "winning tournaments is the absolute most important thing to me" situation. Venom CAN win tournaments, of course he can. Then again, it's going to be hard tin win no matter who you are when you're starting out, especially in highly competitive areas like the northeast, midwest, Houston, etc..

Barring a couple of combo options over the many iterations, executing with Venom has never really been an issue, and execution for just about any character becomes a non-issue with enough mindless repetition.  Utilizing formations in neutral against an opponent who doesn't hold still and being able to improvise in the many situations that can arise in a match are what take work, moreso for Venom than any other character because of the way his ball placements work.  He can be reasonably effective on a basic level, but making the most of what he has to offer demands a lot more of the player than pretty much any other character.

Although I disagree with the first statement (being on point in your charge can be quite hard...well I have subpar execution I feel to begin with I admit), but this is pretty spot on otherwise.

[Justice7541]

If it's so easy, I hope I don't see you drop anything at Apex.

Having the normals is one thing, using all his tools, many of which are precision based is another. When it doesn't work? If you want to win, not matter what character, YOU MUST MAKE IT WORK. He still has a fair amount of bad matchups to fight (Chipp is just straight :V, Millia, Ramlethal, Zato are really rough too).

Blacksnake has interesting thoughts on it. "Venom is the best character in the game...when he has a ball out".

It's true that Venom's space control and options are amazing with it out. But in his hard matchups (and even many ones closer to even), balls are to be earned against good players.

 

Really, learning anyone outside Top 5 + Sol might as well be a waste in some ways. Me saying that is more of "winning tournaments is the absolute most important thing to me" situation. Venom CAN win tournaments, of course he can. Then again, it's going to be hard tin win no matter who you are when you're starting out, especially in highly competitive areas like the northeast, midwest, Houston, etc..

Although I disagree with the first statement (being on point in your charge can be quite hard...well I have subpar execution I feel to begin with I admit), but this is pretty spot on otherwise.

 

Fite me, i rek u.

 

In all seriousness everyone has trouble vs. Chipp/Millia/Zato in neutral, and I think anyone with slow-startup zoning will have trouble with Ram.  If Venom does have a specific issue in neutral unique to him it's lack of good AA, so people can jump in on him all day.  Otherwise getting hit out of ball setups at neutral kinda sucks but it's not like he doesn't have good normals even without balls.

 

Execution-wise, Venom benefits from having an easy confirm normal (c.S) and pretty universal combo routes against most characters.  He does have your usual assortment of tight links and IADs and whatnot but he also doesn't really have to deal with anything like jump install, negedge, etc. either.  He may not be Sol/Ky/Sin easy but I can also think of way harder characters in this game, execution wise.  He barely even uses his chargers in most of his combos.  I will say that picking up Venom in Xrd was way easier than for me than +R May, Johnny, or Axl.  Or Xrd May/Axl for that matter.

[Stellarcircle5]

I guess I'm just bad because Millia vs Venom feels awful :V

[DaiAndOh]

Fite me, i rek u.

 

In all seriousness everyone has trouble vs. Chipp/Millia/Zato in neutral, and I think anyone with slow-startup zoning will have trouble with Ram.  If Venom does have a specific issue in neutral unique to him it's lack of good AA, so people can jump in on him all day.  Otherwise getting hit out of ball setups at neutral kinda sucks but it's not like he doesn't have good normals even without balls.

 

Execution-wise, Venom benefits from having an easy confirm normal (c.S) and pretty universal combo routes against most characters.  He does have your usual assortment of tight links and IADs and whatnot but he also doesn't really have to deal with anything like jump install, negedge, etc. either.  He may not be Sol/Ky/Sin easy but I can also think of way harder characters in this game, execution wise.  He barely even uses his chargers in most of his combos.  I will say that picking up Venom in Xrd was way easier than for me than +R May, Johnny, or Axl.  Or Xrd May/Axl for that matter.

 

Yes his charges not necessary for combos a majority of the time, but they are necessary for optimal pressure. Remember there's more to execution than combos.

Frankly I'm surprised. I mained Axl for at least a year before maining Venom, and I thought Axl's execution was WAY easier (and I think it's even easier in Xrd from what I see). May's AC execution was also easier for me (I didn't try her +R 6P Dolphin combos myself though, can't comment on those). Johnny...I didn't think his combo execution was too difficult from the things I've tried so far (knowing his exact combo theory to get what you want is quite difficult though).

 

I guess I'm just bad because Millia vs Venom feels awful :V

Always been a bad matchup for Venom. Speedy characters in general are problems for him, approaching on their own terms, not letting Venom dictate the neutral game easily. And when she knocks him down, he has nothing outside of the game's mechanics to save him, along with below-average health.

[Qu_Ane]

Excuse the noob post.

 

Out of all of my Elphelt fights the most interesting have been Axl, Zato, and Sin. Players use them very offensively (Axl feels closer to neutral game imo) but can get wrecked with a few reads. But the same goes vice versa. I don't know if it's like that for all El players though.

 

I haven't met a Leo with a stable game yet. They conquer the line of defense or they get shot in the face point blank. I remember hearing something about him having no/horrible dash game so they make a point of getting close really quickly(?)

[Justice7541]

 

Yes his charges not necessary for combos a majority of the time, but they are necessary for optimal pressure. Remember there's more to execution than combos.

Frankly I'm surprised. I mained Axl for at least a year before maining Venom, and I thought Axl's execution was WAY easier (and I think it's even easier in Xrd from what I see). May's AC execution was also easier for me (I didn't try her +R 6P Dolphin combos myself though, can't comment on those). Johnny...I didn't think his combo execution was too difficult from the things I've tried so far (knowing his exact combo theory to get what you want is quite difficult though).

 

Always been a bad matchup for Venom. Speedy characters in general are problems for him, approaching on their own terms, not letting Venom dictate the neutral game easily. And when she knocks him down, he has nothing outside of the game's mechanics to save him, along with below-average health.

 

Axl's shit tends to be more neutral execution for me.  I agree that his new combos are pretty easy (although TK Bomber is annoying to input) but getting hits you can actually confirm off of into anything decent (and actually confirming them) is a bit harder due to his weird gatlings and general lack of mixup.  Plus he runs slow and has 6 versions of all his buttons except S so getting that hit can be tough.  As for Johnny, it was mostly just the FRCs on everything screwing me over since I'm a scrub with zero link timing skills.

[TAI-X]

First, why are there so few Bedman players? I read that only 3% of the Japanese playerbase uses Bedman.

Unorthodox, slow, highly technical new character with an alleged (though pretty much unfounded at the moment) low tier ranking. I know one Anakaris player who's taken to him quite naturally, though.

[GKHiryu]

Unorthodox, slow, highly technical new character with an alleged (though pretty much unfounded at the moment) low tier ranking. I know one Anakaris player who's taken to him quite naturally, though.

How is it unfounded? The character has very poor defensive options that are only slightly offset by his high defense. His hurtbox is tall and wide and his moveset is lacking when compared to other characters. Bedman is a thoroughly thought out character. So much so that while he feels complete in training mode, actual versus battles quickly show you that he lacks that signature GG "crazy" factor. He's too fair imo.

He can zone you out, but gets no momentum out of that. He can combo you but does little damage. He can put an hour long pressure on you but he'll always have to chose between tight pressure without real mixups or hard to block stuff that you can just poke him out of any day of the week.

 

In my experience the only matchups where it's the opponent who has to work hard are Potemkin and Leo, with Slayer being rather even. Other than that in any matchup that you play you quickly get the feeling that the opponent can easily outplay you with a move o two that Bedman can't counter directly and you have to find ways to avoid it while BE himself has none of that.

[rubedo777]

How is it unfounded? The character has very poor defensive options that are only slightly offset by his high defense. His hurtbox is tall and wide and his moveset is lacking when compared to other characters. Bedman is a thoroughly thought out character. So much so that while he feels complete in training mode, actual versus battles quickly show you that he lacks that signature GG "crazy" factor. He's too fair imo.

He can zone you out, but gets no momentum out of that. He can combo you but does little damage. He can put an hour long pressure on you but he'll always have to chose between tight pressure without real mixups or hard to block stuff that you can just poke him out of any day of the week.

 

In my experience the only matchups where it's the opponent who has to work hard are Potemkin and Leo, with Slayer being rather even. Other than that in any matchup that you play you quickly get the feeling that the opponent can easily outplay you with a move o two that Bedman can't counter directly and you have to find ways to avoid it while BE himself has none of that.

 

I don't really agree with this...

 

But it's too late right now to write up a response. I'll just say that the best Bedman players in Japan, vs the best players of other characters, don't have this kind of struggle that you say. Doesn't mean they don't lose, but you can't expect them to always win. Probably the biggest struggle I've seen from Bedman players is against Ramlethals but there are still a number of videos out there of top Bedmans beating top Ramlethals.

[DaiAndOh]

Axl's shit tends to be more neutral execution for me.  I agree that his new combos are pretty easy (although TK Bomber is annoying to input) but getting hits you can actually confirm off of into anything decent (and actually confirming them) is a bit harder due to his weird gatlings and general lack of mixup.  Plus he runs slow and has 6 versions of all his buttons except S so getting that hit can be tough.  As for Johnny, it was mostly just the FRCs on everything screwing me over since I'm a scrub with zero link timing skills.

I don't think his gatlings are weird, they're more straightforward if anything, just divided basically into chain gatlings and close gatlings basically. Confirming off of chain gatlings is easier in +R and Xrd with new 5P > 6K > 2S gatling (and before anti-air confirms you really only had for the most part 5P > 2S, 6K > 2S, and 2S > 6K (1) > 2S.

6 versions of all his buttons? What? You mean 1 vs 2 hits in +R on chain normals? Which was something you picked (and from what I heard since I dropped Axl before +R came out, almost never did 1 hit buttons)

[Destin]

#R Johnny is extremely high ceiling at the highest level (in comparison to other gg characters), but to get him to American tournament level isn't that difficult.

[king of heart]

Ogawa had a long conversation on stream regarding tier discussion.

As the best GG player IMO he looks to things from a very simple point of view and a very easy way to under stand .

Q. What do you think about Sol ?

Ogawa: "I think that both Sol and Ky are good but they are definitely not top tier"

Q. Why is that?

Ogawa "they need to spend meter to be more threatening"

[SoWL]

Doesn't every character become more threatening with meter? I understand his point, but it could be worded better.

[rubedo777]

To be honest, I want to hear what are FAB's thoughts on the tiers. I consider him the best GG player and he's always fighting uphill battles and taking Potemkin to places most people can't, despite very bad matchups.

[Diveman]

Ogawa had a long conversation on stream regarding tier discussion.

As the best GG player IMO he looks to things from a very simple point of view and a very easy way to under stand .

Q. What do you think about Sol ?

Ogawa: "I think that both Sol and Ky are good but they are definitely not top tier"

Q. Why is that?

Ogawa "they need to spend meter to be more threatening"

 

is there a link or a translated version of this? I'm interested, thx

[king of heart]

I heard him while being there.

I guess you can find it in the Archive on twitch.

[redsilversnake]

Doesn't every character become more threatening with meter? I understand his point, but it could be worded better.

There's not really much nuance between "becomes more threatening with meter" and "needs meter to be threatening." It's worded well enough on a basic level, just lacking details about why he would think so.

[GKHiryu]

I don't really agree with this...

 

But it's too late right now to write up a response. I'll just say that the best Bedman players in Japan, vs the best players of other characters, don't have this kind of struggle that you say. Doesn't mean they don't lose, but you can't expect them to always win. Probably the biggest struggle I've seen from Bedman players is against Ramlethals but there are still a number of videos out there of top Bedmans beating top Ramlethals.

I hope you find time and elaborate a bit on that. I'm curious to read some counter arguments to Bedman's low-tier status, as nobody provided any yet. If you plan on writing that, I just want to point out that I never said you can't win with Bedman. I know you can. My point was that it always takes more work for BE than his opponent to win (aside from the mentioned matchups).

[rubedo777]

I hope you find time and elaborate a bit on that. I'm curious to read some counter arguments to Bedman's low-tier status, as nobody provided any yet. If you plan on writing that, I just want to point out that I never said you can't win with Bedman. I know you can. My point was that it always takes more work for BE than his opponent to win (aside from the mentioned matchups).

 

Well I'm not saying it from the perspective that I'm a top Bedman player or that I beat top players.

 

I'd say it takes more work just simply because he's a complex character and his style just happens to require more work...I don't think it means that he's more helpless than other characters...I mean he's gimped like some other characters are in the sense that he doesn't have a meterless reversal, but not that many do.