Rhiya

Actually, didn't notice your post yet. Yeah, that's pretty rough. I don't know if I'd call it outright impossible, since there are probably ways to practice specific situations/confirms into double butterfly to alleviate that issue (only do it from a max range *insert normal* on *insert character*), but it's definitely a pain in the ass. I don't know how much sympathy I have (getting meaty in Melty can be almost as shitty [more frames to hit within makes it easier for sure] sometimes, between the different wakeup speeds and the height I hit the knockdown normal changing things -- and I practice that), and I don't think it's definitively impossible, but it's probably more work than it's worth at the least. Execution is only one skill among many relevant to fighting games, and some skills are more valuable than execution. Good yomi is more valuable than execution, I'd say, but that doesn't mean having good execution doesn't pay off, and it certainly doesn't mean that getting better exec won't help you win matches. Sure, top tier exec player could lose to top tier yomi player pretty easily, but the yomi player might need several reads, whereas the exec player might only need one or two. Execution barriers -are- there to reward players, but there are other skill barriers that are also rewarding to pass in every competitive game, so I'm not sure why bringing up one of the other barriers (skill at reads) is a counterpoint. I'm also going to be cruel. You're insinuating that execution is intended to factor in the fundamental balance of the game, and then you're bringing up double butterfly, which is almost certainly an unintended glitch. That's questionable at best.

At no point have I said that execution doesn't matter. I have, however, said that execution is irrelevant to the balance of the game. What execution -is- relevant to is the relationship between players, as a player that makes good decisions and has good execution will win more often than one that makes equally good decisions but has poor execution. That's the gist of my outlook on execution, and I do think execution has a purpose: stratifying players is incredibly important for competitive games of any kind. That stratification is how you reward players for practice. You can even see me discussing this a while ago in a different thread: That being said, to respond directly to Dacid, the only thing that I feel can be considered a reasonable standard for what to allow and not allow, in terms of execution aids, is the game itself. This isn't controversial. It's the stance everyone in this topic has taken, so far as I have seen. However, I'm privileging the PS3 version of +R over the arcade version, since that's the one we all have in front of us (unless you're fortunate enough to be in Japan near an arcade). I can't find it reasonable to privilege the arcade version if most people playing the game in the Dustloop community will never come near it, and most of the new blood won't even know there are differences, or understand why this macro glitch is preventing them from using the macros built into the game. -That- seems to be controversial in this topic, but that is my opinion.

I'm not saying those barriers serve no purpose. They stratify players. They do separate the wheat from the chaff. I do, however, think the act of separating out players that can and players that can't isn't relevant to the balance of the game itself. I think it -is- relevant to the balance between players. That, however, isn't something that breaks the game. It changes the relations of the players, but does not change the game. I have repeatedly mentioned an exception for the Justice glitch. That's slopping programming from ArcSys on the negative edge on the missiles. I don't think that was intended, but unintended things do crop up. Abusing it the way you can with the macro may well be impossible without macros, though I do believe double missile, in and of itself, is possible without macros. If it is, arcade will probably have to deal with it sooner or later, and we'll see how that pans out. I want to go over this specific counter, though. Unless you're insinuating it's impossible to get this right with enough accuracy that you feel comfortable doing double butterfly every time, this argument doesn't make sense. The only thing stopping double butterfly from being input with high accuracy is the player. The risk does not come from the difficulty of the input; the risk comes from the player's inability to consistently perform that input. The player could conceivably fix this and get it right every time. If the player does it right every time, there is no risk. If there's no risk, there's no balance of the kind you mention. The only way your argument is sensible is if getting double butterfly consistently is impossible, but there's plenty of evidence from other games to suggest that getting frame perfect inputs with high accuracy is possible. As a result, I can't accept this argument. No one knew about the Justice glitch at the time this thread was made. The Justice glitch isn't the only reason being offered for a macro ban.

What I'm getting out of this thread is that a strangely large amount of top players think human error is an integral part of the game. I can't help but disagree on that. If I can't do something, it's my job to grind and fix that, no matter how hard it is. Difficulty in timing or execution isn't a balancing factor, or something the devs can use to balance; it's just extra hurdles to separate out people who can and can't perform those tricks. It's a way for one player to show they've spent more time, or put more effort into the game. It's not something that breaks the gameplay balance, because the ultimate balance is always based on the top level of play anyways, where people can do that shit. (Yes, as I said, even Woshige drops combos -- but if Millia's combos on Jam are really hard, say, that doesn't suddenly make the matchup worse, or affect the matchup rating.) So, this glitch shouldn't affect the actual balance of the game (barring Justice shit). It does affect the hurdles I mentioned earlier. I don't see that as a problem. Secondarily, I want to remind everyone what this glitch does (on everyone other than Justice, anyways): you can now perform a special by inputting a motion alone, instead of inputting a motion and pressing a button. That, to me, does not sound like a big deal. It removes hurdles and lowers the execution barrier, but nothing changes about the game balance.

Thinking less effort is bad is called entitlement. You're isolating your community and turning away new blood like that. You're just going to look like a bunch of old fogeys screaming at these kids that they should learn to do something the hard way, based on some bizarre ideal they have no reason to accept. This situation is oddly analogous to what I tell people about playing on stick. If you want to go to JP, live the dream, and play in an arcade, you've gotta learn stick. But if you're not worried about that, there's no compelling reason to switch off pad if you're doing fine with it. In this case, if you want to go play in arcades, you should learn to do it the hard way, but if you don't plan on doing that, you can save yourself some trouble, and just learn with the macro. There's actually no less commitment, just less chance of error. It's lowering the execution barrier to time things. It's already the case that, say, if you hit a button too early in blockstun, nothing happens. (I tested this, just for the sake of understanding the ramifications of this glitch.) If you mash DP H over and over, there's actually less chance of getting hit than you might think. Additionally, the special still comes out whenever you finish your input, as Ama has repeatedly pointed out; you still have to time it. And, furthermore, if the motion makes you stop blocking, you've still got to stop blocking to do the input, so if you accidentally start inputting the DP too late (while you're no longer in the blockstun of the last move), you'll still just get hit when your opponent continues their blockstring. Really, what I get out of this thread is that nobody here actually wants to see this glitch banned because they think it breaks the game in the sense that the game will become unplayable, outside of the Justice glitch (which is still possible without the macro). I see almost every post complaining that people can now do things easier, that this simplicity is offensive, and anything that makes their precious game easier should be banned. I love GG, but for christsakes, just deal with it. Running the game through a grinder and exploiting everything there is just part of playing to win. New Millias being able to TK Bad Moon easily isn't going to wreck your game. The major thing that separates good players and bad players is still decisions. Keep your senses of superiority alive by beating scrubs into the ground instead of spending days in training. Also, because Sirlin is always appropriate:

I would like to repeat: if you think making it so that people can more consistently do things that they already can do is broken, the game was broken in the first place. About the only thing banworthy so far is the Justice glitch, and that's because it seems like you can get more missiles on the screen than performing the glitch without the macro. I don't know if that's actually been confirmed or not yet, though.

ArcSys felt the patch was taking too long and just released it, so they didn't put in lobbies, iirc.

No two people use abare in the same way in the English community. >_>

You'll faultless.

One day isn't enough to see if there's literally no options against it. I'm not saying it's promising, but you need to exhaust all possibilities of a counter.

Netplay against randoms will basically be a joke until they patch Justice/the macro glitch, so it's kind of in their interest.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone actually reported to this to ASW? >_> Best resolution is just that they patch it out.

Hitboxes now have input cleaners that make that not happen, as mentioned earlier. Also. Best post in the topic, bar none.

Second, definitely. Playing someone you enjoy>>>>>>>>>>>>playing someone you don't.

You're inputting it completely differently by using a pad instead of an arcade stick, and in making inputs that way, you're doing something you can't do on a cab. If using a pad is okay since the results are equivalent, using a macro should be fine, since the results are equivalent. Contrary to popular belief, pressing three buttons on a stick is significantly easier than doing the same thing on pad, which is why macros exist.

To everyone talking about banning the glitch in any way other than an outright ban on macros: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

I didn't say netplay was useless, by any means. You can get lots of valuable EXP playing online, especially if the game has good netcode, or some way of masking the lag (advance input). It's not the same as offline, though, and you need to know that. If you play nothing but netplay with 3 delay frames and get meaties every time, when you switch to offline, your meaty will be 3f too early you'll get smacked in the face unless you compensate. The game was made to be played with no delay frames past the limits of the hardware. That's a cold, hard fact. In netplay, you're playing something infinitely close to the same game, but it can and will diverge at critical points. Netplay is amazing, don't get me wrong -- but it's not a substitute for offline play. I'm not going to tell you those sorts of things at all. Netplay is amazingly useful, and you can get better on netplay, but you just need to know it's a slightly different game offline. Props for hitting up EVO, btw.

You can see it if you watch them, yeah, but no one's going to take the time to hover over some random player's stick in pools to make sure that second missile on the screen wasn't macro'd, and it's going to be a hell of a lot harder for other characters people are worried about, like Baiken (especially since the Baiken player could be on pad and doing the trick without the obvious tell of hitting not-the-usual-button-of-the-large-buttons-on-his-stick). Basically, it'd too much of a pain in the TO's ass to ban doing X with the macro because you have to police everyone's matches and basically have someone watching a player's stick and the screen at all times. It's theoretically feasible, but utterly impractical. Also, you can't just ask them to show if they can do it after the fact. If you're banning the use of the macro to fire two missiles, or whatever ban you make, it doesn't matter if you -can- do it the other way. What matters is if you -did-.

You say this like SF players don't regularly perform 1f timings, or like that Bridget player mentioned earlier didn't get the very similar Bridget glitch down. Practice the input + tapping your fingers on the button like you're playing a repeated note on a piano, and you'd get it eventually. Banning multiple missiles is banning something that -does- actually work in arcade, as Ama showed.

You're acting like 1f consecutive button hits are impossible. Ama just paused the game because he couldn't do them on his pad.

What if you only use the macro to perform the glitch in a way you could without the macro?

It is an issue, for the reasons discussed. Short of literally watching someone's hands, you won't see if someone's doing the glitch with Baiken, using it to get perfect TK bad moons, etc.

Bans have to be discrete and enforceable. "Don't map macros" is a lot easier to enforce than "don't perform this Justice glitch" or "don't use the macro to guard cancel with Baiken." "As close as possible" is hard to pin down, though, and we repeatedly play in ways that don't emulate the arcade experience (console only characters being the most obvious difference, among the others discussed). I'd rather we just acknowledge console isn't an arcade and move on, especially when the devs themselves make that acknowledgement in putting things like macros, story mode, etc. into the game.

Slayer links aren't that bad. You'll be fine. You sound like you should be hooked on the character after one Dead on Time, though

It's more the salt over being promised an update this simple and still not having it. 360 players should be holding riots outside ASW HQ by now.