Volpe-de-Glacio

I'm talking reads; I have to rely on them, why doesn't everyone else? Say you know your opponent's going to backdash. You use 2C (I'm in the lab now, that's what I was actually talking about) Your opponent is dragged to you(whilst taking 1.2k), and you can start a block string. Guess what that blockstring nets you? An inescapable (without expending resources) 2.6k-3k. That's freaking 3.8k-4.2k off of a good read with 0-25 meter. Or you could do a legitimate combo, for all I know 2C leads into bigger damage in itself.

It comes out in Japanese arcades in a week or so, I think. No news on that, and with the lukewarm reception Melty Blood received we can only really cross our fingers. You're forgetting his persona swipe > backdash, his persona anti air grab > jump aways (if it's fast enough, i'm not sure) And why does nobody care that he has a command grab set-up that you can only avoid by spending 50 meter or bursting, and even with 50 meter he still has options to stuff Elizabeth? He gets an assured 2.6k-3k JUST BECAUSE YOU BLOCKED. His oki completely denies blocking on wake-up! WTF?

1500-2000 is massive damage for Elizabeth, and I can play the match-up right all day, but the instant I let him knock me down once it becomes an impossible guessing game. With so many valid options Kanji is damn near impossible to read. The whole point of that was that with his oki, it's an insane struggle to even contemplate escaping the corner. I play keepaway all day, but he acts like a sponge and absorbs damage til he gets an opportunity. Once he has momentum, he's hard to stop. The only reason I can really beat Kanji now is because they're super predictable for the most part. How can you play the match up right when you aren't allowed to block against him, he has an option select that lets him block AND punish dps, and in a decent player's hands with meter can kill my character the instant he gets in on her? Inevitably I have to get close to him; I can't combo unless he decides to be free to agi. Elizabeth's main strength is her offensive with Thanatos and her high damage output, coupled with her zoning capabilities for breathing room. Except Kanji has multiple answers for Elizabeth's reversal, and I haven't tested it but the only answer to his 100% successful command grab is probably counter assault or bursting. And he's probably got an option for Liz's counter assault. Either way, we've already laid out how difficult it is to even begin to play the match up correctly. The amount of options he has is staggering in comparison to anyone he puts on defense. So basically you're telling me to spam Maziodyne in different patterns and PRAY PRAY PRAY that he doesn't jump it, because once he does it's pretty much game.

Who'd you play? Also, wanna get some matches in?

Not to mention it still doesn't explain how that makes Kanji work like other grapplers. Other grapplers typically put you in a 50/50 situation on wake-up. Kanji's game is more like rock-paper-scissors-shotgun-jesus.

It gets even dumber with Liz's command grab. I edited about options on my post, but yours is a lot clearer lol. I also forgot about his dp. Say I wake up command grab. He can either DP, or his slower command grab can beat it out. Say I wake up roll. He can either quick command grab or dp to beat it. Now I'm paralyzed or taking massive damage and we're back to Kanji's oki again. (Unless his grab+combo leaves you at neutral, I can't remember)

Except other grapplers have answers to them and don't have a 100% successful command grab the instant they get in a block string. Other grapplers don't narrow your wake-up options to reversal or die. Even then, with Liz's reversal it's a 50/50. He could decide to use his slow start-up command grab and punish. And yeah, I get that 50/50's are a grappler staple. The problem is it's a 50/50 after you've factored in the possibility that your opponent can press buttons on your wake-up for either a free combo or a free command grab. So then when you and your opponent both know each other, it gets convoluted. Will I be able to punish his oki with a reversal? Will he bait my reversal with a slow command grab? Will I be able to disrespect his bait with a roll? Will he stop my roll with a quick command grab? If I jump to avoid his quick command grab, he can get a free combo if he decides to go with regular oki. If I block his regular oki, he gets a free command grab. It's freaking ridiculous, and I can't recall a grappler who's ever worked like that. edit 2: I forgot super jump as an answer. Can his Persona anti air grab reject a super jump? Either way, the sheer amount of options on wake-up is getting silly. Watching more vids, I'm seeing more blocking on non-Liz matches, yeah. But like you said, her counter assault is ridiculously easy to bait and punish. Watching more vids, I'm seeing they actually respect blockstrings on netplay. In tournament vids, they might block one or two hits and then start pressing buttons again, and usually only if they really have to block. This is obviously generalizing as I haven't looked for it in a ton of vids yet, but the only person I've seen respect a blockstring mid-tournament so far is a Kanji player.

But there's a disturbing lack of block strings, that's my point. In most of the vids I've seen they're just pressing buttons at neutral and getting hit-confirms. I only see them blocking shit on wake-up or on reaction to supers or something.

I don't like how the answer to Kanji is don't let him ever knock you down ever and don't let him make you block ever.

I noticed something weird. I've heard Japanese players were mashier than we are, and looking at Persona videos, you'll rarely see them blocking. All the BB vids I've seen instantly flew out of my head and I assumed they just didn't like blocking pressure. But now that I'm watching this UNiB tournament, they're back to blocking normally. . . They blocked in BB, they block in UNiB, they block in GG. . . What's up with P4U?

Also, Under Night In-Birth had a tourney at SBO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUGLWGH7VPI&feature=player_embedded

'Sup, Yosuke? Heard you thought you were tight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcT4OXrNcWc&feature=plcp

Not exactly sure how the netplay hosting works but I know that whenever I'm in the room with a bunch of people fighting someone, even if I have a great connection with my opponent it lags. Same reason I couldn't complete my combos on Star last night even though I fight him easily all the time. And on the topic of lag. . . Funny how this Yosuke I had three bars with miraculously started lagging the moment I air counter threw him into a corner combo.

Yeah. . . I was a little discouraged from the start. A large chunk of the people who entered were talking about how P4A was their first fighter and they knew they'd be free. Competition seemed a little meh.

I didn't even get to enter. I wanted to wait til release day to make sure I had a copy before I entered a tourney. Little did I know they stopped taking sign-ups THAT day.

I'm talking more about movement. Some characters with specials that move them and whatnot seem to be drastically slowed by Personas like Izanagi, but tear through Personas like Thanatos with ease. As for the forums, I've been planning on it since the tournament. I just want to sharpen my game with all the information available before hitting up other players to ask for help. Which is why I'm still giving this game the benefit of the doubt, and my misgivings are more gut feeling than true problems with the game.

I wouldn't mind this at all if I wasn't led to believe that this game was going to have excellent balance (my fault, I know, but still). I would be entirely okay with this if random things didn't entirely negate Elizabeth's strengths. Her pressure with Thanatos is completely crushed by certain moves, meaning she can't gain any sort of momentum, and has to rely solely on good reads and the opponent making mistakes on their own. (And this is usually after the opponent's gained momentum and she's struggled to return to neutral after likely taking a good chunk of damage). Yes, I get that the point of fighters is punishing mistakes, but that's usually aided by the ability of your character to make your opponent more likely to make those blunders. You can't really answer someone else's answer to your entire character. A lot of times I'm reading my opponent all day and I know exactly what they're going to do; there's simply no way to deal with their tactics. even when they don't have tools to negate Elizabeth's pressure, half of her mix-up is easily reactable. One half of her mix-up is predicting the opponent's movements because the 2C frame-trap is built in, and the other is PRAYING that they just sit their and eat her extremely obvious 5D. But nobody is supposed to be low tier in this game. I don't want answers to Elizabeth's weaknesses; I want answers period. If I know what my opponent is going to do, I should be able to put a stop to it, not sit there like a deer caught in the headlights of a semi. These goals would be a lot more reachable if it was even remotely possible to condition people. A good chunk of my opponents simply do things because their character allows it, and it's impossible to read or condition them. I know I'm being vague, but that's because I haven't fully grasped this game yet, which is why I refuse to give up. I've just got this unsettling feeling that things are skewed in a way that they shouldn't be, and it gets stronger with every player I face.

It's not about being on top; it's about being on top because of one extremely good tool, instead of a diverse set of valid tools that when used properly form a great character.

Fuck tier lists. The only reason Mitsuru is considered so good is because of coup droit, and I'm sure there are characters with answers for that. That's also the only reason Mitsuru vs. Elizabeth is 7-3. I found out Star was so fun to fight because it's pure mindgames and reads when he tries to engage in thought out pressure and shit. A real Mitsuru/Elizabeth match is more like coup droit the fuck out of everything because it stops practically anything Elizabeth can do. How can you tell me with a straight face that everybody is equally viable when some match-ups are defined by a single skill? Yosuke vs. Elizabeth? Chill in the air, throw kunai, wait for them to be oh so stupid enough to throw anything out in a desperate attempt to touch you, turn-airdash exploit counter-hit punish for damage from damn near anywhere on the screen. Yukiko vs. Liz? Get her into optimal range and crush her with unblockable setups(why is Yukiko bad again?). Once you've got oki, it's painfully easy to lock her into optimal range. Her heal is also really weird for Elizabeth to punish. Either I'm missing something or this match-up is nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be. It's really momentum based, and she seems to have a much easier time keeping hers. Don't get me wrong, though; I'm not attributing any of this as bullshit. Yukikos have to work hard for this shit, and I think there's still a few options I've yet to try that'll help me negate these problems. Teddie. . . Fuck Teddie. Fish for random hit-confirms and out zone her with an unpunishable baseball bat. Narukami? Fuck the sandwhich, just stand behind Izanagi all day and go for safe pressure. For some reason when people punish me, their attacks break through Thanatos entirely and reach Liz(Effectively ignoring the point of her playstyle). With Narukami Izanagi is like a fucking brick wall. Other complaints I've heard are how safe his overhead is and easily canceled his dp is. I don't understand how Mitsuru's the god of this game when Narukami can do whatever the fuck he damn well pleases with his ACTUAL anti-air dp + free, obfuscated mix-up under Ziodyne. Kanji? I don't really have problems with Kanji, but I am Elizabeth. I don't play rushdown so my input probably isn't valid, but he seems to be one of the characters with the least amount of stupid shenanigans, surprisingly. Aegis doesn't bother me. She's really good, but she seems more like she has to work for it. Akihiko is actually really fun to fight, because we're always playing mindgames. Will he tick throw here? Unblockable? AoA? Sweep? Bait a dp with Caesar? He's what reminds me of how fun this game is. Chie? Godlike mix-up for days. I think my problem with her is just netplay, though. Shit's impossible to react to online, and gets stupid frustrating. Labrys doesn't bug me as much since I'm Elizabeth, but from what I'm hearing from rush down players she's apparently got better mash than Platinum. Shadow Labrys is legit, just extremely frustrating to deal with. Her moves seem a bit too ambiguous. Haven't really run into any Naotos, so I can't make any statements there. Maybe I'm just bitching and I haven't seen the whole picture yet. I know my Elizabeth needs work, but it seems the more I delve into this game, the more tactics and thought-out game-play succumb to pure randomness or basic tactics from better characters. I'm not just talking about that random factor where scrub gameplay beats out better players through luck. I'm talking about decent players turning their brains off and being rewarded for it because their characters do half the work for them. I'm doing my damnedest not to give up on this game, but it seems intent on dashing my hopes. I want to love this game so bad, and it fucking teases me with beautiful promise whenever I fight that one player that keeps me from dropping it. http://www.reddit.com/r/Fighters/comments/yokx6/oct_13t14_2250_bonus_king_of_bling_tournament/ I put the King of Bling info up on the FGC subreddit. If you've got an account, go upvote the thread. If not and you've got time to spare, go make an account and upvote the thread. More votes = people being more likely to see it.

I'm not saying she's not good, it's just she doesn't make me sweat like Narukamis and Chies. If you're easy to read, that's pretty much a death sentence when you're fighting a good Liz. As for her zoning capabilities I see her as more middle-of-the-road. It's more of a "I want you blocking while Orgia recharges" or a Persona breaking tool from what I can tell. It also makes her twice as hard to pressure with Thanatos, cuz she can wake up 2b practically anything I throw at her. Sometimes even maziodyne, due to the speed of her bullets. Granted, my analytical skills aren't the best. Take these scrub impressions with a hefty grain of salt.

Ayashii's pretty good, but I dunno. I get the feeling that once you get a feel for her, her stiff playstyle will make her really easy to read. Her mix-up is dangerous but no more so than Narukami/Chie. In fact, Chie's is scarier and Narukami's more frustrating imo. I actually feel confident while blocking Aegis for some reason, even though she gets huge damage from practically any mistake.

Is this separate from MTN? I thought we were doing it the 29th.

I figured that was the whole point of tier lists in the first place. High tier characters are supposed to have a deadly range of tools to use on their opponent, and the more options they have in any given situation the harder they'll be to read. Or something.

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/8711/article/persona-4-arena-controller-decals-released-for-every-character/ P4U decals. Dunno if there's anything for 360 players.

Gotta love Brosuke. "Oh, you threw out a move to make me respect the space in front of you? Better turn-airdash and punish you from full screen."