Myoro

Well leis was the only thing that changed, so if we can 4D them in that same height and distance from the corner, this should still be possible. Of course that probably means we'll have to do some kind of 6D>41236B shenanigan or go from 6C into 41236B. I'd prefer if we came up with a solution besides those two though, because the first would ramp up IG cost and the second would screw the follow-up. Is it possible to employ some combination of 2B>5B>6B>4D, 5B>5C>6B>4D, 5B>5C>2C>4D, or 5B>6B>5C>4D to get a similar height?

It's basically Start yourself in one corner of the stage and they opponent on the complete opposite side of the screen. Go overdrive. Throw ball, Dash>[6C>5D~B>]xN until you reach other corner of stage. use 214214C>ball hits>214214C>profit. It's tight but that's what you do. Le'mmie impart my limited Tao knowledge. Lesse. pressure strings. There's whatever into 2D~B>falling j.B/j.C for a crossup. If that's blocked you can land>2A/2B, jump>j.2B, 8D~B>falling j.B/j.C. 5D~C is plus on block and is used a lot to recycle pressure with a follow-up falling air normal, but if you expect an anti-air you can 8D~B, bait with a jump, backdash j.4D, or use 236236D' invuln if their head invuln is short enough to be bypassed. You can cancel pretty much any non drive normal into 214D to cross an opponent up, do a quick overhead, or make your stuff safe. 5D~A is -2 on block but a lot of characters will have to respect you anyway while you continue into 665B or 2A. 236A makes your stuff safe too, and can also go into 5D~A/C if you so feel. If your back is to the corner you can [2]8D~B safely in a blockstring after 2C to cross them up in pressure. Getting in with Tao is as easy as exploiting her high movement potential to dart through dead zones in your opponent's areas of attack. If you know there's a spot in their airspace where they can't safely mount an assault on you, be there at all times. Take for instance the area between Nu's 6D and 2D or the area between Hazama's 4D and 6D. those are good points of entry. Get used to stuff like IADing then jumping over an anti air because that's another way exclusive to Tao. Things like her wall cling and her j.4D can keep the opponent guessing where you are gonna be, which is good. As Tao, if you're predictable, you're predicta-dead. Once you're in you have way more ways to bait the ways your opponent can end your pressure, than your opponent has ways to end your pressure. It's kinda like a game of chicken where the odds are stacked in your favor, but if you lose you'll take the loss harder than they will. Your frame traps are 5B>2C, 2B>2C, 236A/C~B and others I'm sure.

Oh derp, wrong game. Nevermind me.

I was always told as an aspiring Relius that Makoto was a bad match-up for us! O_o (I mean I can see how that could have changed with Relius getting better and developing new tech, while Makoto gets nerfed, but I didn't think it changed THAT much.) If it matters to anyone I know that Makoto's dash is the best in the game for getting between the casting time on Relius' main pokes (5B for close and 214A for far) Her jab is super quick and can desummon Ignis then follow up with a 6A for a counterhit punish during his more common pressure strings involving 3C>6D+jump if you IB the 3C. (That may have changed with CP's nerf to instant blocking.) She's also one of the few I've seen be able to straight up dash through Tus. I know Space parry still trashes Lyra oki, and astroid vision mix-up is still good against our slower jabs.

So is it still Izayoi gameplay discussion if I want to know from you all how to fight Izayoi? Knowledge of when to respect her, and when and how to disrespect her would be super valuable to me! I play Relius, who on paper has the advantages, but as a rarer character Izayoi seems to hold all the cards when I fight her. Can someone tell me the obvious holes in her blockstrings that I can fit a 32 frame invincable dodge, a 6 frame jab, a frame 7 invulnerable anti air, and a super obvious low reaching DP into? Heck, any weaknesses I can exploit aside from the obvious, "don't let her get stocks" would be nice. Thanks for any help! ^_^ (I figure this could be just as appropriate on the Rel MU threads, but no one there knows as much about Izayoi as you all might.)

It's probably closer to 1~10 frames to catch the attack and 10~15 frames of vulnerability. DP's are supposed to be very unsafe if predicted (Or else how broken would an invincible move that you could throw out at any time be?) Ether way it's easy to time, just throw it out when you're certain the enemy will attack, or when the opponent is already attacking, and don't let yourself get called out or tricked.

Mac I know you play Haku-men, but share with me the feeling of being Relius for this journey through one of life's great joys. You are playing a masked pervert with a flying robot wife. A loli vampire throws her frog at you and uses airbending to help her minion on its way. You are smiling to yourself. You then spring forth with all the speed of a particularly fast cheetah who is also on performance enhancing drugs. You are using 3C to karate chop the evil frog into oblivion with your robo hands. You are jump canceling the 3C cuz you can do that on hit and instant air dashing at the one who spawned the demon frog. You are j.B-ing the loli Vampire for a 4500 damage corner combo. You are the world's happiest masked pervert.

Well the mirror thing is the "Catch" part of it. "Catch" moves only act after they come into contact with another move, then their "Attack" part happens. It does nothing for 7 frames, but is invincible all the while then does an attack for 3 frames then one for 10 frames.

That sounds fantastic n' all but it uses 2000 IG before the de-summon. My 5B>3C>236C~214A>5C(2)>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C>5D does 4011 damage and only takes 1000 gauge (and judging from what you're saying it might be easier too.) I don't know which would get Ignis regen quicker though, the vid's which has a 5B>2C>6C>22A's worth in time to get the regen started, or mine which shaves 1000 of the initial cost. Someone cool should do a comparison study. I think using ancient Myoro magiks I could boost both the damage and the amount of Ignis regen time of the vid's combo by a little. For starters a crush trigger>3C in place of the 22A would do wonders for both, adding only about 300ish damage, but also 30+frames of sweet sweet regen followed by a 3C summoning opportunity.

A+B is all out attack right? that thing where you overhead the opponent then bum rush them? That's no DP, although it has guardpoint from 15th to 23rd frames. B+D is the universal DP option. Chie's is that Mirror that once hit will be followed up by kicks. Here's her frame data: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chie_Frame_Data_(P4Arena) Look in the Invuln column. Besides power charge anything that has invincibility on frames 1~whatever is a DP. I misunderstood your second question, but yeah he prolly left out the j Well when you're going for a tick throw, you generally can't react to a jab actually hitting the opponent, so you'll do the tick throw anyway. If you can react and change a tick throw to a combo in the time a single jab can give you, then more power to ya.

Double checked, stabbing people is illegal, and is generally frowned upon. Too bad about that Mac. Problem is J.XD is beaten by j.A too, and then her j.B/j.2C can be canceled into to beat all of our other options. Maybe this is what j.214B, that air to air we never use, is for??? I need to do some soul searching in the lab. =_= Yeah, not letting her do a darned thing sounds like the easiest solution, but that's been what we've been doing day one. So far the basic game-plan for Relius versus Kokonoe is "Lock them down so hard they just put down the controller, and maybe cry a little." Problem is we can only start pressure if we play a better neutral than Kokonoe on the outset. Even then, Relius works on a timer, so if Ignis goes, that plan dissolves and then we're dead. For Relius to run a game completely on pressure we have to; first beat Koko's neutral with our own, keep Koko locked down, then get past her defense while maintaining enough Ignis juice to get 50% gauge, corner carry, and corner oki, then manage to desummon ignis while she's in a corner combo after a successful corner oki, all the while predicting bursts, counter assaults, teleports, and her DP fire ball perfectly. To win like that requires an incredible amount of precision, skill, and good fortune. One mistake and you're dead, or you're in a blockstring or at neutral, watching as all your hard work comes crashing down, wishing you were dead. I think all we need is something to fall back on that isn't "Drop Relius for Kokonoe." I will endevor to find that something.

I numbered what I could answer. 1. DP refers to "Dragon Punch" motions, which is 623+button. The motion itself doesn't exist in persona games but what it's typically associated with does. In fighting games where DP motions exist, the moves that use DP motions are commonly invincible on start-up until the end of the move's active frames. This means that the move is invincible from the very second you press the button to execute it. DPs are also called "reversals" because they are commonly used to throw the opponent off of them. Say you do a neutral recovery (they press a button after they are knocked down without pressing a direction) you are invincible until they touch the ground. Say someone tries to attack you while you are recovering this way. Even though you are inside the opponent's move's hitbox and active frames you can then use a DP right as you touch the ground and continue your invincibility into your DP's invincability and throw the opponent off of you. An example of DPs in Persona 4 Arena would all furious action moves (like that move where Yu rises up in the air and his sword is electricuted, or Kanji's move where he electrocutes himself.) and some 50% gauge skills also qualify too. 2. "j" stands for "jumping" so j.C would be your jumping C normal. j.BB would be you in the air tapping the "B" button twice. 3. A Tick Throw is when you go up to the opponent, jab them, and then throw them. If it works right the opponent will mistake the jab for a throw attempt, then try to throw break it (but they end up doing nothing because they're in blockstun), then you throw them after the jab and they can't break it because they tried to reject the throw too early. You can't do a tick throw on counter hit 5A because they will be in hitstun and you cant throw while the opponent is getting hit by a move. On a normal hit 5A the tick throw will still work because they'll recover in time to be thrown.

Stabbing them is certainly out of the box... Might be worth a shot... What if they DP IRL?

I'd trade my kingdom for a palette where Relius is Ansem and Ignis is that Heartless that comes out of his back JJBA style.

I remember a time in the not to distant past when I jumped over Koko's 2C only to get 6A'd despite the whiff. I think Sony should make controllers with straps the way Nintendo did with the Wiimote, because I almost threw my controller through the T.V. The combination of rising j.A and 6A make approaching a non-blocking Koko from the air kind of a non-option don't they? Anyone got some non-obvious solutions?

I can see how that'd be the case. I wouldn't want to add to your list experiences with known peeves ether! How about we try after I get that new shnazzy connection? ^_^ PS: Mac, you're the greatest!

Oof, outright rejected. I haven't had a single lag match as of late, even with Hyderu who is from Mexico or something. But, I'm getting a better internet connection soon, so that 0bar thing may be a non issue in the coming weeks. The Relius thing can't be helped though, I have barely put any time into my subs, so it'd be like fighting a particularly weak gnat. Want to test our connection to see if there's lag before closing the door on a match? If there is lag I'll just sandbag for you or you can D/C or have me D/C or whatever.

So does that make my growing desire to fight your Rachel some latent form of masochism? (Huh I'm discovering new things about myself everyday!) But in all seriousness PM me when you want to play, I'm dying to have a go with the mighty, THE INFAMOUS, THE ALL POWERFUL Errol.

Thing is, there's all sorts of things that factor into combos being specific. Their hit box could be too big, or have a random protrusion that make them go headlong into the beginning active frames of a move when you want them to be hit on the later active frames. (This was the issue with one of the combos I created yesterday.) Some of Tao's combos work fine on Carl but not so well on Noel or Rachel. Relius' 5B>6B doesn't work on Valk unless there is a microdash directly before. I'm sure there are a billion examples of things that just don't work on characters you wouldn't suspect, so testing a combo on everyone is very important if you want to publish it.

I mean it's not a huge problem per se, I'd just rather have combos I invent work well on everyone. That's what a peeve is to me, a little irritant.

Pet peeve, character specific hurtboxes. Nothin' ruins a day in the lab quite like inventing an awesome new combo, testing it on 25 members and it's impossible on the 26th.

Finished testing. That took FOREVER!!! They all work in all situations, sans the ones mentioned in the little notes below. #1. (a)4D>5C>neutral jump>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>5C>2C>236C>3C [3403 DMG/+24HT/-1000IG] * #2. (a)4D>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>6B>TKj.236C>3C [3164DMG/+22HT/-1000IG] * #3. (a) 41236B>5C(2)>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3527DMG/+25HT/IG free] * #4. (a) 41236B>5C(2)>forward jump>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>3C [4123DMG/+2HT/IG free] * #5. (a) 41236B>5B>5C(2)>j.B>delay>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3507DMG/+25HT/IG free] * #6. (a) 41236B>5B>6B>TKj.236C>665C(2)>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>3C [3806DMG/+/-0HT/IG free] * #7. (back to corner) 4B+C>41236B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3134DMG/+22HT/IG free] * #8. (g) 5B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C [3373DMG/+24HT/IG free] * Issues landing 3C ender on spinning hitboxes: Mu, Relius, Hazama/Terumi, Haku, Kagura, Valk. ^The combos will still be good for Oki and such, but you'll miss out on the Damage/HT gain of a 3C ender after a 236C or j.236C. Doesn't mean it's impossible, just that I couldn't seem to do it every time without fail. Guh. So you can actually do a jump and then TKj.236C because the input is really lax. I mention this because sometimes 7 TKj.236C or 9 TKj.236C is used to space these combos better. If you're having trouble having 5B connect after 236C, try 9 TKj.236C, if you're having trouble getting 236C to not go offscreen, try 7 TKj.236C. I find that 9 TKj.236C>3C makes the 3C connect better. I vote that if #1 is included it be officially written as : "4D>5C>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>5C>2C>236C [3308DMG/+23HT/-1000IG] because 2C does not interact with everyones Hitbox allowing for 236C to miss some actives the same way it does with; Mu's, Tao's, Arakune's, Nu's, and Jin's No combos need to be changed to match #1 because it's the only one that I was silly enough to include 41236B>5C>2C>236C>3C in. Another note about #1 is that you have to delay the 236C barely to hit Ragna, Tager, Tsubaki, and Carl, It might mean the 3C link can work if timed right. #4 whiffs on Makoto Platinum and Carl on the second 2C I think this can be fixed by a microdash 5B on ether of the 5Bs before it, but I can't do it to save my life. (All the riches in Scottland to the gent who can.) For Hazama/Terumi #3-5 are tight as heck starting out. #3 and you can to change the j.C before the j.236C to a j.B or else the 5B following the j.236C will be tight if not impossible. For #4 and #5 you can change the 5C(2) into a 5C(1) to help

Which combo are you both talking about WakeCupsOfCoffee? I don't ever remember doing a combo that was downright iMpossible on Hazama. (And the only chara specific combo I've ever posted her is 5B>6B>5C(1)>2C>6C>41236B>5B>5C>sj>j.B>j.C>j.236C~j.214B>airdash. And that one is only faulty on Carl and Amane (Ya just gotta switch the 5C(1) to 5A to fix it too.)

Not done yet! I numbered the tested combos for convenience. #1. (a)4D>5C>neutral jump>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>5C>2C>236C>3C [3403 DMG/+24HT/-1000IG] * #2. (a)4D>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>6B>TKj.236C>3C [3164DMG/+22HT/-1000IG] * #3. (a) 41236B>5C(2)>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3527DMG/+25HT/IG free] * #4. (a) 41236B>5C(2)>forward jump>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>3C [4123DMG/+2HT/IG free] * #5. (a) 41236B>5B>5C(2)>j.B>delay>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3507DMG/+25HT/IG free] * #6. (a) 41236B>5B>6B>TKj.236C>665C(2)>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>3C [3806DMG/+/-0HT/IG free] * #7. (back to corner) 4B+C>41236B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3134DMG/+22HT/IG free] * #8. (g) 5B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C [3373DMG/+24HT/IG free] * Issues landing 3C ender on spinning hitboxes: Mu, Relius, Hazama/Terumi, Haku, Kagura, ^The combos will still be good for Oki and such, but you'll miss out on the Damage/HT gain of a 3C ender after a 236C or j.236C. Doesn't mean it's impossible, just that I couldn't seem to do it every time without fail. Guh. So you can actually do a jump and then TKj.236C because the input is really lax. I mention this because sometimes 7 TKj.236C or 9 TKj.236C is used to space these combos better. If you're having trouble having 5B connect after 236C, try 9 TKj.236C, if you're having trouble getting 236C to not go offscreen, try 7 TKj.236C. I find that 9 TKj.236C>3C makes the 3C connect better. Checklist so far (Tested the combos on all these dudebros): Mu, Relius, Makoto, Tao, Hazama/Terumi, Haku, Kagura, Bullet, Ragna, Litchi. Will continue tomorrow. I vote that if #1 is included it be officially written as : "4D>5C>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>5C>2C>236C [3308DMG/+23HT/-1000IG] because 2C does not interact with everyones Hitbox allowing for 236C to miss some actives the same way it does with; Mu's, Tao's, and Jin's No combos need to be changed to match #1 because it's the only one that I was silly enough to include 41236B>5C>2C>236C>3C in. Another note about #1 is that you have to delay the 236C barely to hit Ragna #4 whiffs on Makoto on the second 2C (Curse her air hitbox, I'll be damned if boxers aren't using that stance IRL to shrink their air hitboxes.) I think this can be fixed by a microdash 5B on ether of the 5Bs before it, but I can't do it to save my life. (All the science collaboration points in the world to the gent who can.) For Hazama/Terumi #3-5 are tight as heck starting out. #3 and you can to change the j.C before the j.236C to a j.B or else the 5B following the j.236C will be tight if not impossible. For #4 and #5 you can change the 5C(2) into a 5C(1) to help

Then it's prolly just me being bad lol. I can't connect this for the life of me. In other news I got Back to corner 4B+C>41236B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3134DMG/+22HT/IG free] to work on jin, who we've got the most trouble with getting 236C>3C shinanigans to work on. Yet to test it on everyone. The key to this one is letting JinJin nearly touch the ground after TKj.236C because you can't use 2C to position him for 6C to make posisioning for 236C easier. (that was a mouthful.) Anyway should I'mma post my 6C/4D/41236B starter combos here in a sec once I test them on everybody. Which will take forever, (wish I could have help for some of them -_-") EDIT: Here's a list of all of them, [(g)=ground hit (a)=air hit] I put an "*" next to the ones that will need to be tested a "X" next to the ones that don't, and a "R" if testing it would be redundant after testing a similar combo, but it could still not work if the similar combo doesn't work. I'm going to slowly check these off, while noting any notable differences in timing. I'd welcome any help. (g)6C>236C>214A>41236B>5B>5C>j.B>j.236C>665B>5C>4D>3C [4035DMG/+28HT/-2000IG] X (g)6C>236C>214A>41236B>5B>5C(1)>j.B>j.236C>3C [3494DMG/+25HT/-1000IG] X (g)41236B>5B>3C>236C~214A>665C>jump back>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>4D>3C [4151DMG/+29HT/-2000IG] X (g)41236B>5B>3C>236C~214A>665C>jump back>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>22A [4023DMG/+28HT/-1000IG] X (g)41236B>5B>3C>236C~214A>665C>jump back>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>5C>4D>3C [4532DMG/+4HT/-2000IG] X (g)41236B>5B>3C>236C~214A>665C>jump back>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>3C [4295DMG/+3HT/-1000IG] X (a)4D>3C>236C~214A>665C>jump back>j.C>236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C [3579DMG/+25HT/-2000IG] X (a)4D>5C>neutral jump>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>5C>2C>236C>3C [3403 DMG/+24HT/-1000IG] * (a)4D>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>6B>TKj.236C>3C [3164DMG/+22HT/-1000IG] * (a) 41236B>5C(1)>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3442DMG/+24HT/IG free] R (a) 41236B>5C(2)>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3527DMG/+25HT/IG free] * (a) 41236B>5C(2)>forward jump>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>3C [4123DMG/+2HT/IG free] * (a) 41236B>5B>5C>j.B>delay>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3507DMG/+25HT/IG free] * (a) 41236B>5B>6B>TKj.236C>665C>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>3C [3806DMG/+/-0HT/IG free] * (a) 41236B>5B>236C~214A>665C>jump back>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>3C [4246DMG/+3HT/-1000IG] R (a) 41236B>5B>236C~214A>665C>jump back>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>5A+B>5C>2C>4D>3C [4615DMG/+3HT/-2000IG] R (a) 41236B>5B>236C~214A>665C>jump back>j.C>j.236C>5B>2C>6C>4D>3C [4084DMG/+29HT/-2000IG] X (back to corner) 4B+C>41236B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>6C>236C>3C [3134DMG/+22HT/IG free] * (g) 5B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C [3373DMG/+24HT/IG free] * (g) IAD>j.B>j.C>665B>6B>TKj.236C>5B>2C>236C>5B>2C>6C>41236B>3C [2797DMG/+20HT/IG free] R For the 236C>5B/3C links you want to use 2C or 6C to make the opponent go barely above 236C's hitbox for the first few active frames, when they come down and hit the last few active frames of 236C your recovery is lessened and you get to combo into 5B or 3C. It should also be noted that all the combos I listed that use crush trigger make their own heat, EXCEPT for the one that has a listed heat gain of "+/-0", that one requires 1 heat to start but then makes it back. So really it's like eight combos that need to be tested and four combos that hinge on the testing of other combos here. The good news is once we have these legitimized (If they can't be improved upon) we will only have Counter/Fatal combos, Overdrive combos, Heat/Carry intensive combos, and Neta combos left to do. (I mean, there will always be improvements to be found in combos, but we'll have formed a pretty all inclusive thread of Relish Crowbar Combos.) Edit,Edit: WakeUpDP, d'you mind if I call you Wakky for the Wak in Wake?