dragontamer

I find that the best use of 2D is to keep your throws honest. IE: 5A 5A -> dashup 2D / BC. Many players react to the dash, instead of the exclamation marks. If you react to the dash, 2D will counter-hit you into massive damage (2D CH -> d.6C -> d.6D -> d.2D etc etc...). The crossup is kinda gimmicky, and it does catch a lot of people.

Guard Crush Resets make scrubs rage even harder. :-) BTW: you were the first person to use it on me. It feels as if it comes out of nowhere... even though I invented it >_<. Its like, oh fuck, why did I tech? I only have two primers left... BTW: j.4D Oki was me just trolling you because you stopped teching.

Never use auto-wakeup. You should always neutral tech before you auto-wakeup. Neutral Tech -> jump will save you 100% of the time vs 720, even if it is meaty.

Also, mash jump if you are standing / crouching state and he's comboing you, to prevent the 360B tick-throw (vs good tagers, who don't do any purple grabs). However... better tagers start to lol tick-throw 623C you

And 3 finishers. 236D, 623D, and 214D. 6 On the normals, 4 on D, 2 in the air, and 3 finishers. Not including 214A and 236A/B/C (I guess 5 finishers...)

Standing Resets, like 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> sjc -> j.D -> d.5A -> d.6B / d.6D / d.6C -- 1-frame overhead standing reset / 6-frame low standing reset / Guard Crush reset. I mean, come on, we have something like 15 chain revolver attacks, which makes 921,984 different chain revolver strings, not counting the d.5C -> sjc -> j.D link to cheat our way into a longer combo string. With 1-frame overhead resets off of any d.5D, d.2D, and d.5A... you honestly can't tell me that this character is "easy to figure out". Meh, maybe I'll be the only one researching the Chain Revolver strings. I'll keep you guys up to date about what I find... but really... I could use some help I'm sure theres a ton of shit that I haven't figured out yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjAhuvyUoSs Touhou == Bullet Hell shooter. Works well with Noel. As far as the song itself, it has a clear intro and middle, great for a combo video with the format "Intro" -> "Combos". The music clearly changes and remains interesting for a few minutes, despite the fact that it loops. EDIT: Above is the boss fight, which is why its short. The stage music is a bit longer and is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4mYiJDrbUE

Whatever, you've always been the pessimist here, so I know I won't convince you. Moving on, if there's anything important that needs to go into the new Noel Guide, start posting it. See my post here for an idea of what I'm thinking.

Wrong, the Tager boards are full of gimmicks because they have disccusion and actively research his character. And some of those gimmicks become viable, like double-Gadget Rapid AC into ~2k damage + Gadget Oki. We sit around and pretend like we have no fucking options what so ever, despite being apparently a better character than Tager (according to Japan). I for one am tired of this. EDIT: Also, d.6C -> d.5B. Learn it, love it. Its a solid blockstring even on instant-block and pushes opponents away.

Do we even know if BBCS2 will have the balance patch? Last I checked, Platinum isn't even confirmed for BBCS2 yet. Even then, Winter can be as early as December or as late as Feburary. In the worst case, if this guide gets written by say, two weeks from now, thats still all of October / November to utilize the guide. Overall, the state of the Noel community is pretty grim. And I don't think its a matter of high tier / low tier stuff: Tager players are better at finding new Tager shit than we are, with new tech traps and double-gadget finger, they've continuously innovated Tager. What have we done here that truely advanced the state of Noel? And don't say there ain't stuff out there, I've got other experiments in the works involving the Chain Revolver Oki stuff... try out 6A -> 6C -> (delayed) j.D -> d.6A -> d.6B whiff -> (delayed) d.6C for crossed under Chain Revolver Oki. Remove the delay and do 6A -> 6C -> (non-delayed) j.D -> d.6A -> d.6C for standard Chain Revolver Oki). I don't fully understand it yet (sometimes it doesn't seem to crossunder, doesn't seem to work on Tager... etc. etc) ... but there's a ton of potential here. Anyway, a guide is the first step towards that. We, as a community, need to know the highest level of known Noel play out there. Only then, we can start looking for ways to improve the "ideal Noel playstyle".

Who said that? Surely no one is that stupid... if 214D~B is a reversal, then so is Bang's 5A. Seriously I mean, Bang's 5A strikes on frame 6, while 214D~B's invincibility comes out on frame 7 IIRC...

Good opponents seem to figure out your resets very quickly when you only have one reset setup. So here are new options: In the corner: 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> j.D -> d.5A -> d.6A -> d.5D / d.2D / d.5A -> (reset) d.6B / d.6D -> 623D Similar to the other one, but you don't have the time to make d.6B have a good combo into d.6C. Still does decent damage. It is set up exactly the same as the IMO "better" reset, except the first d.5A doesn't have the reset at all. The proration on that must be absolutely terrible, so I'm not sure if its actually a 1-frame reset. But the point of this one is to beat out your opponent's reversal. They'll hit it after the first d.5A, while you continue the combo instead of doing a reset. d.6D 623D will combo outside of the corner. d.6B -> 623D needs rapid or corner to continue the combo. 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> 214A. Lol Low reset. ************** Overall, I think the psychological damage that resets do make them worth the possible damage loss. They force your opponent to think during your combos. Not quite as good as say, Carl or Litchi, but forcing your opponent to think more is always a good thing. You don't want to give your opponent any rest. Just doing one or two sucessful resets changes the mindset of your opponent, even if you don't do any resets for the rest of the match.

Beating Ragna's 22C is as simple as not teching and then blocking the "mixup" that is about to hit you. (ie: block low and then react to 6B). I would say the characters above Ragna do have better pressure than him, and also have similar amounts of damage. Hazama / Bang have command grabs, Litchi has absolutely godly Oki. Arakune has that curse pressure, and Carl has all of those damn resets and unblockables. (Carl's resets > Ragna 22C) Now, Ragna's overhead option that seems to get me is his TK Gauntlet Hades. The fastest overhead in the game with 12+4 frames of startup (4 frames if you include the jump). I mean, sure, Ragna's pressure is better than Jin, Noel, Lambda, Hakumen, etc. etc. but I think I have more trouble with good Hazama / Bang / Litchi.

Here's my thoughts on a new CS guide. Audience : We need to assume absolute beginners here. People who don't know zoning, pokes, and so forth. The current guide is written for CT players transitioning over to CS. We are at the point where we have new Noel players in this community who haven't played CT. With that said, I would prefer the outline to be "the correct way of thinking" when playing a fighting game. IE: Here's your options in the air. Here are your poking options. A "Weird / Experimental Stuff" section would be useful for getting beginning players up to speed to where current Noel Strategy Discussion is. However, this section is low-priority because the majority of players don't care about figuring stuff out on their own. So.... Chain Revolver Oki / Resets may go in here, as well as d.5C -> 2147A, d.5C -> 228 B and so forth. Stuff that isn't "solid play", but deserve mention. Here's my idea of an outline. * Moves Rundown ** Pokes (5A, 5B, 5C...). Gotta mention Noel's poor hitbox / priority here. ** Mixups (lol. 6B / 2B does count as a mixup... kinda...) ** Pressure Strings (warn against chain revolver. Note Counter-hit setups like 2A -> 5C and 5A -> 2C. The 2B cross under vs Emergency Tech trick. 5D BC Kara-throw) ** Anti-Pressure: 6A (anti-air), 4D, 5D, importance of instant-block ** Oki (Meaty 6B. 2B punishing rolls. 662B crossing under Emergency Tech / Neutral Tech. Combos that lead to Oki) * Combo Rundown ** I like how Tekken Forums organize their combos. You organize them by frames. IE: you list your most powerful 5-frame punishes (5A -> 6A -> etc. etc.). Then your most powerful 10 frame punishes, etc. etc. For example: 6-Frames: 5A -> 6A -> blah. Maybe 5D can count as a 5-frame punish (invincible on frame 4 afterall...) 9-Frames: 6C (Counter) -> 3C -> blah. 6C (Counter) -> 5D -> blah. 6C -> 2C (no counter). Throw -> blah. 20-frames :3C -> 22BC -> blah Anti-Low: 2D -> blah Anti-Air: 6A -> 6C -> blah. 6A -> 5C -> blah. ** We should also note mixup options. 2B -> 6A -> blah as a low. Options off of d.6D, d.6B, and 6B. Some combos are useful because they punish opponents doing stupid shit. Some combos on the other hand are useful on the offensive. This is where throw combos would be. * Character Specific Matchup information ... I'm not comfortable writing this. It takes a lot of experience to write something correct here. Maybe some basic tips like 5C loses to Tager's Sledge, and 5D beats a lot of slow stuff slow like B Sledge... 4D beating Gauntlet Hades. But nothing very detailed like the current guide. ******************** Things not to include in the guide: 1. Chain Revolver Oki : Lets be honest, too early to recommend this to everyone. Lets play it out a bit more, I have my own topic anyway for discussion. With wakeup-supers and wakeup-reversals being a tool of everyone, its a bit "weak" to include it in a general purpose guide. 2. Detailed Character Matchups : Obvious and Broad Character Matchup info is useful. But I don't want anything super-detailed. If we are aiming at a beginner, the tips wouldn't really apply to him anyway, because beginners don't know how to wakeup Inferno Divider anyway. 3. Chain Revolver Pressure: While I think this has promise, I don't think I have enough experience yet to write a pressure guide. Again, there's another topic dedicated to this discussion, so thats where this sort of thing should go. 1 and 3 might go into a "weird stuff" section, but I don't consider it solid enough to actually place in a serious guide yet. Basically, lets have a simple, boring guide that sticks with the books. A guide is not the place for silly experimental gimmicks.

Erm... are we playing the same game here? I'm no Hazama player... but in my experience against him... I feel that Hazama's 3C is a frame trap which happens to be low. You'll definitely not beat it if you just mash jabs, especially if Hazama is using it in a blockstring (say... 2B -> 3C) Stance A and C have 19 frames of startup. Sure, I can react to them and block in time, but unless the opponent is being a bit predictable I wouldn't be confident in my ability to react to that and attempt to jab him out of it. Hell, we don't see Pros reacting to slower overheads with Inferno Divider or Jabs. Not even Pro Hakumens react to overheads with 6D 100% of the time, and many overheads are slower than 19 frames. Attempting to punish Stance before A/C comes out seems too risky to me: Stance B will just counter-hit you into a combo. And punishing A/C during its startup just seems unlikely to me.

Meh seems close enough based on the level of discussion on this forum. We really need to update the matchup chart though. So much tier list talk without specific matchup information? It is insane to put much faith in a tier list without considering the play-by-play details that matter. After all, the utility of a tier list is in the discussion it generates. It is a decent way to formalize theory-BlazBlue and for an exchange of ideas to be put forth. Claiming X character is better than Y character does nothing except stroke your ego for picking the best character... or stroke your ego for doing so well with a character who is considered bad.

True, but I consider Tager's 421B to be a disadvantage for him. Unless Tager likes eating clean 3C into Haida and probably corner combos. He might be able to use minimum charged 421B, but that gives Noel significantly more options to approach him... the attack takes 39 frames minimum. There's a certain distance where 421B is just too unsafe for Tager to do. And if Tager tries to Sledge, 5D, 5C or any of his moves that reach that far... you can just 5D on reaction to counter-hit. I'm finding that playing vs Tager is still about staying at his "sweetspot". I think its still Tager's advantage, because again, he can just walk towards you and force you to make a move, but he can't jump towards you.

Its not that bad... Tager has difficulty approaching unmagnetized Noel. All of his Aerials are beaten by either 5D or 4D. Magnetized Noel raises the stakes on both sides, but it doesn't really do much for Tager's air game (lol. countering j.D with 5D / 4D) Pretty much, Tager's only approach is slowly walking towards you on the ground...

Good Bangs spam counter-drive? Since when? Last time I checked, good bangs spam 5A against 5C and 2B, and then I eat 3k+ combos all day. 5A has more range, priority, better proration and goes into crazy combos. Sigh. On the other hand, I don't think this is a terrible matchup. While Bang wins air-to-air ... Bang's anti-air options are terrible. But I really don't like Noel's poking game, I'm pretty sure I'll lose if I ever try poking with 5C or 2B...

The opponent is in standing state, so they can't tech. An opponent mashing buttons would get counter-hit during that state. So its like... 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> sjc. -> j.D -> j.5A -> (ITS A TRAP!!) -> d.6B / d.6D Its what those annoying Carl players do, except you're doing it as Noel, with less damage, and slower mixups... and no unblockable setups . Well, d.6C -> 623D guard crushes, so thats a funny one to do every now and then. Also, its what good Ragnas do at the end of some of their strings... 22C -> 2B -> 6B / 3C mixups. Lol, I got this one guy who bursted as Hazama, he had no heat... Hit him with: 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> sjc. -> j.D -> j.5A -> d.6C -> 623D (guard Crush) -> 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> sjc. -> j.D -> j.5A -> d.6C -> 623D (guard crush) -> 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> sjc. -> j.D -> j.5A -> d.6C -> 623D For the rest of the match. It was hilarious. BTW: For d.5A -> d.6B, they have to be standing, they can't crouch, or else it will combo and not reset. I think d.5A -> d.6C will reset regardless, because d.6C is pretty slow... EDIT2: d.5A (reset) -> d.6B -> d.6A -> d.6C -> 214A -> 2B 6C stuff is an easy combo. Its not like the other tech trap I mentioned earlier... d.6B reset makes it really easy to get damage due to d.6C 214A. If you wanna be risky, you can always d.6A -> d.5C -> j.D -> d.5A and go for another reset, lol.

d.5C -> 2147A links were done, but not fully explored last time I checked. They tend to do a good amount of damage. Mizzet's standing 5D combos are interesting, especially because they lend themselves nicely to blah -> d.5A -> resets. Pointing out the resets available during those standing combos would be nice. d.5A -> d.6B is a 1-frame reset. d.5A -> d.6D is a 6-frame low-profile reset, so both are mash-throw-proof and jab proof, and you have a decent mixup there. Sure, an opponent who is paying attention will be able to block both (both are slower than 20 frames...) but that forces your opponent to pay attention to your combos for random ass resets, which can fatigue them. Random hits in chain revolver should be explored. Baiting Tager's Sledge with Bloom Trigger -> Rapid -> 5D is a powerful link, but I haven't explored it really. (low proration and you can land 5D without using 6C... maybe 66C -> 4D, and maybe even 66 4D from there... haven't looked at it too much). Make the CPU tech Fenrir's last hit, and do a funny combo off of that. Its great damage + proration on a launched opponent, not very useful but hilarious.

Yeah, I can't do it consistently either. I generally rapid to get more easy damage off of it. I just made it up, I was hoping someone else would find a good combo d.6B -> 236D is easy enough... d.6B -> d.5D -> 623D -> 66C is a very difficult link... probably related to the d.6C timing even. Its very easy in the corner / rapid however. If the opponent is standing, I guess d.6B -> d.5C -> 2147A is a link, also difficult and doesn't work on crouching... but a link nonetheless. (lol, overhead combo that doesn't work on crouching opponents). Then again, you can catch them standing because of the massive guardstun on d.6C.

Yeah, while most combos can end in j.d d.6B and then force an emergency tech into d.6C... some need to be modified slightly. A good example: Midscreen Throw -> 214A -> 2B 6C j.D d.6D d.5C j.D d.6B is the best I could manage. Doing the standard j.D d.6D d.6B d.5C j.D d.6B will just cause too much proration (probably from double proration penalty for using j.D twice and d.6B twice). Neutral air tech into d.6C is still towards Noel's advantage, plus the opponent probably couldn't dragon punch. Back-air tech in the corner is also to Noel's advantage. So its not bad, just not quite as good as d.6C on emergency tech.

Hmm, the thing is, I've got a lot of stuff that I'm testing right now, but I'm not sure if it is tested enough to go into a guide. Plus, I have other pet projects I'm working on. Nevertheless, a more up-to-date guide (and perhaps a more optimistic guide) will spice up this forum. Overall, I don't think I have enough experience to write a "Chain Revolver Pressure" guide like I did in CT. But the more "solid" play, like 5A -> 6A combos and 2B -> 6A combos, as well as a more accurate opinion on Noel's normals (ie: 5A is not slower, it just recovers slower), and information on simple frame traps... I'm finding 2A to be a very solid tool for frametraps and tick-throws for example. Its not like Noel has a mixup anymore, so relying on a good frame-trap game to force the opponent on the defensive is needed. (also, 2A -> CH 5Cs are always good on overly aggressive opponents)

BTW: are people interested in a new Noel guide? This one, while a good introduction, is a bit dated. In particular, I think it is important to note that 5B and 5C are very poor zoning tools due to their poor hitboxes. They should be viewed more as "quick mid-range attacks", as opposed to "zoning tools". Especially to someone who transitions from CT -> CS, its important to note just how bad the 5B hitbox has become.