dragontamer

A valid concern. I too have been on forums where it was poorly implemented. Which is why you can only give badges to humble members of the forum. Keep a close watch on new badged users, and if they can't take the responsibility, take it away from them. In the end of the day, assholes who work for the system are more manageable than assholes without a system. It'd be great if everyone just worked together, but the point of a system is to take people who are normally assholes and modify their behavior for the betterment of the forum.

Lesson in operant conditioning: Negative Reinforcement is a terrible teacher. Positive Reinforcement is much better. In this sense, it becomes very easy to see how "degenerative mob trolling behavior" happens. If a second person decides to troll with you, he is positively reinforcing the trolling behavior. Even if moderators use negative reinforcement (ie: Banning and/or infractions), people won't be affected by it. In fact, most people become confused when confronted with negative reinforcement. (notice: "why was sogos banned" was an early theme in this thread). Its not an issue of intelligence, its basic psychology. Infractions are a useful tool to encourage behavior, but its not powerful enough to be the primary tool. Here's a survey of successful communities I've been to: 1. StackOverflow -- Very powerful new paradigm. People are encouraged to up-vote, and discouraged to down-vote (it costs you points to down-vote). Overall, you get up-voted if you make a useful answer to a question. Also, you get an up-vote if you made a good question. Thus, people learn to ask good questions, and people learn to write good answers. 2. Smogon -- Competitive Pokemon forum. Posters with good behavior are given badges, after deliberation of the moderators. http://www.smogon.com/forums/faq.php?faq=smogon#faq_badges . Badges are born when moderators want to recognize a poster for what he has done. That is, organizing tournaments, contributing artwork, writing articles or whatever. If it benefits the site, then they get a badge. Anyway, thats something I noticed that this site is missing. Positive reinforcement. The only positive reinforcement is basically stickying a thread and making someone a Moderator... not nearly powerful enough to encourage good behavior across this forum. The badge system is more suited for a forum and should be simpler to implement. Immediately, here are some things I can think of. * Scout -- The poster knows Japanese and uses his knowledge to give us translations on the latest news from Japan. For example, HeartNana in Noel forums. He's gone to loketests, translates the blogs, etc. etc. * Contributor -- Wrote a useful guide. It doesn't need to be official. Basically anyone who wrote a stickied guide in the various character forums. * Tournament Organizer -- `nuff said. Needs to be someone who does it regularly. Zeth07 for instance. * Knows his shit -- People who know their shit. So that new players who come to the forums know who they're talking to. This should be given to strong players who know how to debate well. Preferably, they shouldn't troll too much (or else, people will be encouraged to troll). They also should be relatively talkative in the general forums. Just some ideas. It will take a bit of work to set up a system like this, but in the long run, it ought to make this community better. There is a risk in making the badge system look like a "secret club" of Dustloop. Thus... badged members need remain humble about their accomplishments. Its just a friggen badge. A public "nominations" thread for badges also helps. (with the rule that you're not allowed to nominate yourself, and it will take three public nominations before the moderators consider it). That way, people know that the badges are born from the community, and not from the "elite club".

Noel's d.5C (Chain Revolver 5C) can be jump canceled before it can be super-canceled. This means that d.5C -> 2147A is a link, while d.5C -> 214A is NOT a link. All of Noel's Drives are "drive canceled" or "super canceled" some time after hit. Its a property that is unique to Chain Revolver. Unlike a normal gatling which is canceled during hitstop or active frames. Basically, its more like Ragna's Inferno Divider followups, and not really a gatling. Thats why d.5C jump-cancel 214A (which is a true gatling) links while d.5C 214A does not.

Its a SSB term. I don't know the equivalent in fighting game communities. Noel's BBCT 5B clearly had a disjointed hitbox. She can whack you with the "gun" part, and even if the opponent was doing a Dragon Punch or something, she wouldn't get hit. If spaced correctly, the best your opponent can do is clash. Now, Noel's BBCS 5B lacks this property. Thus, even at max range, if you use 5B on an opponent, you'll get (counter) hit out of it. When you would have clashed in BBCT, you now get counter-hit. The only attacks with disjointed hitbox are her Chain Revolver attacks. Even wtf 5C isn't disjoint. The "explosion" is part of Noel's hitbox. Almost all of Tager's attacks have disjointed hitboxes. Tager's 2A is the best example of it. Its why Tager's 2A can be used as an anti-air.

The 2C -> 5C gatling sounded stupid when it first came out. However, now that 5C is air-unblockable (everyone's 5C is air-unblockable, right??), if someone is doing IB -> jump out, the 5C has potential to catch them. I say potential because after IB, 2C has 11 blockstun, and 5C hits on frame 11 or 12... So that will require experimentation.

Please post video :-) Noel's BNB's are shot? I didn't see any nurfs to 5A d.6A d.6C j.D. In fact, I found a buff: 6A hits crouching opponents and 5B -> 2B -> 6A is a new gatling. I haven't seen anything that makes 5D -> 6A -> 6C -> 214A any worse, so we still have a midscreen launcher. If we still have d.5C jump cancels... then d.5C -> 2147A would do more than 623D 66C link. Similarly, 5C CH and 2C CH can go into 5D -> 6A and do similar amounts of damage. Sure, 2C CH -> 3C Haida loop was better, but we're gonna get close to 3.8k anyway (assuming similar damage). On crouching opponents, we can always go into 3C -> 22BC -> 66C -> 236A -> 66C -> 5D -> 6B or 66C -> j.D if that doesn't work out. Should still go into ~3.8k damage or so. Counter-hit 5D and 2D also link to 2147A. Even if the jump cancel is lost (I hope not, it IMO keeps the game much more interesting...), d.6C 214A is solid damage. In addition, we're likely to get better combos now that d.6B ground-bounces (likely to have more untechable time and other setups). Also, faster chain revolver ftw.

BBCS2 seems like it is designed to have less crazy shit. I guess I'll have to play it to see if thats a good or bad thing. Definitely a good thing for Noel :-)

Thread doesn't exist, so I made one. First of all, thank you shtkn for starting this project. This will definitely be a useful guide when completed. Question: What will the notation be for limited gatlings? For example, Noel's 2B gatlings to itself once. Bang's 2A gatlings to itself once. Taokaka's 2A gatlings into itself twice. I think a "2A limit 2" (for Bang) and "2A limit 3" (for Taokaka) would be the best notation. Either way, there needs to be some sort of consistant notation across the board. ------------- SHTKN EDIT: Here's the announcement in case you didn't see it Hi all, I'm trying to get everyone's gatlings into the frame data for both games, and I'd like to ask people to help out with getting all of the info. Here's some of the ones I already have and a general idea of the layout i plan on using: http://dustloop.com/guides/gatling.html i'm plnanning on putting each character's gatlings right below their frame data if you'd like to help, please go into training mode and start testing. Make sure to test if they're special cancelable, super cancelable, jump cancelable etc. For multihitting moves, try to test on each hit if possible and see if you can/can't cancel on certain attacks. thank you, and hopefully we'll have this done quickly. If you have any feedback, please post in the site feedback section of the site (and make a thread for it if it doesn't exist already). -------------

Only in GG. You need tension to do a dashing grab. :-) (although, you'd probably get the tension you needed from the dash...)

Yup.

Not sure >_< Red Noel keeps doing 3C, and Blue Noel is kinda D spammy. That said... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epn-fg48i9M . No, its not a match video. Its Christina Vee being awesome.

A 3 frame trap is the correct answer, and those exist already. Also, lows prevent players from jumping barrier: you can't hold up and block low at the same time. Jump back + barrier will stop air-unblockable Ragna 5B and Jin's 5C, so I doubt it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0KgQbxKefs Hey look, I can play that game too :-)

Throw Noel in there too. 5A -> 6A -> 6C -> Drive combo only does 2.3k, while it did 3k in CT. Haida loop always did ~5k damage. 5C COUNTER -> 5D -> 6C -> 214A -> etc. did 4.3k in CT. 5C CH -> 5D -> 6A -> 6C -> stuff does 3.3k in CS. Noel only gained damage off of corner throws and lol clean 5D hits. Then again, Haida loop is now easier in CS...

Instant-blocking Valk's pressure is absolutely necessary in this matchup.

Say what? CT Optic Barrel was way better than CS Optic Barrel. CT Optic Barrel was bigger and +19 frames on block. On normal-hit, 236A and 236B went into 6C loop and counter-hit 236C went into 6C loop for ~3k+ damage. CT Optic Barrel was large enough to punish forward / backward rolls and go for 3k full-screen roll punish + Oki. In CS, 236B/C is -5 frames and no combos are possible. 236C CounterHit + Rapid isn't enough to make a combo. 236A is 0 frames on block. Sure, its faster, but its a worthless tool. Its best use is to use it in Chain Revolver as a pseudo-safe escape and hope that your opponent doesn't poke you out of the wtf still slow 30 frames of startup. In CT, 5B had disjointed hitbox and the same range as Ragna's 5B. Using 5B alone, I could outpoke Tager. Noel's midrange options were severely nurfed in CS. Both 5B and 5C have smaller hitboxes than vulnerable regions. Noel's midrange and projectile options were far superior in BB:CT. ******** If you're talking about BBCS2... I dunno what you're talking about either. Because they haven't nurfed 5A in BBCS2 as far as I know.

Because of all of those times when we land d.6B in a match, amirite? Aside from j.d canceled d.6B, there isn't a safe way to throw out d.6B. Hell, even including j.D cancel d.6B... if the opponent blocks that, Noel is screwed. I'll gladly trade the high damage d.6B combo for the new 5B -> 2B -> 6A -> etc. combo... even if 5B -> 2B doesn't have as much damage. 5B is actually a safe, solid poke to throw out. Furthermore, it actually creates a mixup opportunity for Noel: 5B -> 6B vs 5B -> 2B... You can't combo from 2C (so no one is scared of the low), and 6B was way too slow (and they're not scared of 2C anyway). They're buffing Noel's low risk options at a slight cost of the high-risk options. I like that.

My point is... we managed in CT because of the braindead easy 6C loop. Distance and Timing seems like a terrible way to manage the opponent's height. Sure, its possible, but I don't want every combo to become as difficult as CT Haida or CT corner bloom trigger loops.

Personally, I'm quite happy with the changes. Combo + Oki off of random 5B (5B -> 2B -> 6A -> 6C -> j.D -> etc. etc.), 6A working on crouchers again (not for combos, but this helps her pressure), etc. etc. This will make Noel a more solid character. Sure, 3C and 5D are going to lose some damage, but those are unsafe gimmicks anyway. Plus, 6B overhead looks faster, and d.6B and other chain revolver attacks look faster as well. Noel might actually have solid pressure if they keep all of her changes. There's still a lot of unknowns... Chain revolver looks faster, but it may still have a ton of holes and is vulnerable to dragon-punches. 6B may look faster, but thats really hard to test. And of course, there are the nurfs which will inevitably lower Noel's maximum damage. Nonetheless, there really isn't much to complain about IMO. Noel gained some solid tools in this Loketest.

In CT, we had a universal way to manage the height of the opponent: the 6C loop.

Oh yeah, forgot about this one. Its a classic. 2C -> Rapid -> 66A -> Combo. 2C has great proration, you get something like 3k out of this. 2C is a good frame-trap and easy to hitconfirm because of the two hits. If they're crouching, go into Haida. If they're standing, rapid cancel into 66A into drive loop. 5C -> Rapid -> 66A also works, but 2C is a good low and easier to hitconfirm.

Clean midscreen d.236D -> Rapid -> (pause to adjust height) -> 66C -> 5D -> corner combo. Turns ~1k damage to closer to 4k damage and regains a lot of that heat... into fenrir if you want to get even more damage.

6C loop has same proration. You just can't do it midscreen anymore because 6C is literally 60% slower than it used to be.

6A 2B 6A 2B 6A works on blocking Tager right now. You can test it in training mode. With 6A working on crouchers and an additional gatling from 5B (even if its a limited gatling), this will greatly improve our pressure. The reason you don't see it is because lol 6A whiffs on crouchers except for Tager. I do it on better Tagers who don't fall for the normal stuff. 66 2B 6A 2B 6A 6B catches the more experienced Tagers by surprise because no one knows about this blockstring. Its Tager specific right now... but with 6A working on crouchers, thats when it will become global. Additional gatlings to 6A will make it better. There doesn't seem to be any issue with d.6B bouncing too high (like 22C, its too high now for combos). j.D -> d.6B should bounce high enough for a combo, if say, j.6D was already used. Basically... 5D -> d.6D -> d.2D -> 623D (corner) -> 6C -> j.D -> d.5D whiffs on short hitboxes (ie: Mu), and d.6B doesn't bounce high enough for a good combo. I guess d.5C works, but overall, it just seems like it will be easier to combo into other attacks.

Totally forgot about the new gatlings... 6A 2B 5B 6A 2B 6A 6B blockstring! Spirit Juice's thread says that 5D isn't JCable anymore, which confuses me for obvious reasons. I'd say yes.