Suggested Tweaks and Oversights

[Bjorn]

I agree with all of these proposed changes, while you're at it please raise Chipp's defense stat to 0.9 and swap his air hurtbox with Elphelt's.

 

I don't ask for much I'm a reasonable man.

[Magaki]

Well, these are the kinda posts I am looking forward to.  Be patient though, last night was like sleeping on bricks for me.

To be fair, you can't really blame people for reacting the way they did. When you notice a thread with the title "Suggested tweaks and oversights", you're expecting to find serious and sound arguement.
Should have pointed out that rather than being suggested tweaks, it was just a wishlist.

Fairly certain if you read your first posts again, you will notice you could have elaborated and worded several points much better.

That and let's be honest, some comments are hilarious.
I mean come on, ZEUS INSTALL !!
If he got Last Edguy and give as much fuck as Raoh, I would drop Elphelt for Ky right away hahahaha

[Coffeeling]

Im glad ASW doesn't come here for character balance suggestions. 

They could go to Capcom-Unity instead.

[Ryyudo]

 

If anything, why doesn't someone explain to me why Faust should have such ridiculous screen control, range, and insane rushdown (what with being complete with a safejump that stops his upward momentum) and be considered fair, with no need for changes in revalator, if these designers are completely astute in their balance mechanics?  I did keep in mind the abilities of better Sol players, my one problem is that there were properties about certain moves that I didn't take into consideration, and should've tried in practice mode rather than just relying entirely on theory fighter.  They've been addressed, and dropped.  I still have a few others that I still think are viable until they are also addressed in an appropriate way.

I dunno where insane "rushdown" is coming from (that's something I'd give to Sol, Chipp, or Millia), and I figure you mean Faust's "mixup"; Faust's air movement is poor, and his running movement isn't super speedy or anything.  He's a character who fares better staying put, generally, hence his FD momentum stopping being a strong tool as it keeps him IN PLACE.  Faust needs to control the screen SO he can move into his mixup game.  To do that, he needs to throw out strong normals to keep people away/rushing him down too hard.  Generally, without RC or good CH reads, this does not lead to much damage.  Really, what he wants it to lead into is a good situation, where he gets a hit and the opponent is forced to react to an item on the screen, making up for his lesser movement through screen control.  

 

If Faust did not have screen control, there's little reason for an opponent to gorilla their way through to him while he's trying to throw out an item, because then there's no fear of Faust actually doing anything worthwhile.  Faust's ability to rushdown, mixup, and damage is not strong enough to carry him as a character in XRD.  His normals/chains are slow by comparison and may leave him at disadvantage, have mashable gaps, extend his hurtbox to be punished, or push the opponent out some to try and keep himself safe.  Faust is about doing things safely as possible while forcing his opponent to move and not himself, so long as you do safe things.  His reward for hitting properly isn't as great as other characters damage wise, but he'll get single, strong hits more often.  He's akin to Dhalsim of Street Fighter.  Keep opponent out until a good situation arises.  Get in and have one or two good shots at strong mixup tools.  If you hit it, great!  If you don't, ruh roh....

 

Faust lacks defense, hence his whole game is based around avoiding that situation IF you play with smart/good actions.  He can block, of course, and alpha counter (whatever it's called in guilty lol) with a blind spot above his head that's far more abuse-able when Faust is in the corner.  He has his Cup super which requires 50 meter, a grounded opponent, a big enough move from the opponent to invlun through, and STILL some good luck as the opponent has a chance to get out.  It's not 100% reliable or useful, though it's not terrible by any means.  He has his crawl which sacrifices his ability to defend for the chance to avoid attacks with his lower hurtbox.  There's Dust (YRC) which is tricky but loses to throw and meatier attacks.  Once again, Faust is just based off good decision making at the right times.  I will agree that his hurtbox, while being combo'd, should be normalized more.  Then again for some characters, it leads to extra damage.  So I guess it's what the character makes of it.

 

Faust plays to pressing the right button(s) at very specific right times.  He needs reliable moves in most, but specific, situations to make up for his inconsistent item throws.  If you were to extend his, already pretty large, hurtboxes then he'd be less making actively good decisions and more playing scared/defensively/hoping for good item luck.  Normals in the wrong situation can be beat (f.S against a ready opponent can lead to getting 6P, Pilebunker, VV, Ky's Slip & Slide, etc punishing it from full range with CH) and if you, as an opponent, DON'T end up beating it, the result?  Taking some damage and Faust gaining some control with item (assuming no meter usage), pretty much not the end of the world, just returning closer-to-neutral.  Other characters fight more for damage/oki, Faust fights for spacing and control.  When he wins that, he gets more options to add to his game plans, such as mix up, damage (which is still mediocre generally, but far more consistent than other characters).  All the same, it can be taken away and he's in his worst situation of defending.

 

Faust IS strong when things are (hehehe) Going His Way.  He's a strong, fundamental-based character.  You take away his reliable-per-situation normals and he'll lose his ability to throw items, have a reliable gameplan between items, and his general ability to gain control.  The reason items work for him is because if it's a bad item, he STILL has options.

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

Breakable moves in MOTW still have recovery and can be whiff punished.

Tell that to Kain R. Heinlein. 

They're more like separate moves with their own properties, rather than simply cancelling back to neutral from a move. It's not like GG where you get to cancel directly back to neutral AND you slow the other person down.

People using them properly or at the right distance means that they will most likely never get punished outside of backdash or a just defend into a quick hitting super.  Regardless of that, they have their break points at the most optimum timing, which is what someone was attempting to use as a counterpoint earlier towards me.  He asked, I answered.  *shrug*  I could also go out on a limb and say MVC3/U has the ability to cancel out of whiffed DPs too. 

 

 

To be fair, you can't really blame people for reacting the way they did.

I totally can.    Likening making a character derpier to play to something like armeggedon is nothing more than sheer absurdity, especially without stating what would be wrong with it.  Like, say, if Beast replied first, and explained all this stuff, THEN everyone went insane, then let the party begin. 

And I litterally had trouble sleeping last night.  Probably too much sugar.  They're not bothering me by shitting up the thread, and felating eachother in congratulations for it.  There's nothing shameful in being proven wrong during an argument.  If they want to see my skills they can bring it to the net.  Believe me, I find this stuff just as amusing as you do. 

When you notice a thread with the title "Suggested tweaks and oversights", you're expecting to find serious and sound arguement.
Should have pointed out that rather than being suggested tweaks, it was just a wishlist.
 

That's fair enough, but the problems overall that have been explained so far could be dealt with using an overall damage nerf, which I'd be fine with, seeing as safer Sol = better Sol to me.

Fairly certain if you read your first posts again, you will notice you could have elaborated and worded several points much better.

I admit, I need a bit more practice writing.  It doesn't help that this quote system is absolute ass either, or I'd retort better instead of condensing down to make up for the ridiculous amount of time I'm spending replying to you guys.
 

That and let's be honest, some comments are hilarious.
I mean come on, ZEUS INSTALL !!
If he got Last Edguy and give as much fuck as Raoh, I would drop Elphelt for Ky right away hahahaha

 I thought that shit was hilarious too.  Some of this ridicule is just wildly entertaining, though I think it was more based on the number of changes I made rather than the actual changes themselves, seeing as they really didn't put forth any input on them. 

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

I dunno where insane "rushdown" is coming from (that's something I'd give to Sol, Chipp, or Millia), and I figure you mean Faust's "mixup"; Faust's air movement is poor, and his running movement isn't super speedy or anything.  He's a character who fares better staying put, generally, hence his FD momentum stopping being a strong tool as it keeps him IN PLACE.  Faust needs to control the screen SO he can move into his mixup game.  To do that, he needs to throw out strong normals to keep people away/rushing him down too hard.  Generally, without RC or good CH reads, this does not lead to much damage.  Really, what he wants it to lead into is a good situation, where he gets a hit and the opponent is forced to react to an item on the screen, making up for his lesser movement through screen control.  

Replace Sol with Leo and I'll take your word for it at point blank.  And no, I meant his rushdown.  Playing against and watching many Faust players play, there seems to be very little in the way of safe options of getting him off of you.  Not only is it that only a split second is needed for him to have the screen advantage to get in for free, but his moves are made safe due to the quick recovery of his item toss, or going my way.  I don't care how random his item tosses are, the fact that he uses that move is an advantage for him, unless a candy bar/donut comes out, and considering the amount of items he can toss, there's not much chance of that happening. 

- He's got screen control

- Awesome recovery

- Hellride rushdown on cornered opponents

- All the benefits of a character who can reach across the entire screen with very little of the drawbacks (hurtbox bullshit)

- The ability to interrupt the opponent's offensive during their rightfully earned turn for spanking.

- 5 anti airs.  Standing kick, crouching kick, forward punch, and even dust.  He can even crawl, wait for landing recovery and throw the opponent.  Ridiculous.

 

With all this, why is there any question as to why he's top tier?  Why aren't more people complaining about him?

 

If Faust did not have screen control, there's little reason for an opponent to gorilla their way through to him while he's trying to throw out an item, because then there's no fear of Faust actually doing anything worthwhile.  Faust's ability to rushdown, mixup, and damage is not strong enough to carry him as a character in XRD.  His normals/chains are slow by comparison and may leave him at disadvantage, have mashable gaps, extend his hurtbox to be punished, or push the opponent out some to try and keep himself safe.  Faust is about doing things safely as possible while forcing his opponent to move and not himself, so long as you do safe things.  His reward for hitting properly isn't as great as other characters damage wise, but he'll get single, strong hits more often.  He's akin to Dhalsim of Street Fighter.  Keep opponent out until a good situation arises.  Get in and have one or two good shots at strong mixup tools.  If you hit it, great!  If you don't, ruh roh....

 

My problem isn't with him being able to keep opponent's off him through the use of his items (which to me, seems to be the main problem).  My problem comes in when that screen control just lets him waltz right up to you for free - hence why I think little faust should peace out halfway through the screen.  He can already hit you on the way down, but he also serves as a slow moving projectile that lets Faust act as wild as he wants to for as long as he's there.  He's got like 5 anti airs, and that's just no fuckin good.

 

Faust lacks defense, hence his whole game is based around avoiding that situation IF you play with smart/good actions.  He can block, of course, and alpha counter (whatever it's called in guilty lol) with a blind spot above his head that's far more abuse-able when Faust is in the corner.  He has his Cup super which requires 50 meter, a grounded opponent, a big enough move from the opponent to invlun through, and STILL some good luck as the opponent has a chance to get out.  It's not 100% reliable or useful, though it's not terrible by any means.  He has his crawl which sacrifices his ability to defend for the chance to avoid attacks with his lower hurtbox.  There's Dust (YRC) which is tricky but loses to throw and meatier attacks.  Once again, Faust is just based off good decision making at the right times.  I will agree that his hurtbox, while being combo'd, should be normalized more.  Then again for some characters, it leads to extra damage.  So I guess it's what the character makes of it.

Hopefully you mean defense raiting, because he has everything he needs to deal with pressure of all sorts.  And about the hurtbox thing....  Well, that was their design choice.  Don't make a big character if you can't hit them.  It's better than making a character deceptively smaller than he appears on the screen.

 

Faust plays to pressing the right button(s) at very specific right times.  He needs reliable moves in most, but specific, situations to make up for his inconsistent item throws.  If you were to extend his, already pretty large, hurtboxes then he'd be less making actively good decisions and more playing scared/defensively/hoping for good item luck.  Normals in the wrong situation can be beat (f.S against a ready opponent can lead to getting 6P, Pilebunker, VV, Ky's Slip & Slide, etc punishing it from full range with CH) and if you, as an opponent, DON'T end up beating it, the result?  Taking some damage and Faust gaining some control with item (assuming no meter usage), pretty much not the end of the world, just returning closer-to-neutral.  Other characters fight more for damage/oki, Faust fights for spacing and control.  When he wins that, he gets more options to add to his game plans, such as mix up, damage (which is still mediocre generally, but far more consistent than other characters).  All the same, it can be taken away and he's in his worst situation of defending.

BRUH

 

Faust IS strong when things are (hehehe) Going His Way.  He's a strong, fundamental-based character.  You take away his reliable-per-situation normals and he'll lose his ability to throw items, have a reliable gameplan between items, and his general ability to gain control.  The reason items work for him is because if it's a bad item, he STILL has options.

I think the problem is that he has a little too much "going his way".  While I don't want to make Faust any less fun for Faust players to play, I think he DOES deserve to eat as much shit as he dishes out, and that scale seems unbalanced in his favor, hence why he's able to rank so high in the tiers.

[Kikuichimonji]

How you get Faust off you: you FD and crouch block. He will push himself out.

Now, he probably is at advantage at that father range still because he's Faust, but he's way easier to get off you than half the cast like Leo, I-no, Ky, Potemkin, or Venom.

There's no perfectly safe way to get him off you, and that's totally fair because his offense is solid but not overwhelming. Block 6H on reaction and Faust has to work pretty hard to force offense on you.

[Naka]

Saw this hilarious topic on twitter. Really worths the time I spent reading 4 pages. Now I will try to contribute to this funny little thing with my shitty limited English(It really is, so excuse me).

Let's me just talk about Faust and Sol in general. I'm a player from XX era, didn't play AC since I don't like AC gameplay, comeback with Xrd. I play Sol as my main for about 7 years and switch to main Faust in 2013, just before Xrd. The reason was in my scene, there are like over 10 ppl that play Sol, at least 3 of them are better than me with sub Sol. And there is no delicated Faust player. So I tried to convert, and here I am. I try to justify all the stuffs that come later, bear with me.

Faust and Sol are strong and probably as strong as each other in XrdS 1.1 / XrDR. ASW amplify the gameplan of both to new height and they can compete evenly with the ever-top tier character Eddie - ZATO-1 and Millia, also the ***-tier newcomer Elphelt.

    - He's got screen control

Faust was create to play screen control. Take it away you ruin the base of his characteristic. How about a Sol that can't dash / have a hopping dash instead and no DP? Awesome Recovery is cool if he got the longest start up frames ever for all of his normal moves (yes, in this regard he is the slowest character in the cast. His punch moves are slower than even Potemkin, and that guy is a grappler). Not to mention he doesn't got ton of frame advantages going along with his move, Sol does btw.

- Hellride rushdown on cornered opponents

His rushdown is one of the weakest in  the game. You watch any of Nage or Kiisha's  stuff? Their rushdown is strong because they are Nage and Kiisha. Point out a character that have a worse rushdown game. Actually just do that. I look at the whole roster for 10 freaking minutes still can't get one. Nowaday even May got a better rushdown game, and even Axl Low has his YRC ransengeki into shenanigans. 6HS as an overhead is a joke, FDC j.K is noticeable (remember, Millia's TK Badmoon is faster and there is no sign whatsoever. FDC j.K mostly hit as a counter hit or need heavy mind games. And it's not the easiest to convert into damage. And a fucking technical move to do well). His command throw is weaker than others (since it's only a semi command throw) and his dash speed is slow. So that's it. He got a lot of options, and nothing is at top of the foodchain. So no. His rushdown is normal. This is really hilarious come out from a Sol player. I mean, his rushdown is one of the best.

- All the benefits of a character who can reach across the entire screen with very little of the drawbacks (hurtbox bullshit)

And Axl Low actually did "All the benefits of a character who can reach across the entire screen with very little of the drawbacks (hurtbox bullshit)" much better. A Faust with out footsie is a dead Faust, an Axl Low without footsie is a god damn Tower of Death. People already pointed out how f.S and rerere is counterable, I don't need to venture into that more. 

- The ability to interrupt the opponent's offensive during their rightfully earned turn for spanking.

How? and Why? I mean. This guy have like the worst defensive options in this game. Ever. Everybody got more invincible frames moves than he is. His normal is slow af. So hard to abare and second slowest jump start up. Just how? Crawling ain't do shit, it's just the same when other people got their own low profile moves and 5D YRC cost tension, good read and very risky. His shitty defense was created to balance out all the advantage he got already in neutral game (long strong pokes, items...) so it's fine. 

   - 5 anti airs.  Standing kick, crouching kick, forward punch, and even dust.  He can even crawl, wait for landing recovery and throw the opponent.  Ridiculous.

Just the other day when I told peeps: I wish I could have less anti-air yet more useful. Many anti-air moves, each are so different to another mean more to learn, mean harder to play well. Either you play against / watch good Faust or you're a bad player. Sol's j.S beat Faust's 5K, 2K, 6P, crawling, safe against then punish 5D. And most character got something similar to Sol's j.S. Those anti-air moves are there to stop you from doing stupid things which a decent  player should not do. Like a wild bandit bringer, or random jump-in. If you can do these stuff and nothing can counter, then THAT is hilarious. Again, ton of anti-air doesn't mean ton of advantage, it's that mean this character have many anti-air moves, learn each and how to use them at the right moment.

 My problem comes in when that screen control just lets him waltz right up to you for free - hence why I think little faust should peace out halfway through the screen.  He can already hit you on the way down, but he also serves as a slow moving projectile that lets Faust act as wild as he wants to for as long as he's there

 

Really? So Ino's note should be this too. And Millia's orb should disappear when I hit her. They are too good of a projectile. Considered chibi Faust come out like 10% of the time and Faust need to keep a really good spacing game to throw so many items to get chibi Faust when he really need it, this is fair. And how the hell do you think spacing is easier than runing in and wreaking havoc? All those screen control you mentioned we Faust players delicated most of our times learning and still got rekt by the like of Sol, Millia, ZATO-1, Elphelt. It's easier to just learn to do a 200 damage combo off a random strong move. 

 

 

Hopefully you mean defense raiting, because he has everything he needs to deal with pressure of all sorts.  And about the hurtbox thing....  Well, that was their design choice.  Don't make a big character if you can't hit them.  It's better than making a character deceptively smaller than he appears on the screen.

This must be joke. A player who play the character with one of the best defensive options tell how a Faust have strong defense. And I think you was mistaking defense with neutral - defensive neutral in this case. They are very different. Funny. A Sol player in my scene really like to play against me because "Faust is the easiest character to juggle with as a Sol, and that make me more comfortable than playing against a Millia anyday".

I think the problem is that he has a little too much "going his way".  While I don't want to make Faust any less fun for Faust players to play, I think he DOES deserve to eat as much shit as he dishes out, and that scale seems unbalanced in his favor, hence why he's able to rank so high in the tiers.

He DOES eat as much shit and he can dishes out. Sometimes even more. He is a strong character, and that's fair, characters in GG supposed to be really strong and crazy. He rank so high in the tiers because for some reason top players here and there play him. You guys in US lose to ElvenShadow because he is overall one of the best players there. People in Japan lose to Nage because he is a top tier player there. He is a well made and well balanced character since 1.1 and with plenty of pros and cons going around. Sol also is. Stop being biased. 

 Like this

 

•  

Edited September 9, 2015 by Naka

[mAc Chaos]

Please don't spam the thread with empty hit-and-run style posts, it doesn't add anything and just encourages the thread quality to drop.

So far I've been enjoying everyone breaking down all of the moves and logic here, it's actually very informative.

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

Oh lord, I kinda knew what to expect when I saw the Jin avatar.....  D:

 

His rushdown is one of the weakest in  the game. You watch any of Nage or Kiisha's  stuff?

Their rushdown is strong because they are Nage and Kiisha

 Like this

 

•  

Yeah dude, you kinda just ruined any point you could've had by saying that.  Like they bring out magical properties that aren't present during other's playing that character or something.  The fact is it's there.  If they can do it, then theoretically anyone can.  It's an option.  A tool for use.  One that's available for everyone who plays Faust.  While they are committed to their character, I can imagine just how fast they'd pick up another main if Faust actually sucked.  I'm pretty sure half is personal preference, the other half is that the character actually is that damn good.

Not going to really address much else for right now, (I skimmed and couldn't understand some of what I was reading anyway), I was talking generally about Faust and not from specifically Sol's point of view. 

Edited September 9, 2015 by Sol Badguy Z AC

[Naka]

Oh lord, I kinda knew what to expect when I saw the Jin avatar.....  D:

 

Yeah dude, you kinda just ruined any point you could've had by saying that.  Like they bring out magical properties that aren't present during other's playing that character or something.  The fact is it's there.  If they can do it, then theoretically anyone can.  It's an option.  A tool for use.  One that's available for everyone who plays Faust.  While they are committed to their character, I can imagine just how fast they'd pick up another main if Faust actually sucked.  I'm pretty sure half is personal preference, the other half is that the character actually is that damn good.

Not going to really address much else for right now, (I skimmed and couldn't understand some of what I was reading anyway), I was talking generally about Faust and not from specifically Sol's point of view. 

The Jin avatar  was around CS time when we thought GG is dead and need to  play another game. I don't even care about BB now though D:. AND I don't care about my avatar anymore, my twitter avatar is a hammer lol. If my avatar here is misleading then I will beg your pardon. I'm lazy and I'm not active enough in dustloop.com to change it.

Truthfully, I don't want to make it looks like Faust is weak. I play a character because I like the playstyle and I love to prove the character is the strongest actually. I want to say the tools are not braindead to use, and it's fair to have those tools since Faust already has other drawback. I don't know if Faust is easy to pick up or not. Hell I use as many as 2 years to kinda get my FDC out properly, that including switching over stick(I was playing on keyboard / hitbox originally). What I know is Sol is easy to pick up to the point anybody sub a Sol. So we have rule similar to Japanese in our scene: character lock in tournament. A Potemkin/Slayer will try the best to improve their gameplan instead of sub a Sol to beat Ky / Faust / Venom / Whatever. I pick up Faust at #R and I believe most know Sol was stronger then. At that moment nobody heard a thing about XRD anyway. I love playing Faust because of all the random stuff and the amount of footsie / spacing that's pretty damn rare in an airdash game. I don't know for US players but here we don't play accordingly to tier list. We just love to read, review, analyze, sometimes become depressed over a nerf or celebrate when our character's tier go up. In Xrd Era we got players switch from Ky to Ramlethal (and he only did recently  when 1.1 come out lol),  a Millia convert into I-no, a Sol into Sin. I believe when we can't find a character we really love but still want to play, we just stick around with simple character like Sol / Ky until we do. I believe Faust is balanced as he is right now, it's the players that made him so high on the tier list. Also your first sentence now that I read it again. Every character is the same you know. Your Sol's rushdown probably look something. Machaboo or Mugen's rushdown look terrific. It's just theoretically true. Rushdown have more than just setplay. It includes mind game. Mind game is not a character's tool. It's a player's weapon. Very different.

Thankfully you  stop talk from Sol's point of view because I have enough  of that. New players start with Sol complain about almost everything and I can't explain anything better than just play the game with them more.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Naka

[Ryyudo]

Replace Sol with Leo and I'll take your word for it at point blank.  And no, I meant his rushdown.  Playing against and watching many Faust players play, there seems to be very little in the way of safe options of getting him off of you.  Not only is it that only a split second is needed for him to have the screen advantage to get in for free, but his moves are made safe due to the quick recovery of his item toss, or going my way.  I don't care how random his item tosses are, the fact that he uses that move is an advantage for him, unless a candy bar/donut comes out, and considering the amount of items he can toss, there's not much chance of that happening.

Blocking him.  Blocking him is literally the safe option of getting him off you.  Faust either has to try to reset the situation (which means a punishable or forced-to-block gap) or using a move that will push the opponent back (i.e. thrust).  Faust does not "Rushdown" he "Controls".  They may seem like one in the same, but you won't see many Fausts go in without some kind of item in play or knockdown because it is high risk to do so.  

 

Also, you can't really say "You don't care it's random" and then consider it only as an advantage even though the random can still mess with him as you literally point out in the same sentence.  I'm not a fan of Helium close up or Spring if it flies off screen into the corner.  It's not always an advantage; Faust, as much as his opponent, needs to react to the item situation.

 

Going my Way, on block, isn't safe unless he lands before the full extension of it.  It's not heavily punishable either; I, and most people I play, usually just throw it.

- He's got screen control

- Awesome recovery

- Hellride rushdown on cornered opponents

- All the benefits of a character who can reach across the entire screen with very little of the drawbacks (hurtbox bullshit)

- The ability to interrupt the opponent's offensive during their rightfully earned turn for spanking.

- 5 anti airs.  Standing kick, crouching kick, forward punch, and even dust.  He can even crawl, wait for landing recovery and throw the opponent.  Ridiculous.

I'll break this down part by part

- Screen control; yes.  Coupled with mediocre/random rushdown, the ability to run in at an opponent, and close up pressure. Also, meh defensive options.

- Awesome recovery; Slow/risky startups.

- "Rushdown" on cornered opponents; the need for a mid-screen combo or poke-pressure to get them there successfully.

- "All the benefits" "hurtbox bullshit"; I keep saying it, Faust has his own share hurtbox "issues".  I dunno what makes you not want to acknowledge this from DaiAndOh and myself?  Go into training mode and play around against his thrust.  Sol should be able to 6P it, VV it, Grand Viper under it, Gunflame it, and 2D just to dodge it, all when the thrust is incoming.  Theory crafting, you may be able to 5K it also?  His hurtbox is out there, many characters have options as long as they have the read and the bravery to capitalize (Slayer can 6P, sure, but bravery will result them in Pilebunkering it instead)

-"Ability to interrupt the opponent's offensive during their rightfully earned turn for spanking" 

I'm gonna have to ask for clarification on what you mean there.  Outside of item, I dunno how he "interrupts" anything the opponent "rightfully" earned

- "5 Anti airs"; Maybe (6P, 5K, 2K, 2S, 5P?) , but they're meant to handle various situations to control space, each with their own risk/reward/use.  Really, Sol's divekick AND Elphelt's air Bridal Express is an answer to pretty much all of these as it can be used to bait these options out, keyword: "bait".  If Faust is baited, the game becomes scarier and riskier.  Dust though?  That's...that's not an anti-air....  Crawl is a switch on risk/reward.  Can dodge, but can't block.  It's useful for predictable moves/players, but it's a risk otherwise because Faust walks himself into possible danger.

 

 

With all this, why is there any question as to why he's top tier?  Why aren't more people complaining about him?

As far as I see it, no one is arguing his tier; we all know he's top but not best.  No one complains about him as much because he's "honest".  He doesn't have many (controllable) gimmicks, and you have to play smart and well to get the most out of each of his normals.  Being willy-nilly with his normals means either the start-up frames will get stuffed extended start-up hurtboxes will get stuffed, which is how you have to play against Faust.  He's less reactionary and more predictive on what move you think he'll do next, and then punishing BEFORE instead of AFTER.  Faust's moves don't MAKE you lose, they capitalize on small, often frustrating, mistakes.

My problem isn't with him being able to keep opponent's off him through the use of his items (which to me, seems to be the main problem).  My problem comes in when that screen control just lets him waltz right up to you for free - hence why I think little faust should peace out halfway through the screen.  He can already hit you on the way down, but he also serves as a slow moving projectile that lets Faust act as wild as he wants to for as long as he's there.  He's got like 5 anti airs, and that's just no fuckin good.

If a Faust is "waltzing right up for free" because Mini-Faust is on the screen, you might need to react more as a player.  If you're too busy trying to block Mini-Faust from x-screen away, maybe change your actions.  I'd assume most Fausts will travel somewhat near Mini-Faust, who is not very fast, which gives you some time to try something.  Also, Sol can gunflame mini-Faust from about that halfway point.  You just need to make the magic happen with your own options.  Buy time and space with backdashes, hit it with a projectile, teleport through it, super armor through it.  If the Faust is running in brainlessly, throw out a far reaching normal to test their reactions, as they'll have to FD cancel their run to block it.  Mini-Faust is fine.  It's a different kind of pressure.  If it died half screen, the Faust would have little reason to move in the first place.  Especially from midscreen, it's still a hurdle for Faust to make it that remaining half screen if he wishes to get in and get real damage/mixup.  The risk, IMO, is too high and the Faust would probably rather just wait for a bomb or meteor, as it's pretty much the only items left that will invoke fear into a opponent long enough to go in behind.

 

Hopefully you mean defense raiting, because he has everything he needs to deal with pressure of all sorts.  And about the hurtbox thing....  Well, that was their design choice.  Don't make a big character if you can't hit them.  It's better than making a character deceptively smaller than he appears on the screen.

I feel as if there's a misunderstanding.  His hurtbox actually gets him OUT of combos because it's so strangely shaped or whatever.  He IS deceptively smaller (or at least weirder) than he appears on the screen.  I think this IS unfair that Faust gets out of some combos for free.  It seems silly to me that players have to learn how to specifically combo on him arbitrarily. 

 

He does technically have everything he needs: Blocking.  Every character has blocking because that's technically all one needs.  Unfortunately, by comparison, it's MOST of what makes Faust's defense.  All his other defenses cover few options and require good reads/predictions, instead of having options that covers 2/3rds of the opponent's options (i.e. DPs, Backdashes).

 

 

BRUH

I don't know what you're getting at.

 

 

I think the problem is that he has a little too much "going his way".  While I don't want to make Faust any less fun for Faust players to play, I think he DOES deserve to eat as much shit as he dishes out, and that scale seems unbalanced in his favor, hence why he's able to rank so high in the tiers.

I agree in the sense of his combo hurtbox that he should "eat as much shit as he dishes out".  Otherwise, the smarter the player, the better the reward, and the harder it is for the opponent with ANY character.  Faust has his good and bad, but his good really shines in the hand of a patient/smart player who uses his ranges well and uses proper moves per every situation.  Hence why people don't necessarily complain about Faust because losing to him much means they got outplayed by good fundamentals multiple times.  Not that they messed up once and took 60% damage into strong, or unblockable, oki.

[Pichy]

I feel as if there's a misunderstanding.  His hurtbox actually gets him OUT of combos because it's so strangely shaped or whatever.  He IS deceptively smaller (or at least weirder) than he appears on the screen.  I think this IS unfair that Faust gets out of some combos for free.  It seems silly to me that players have to learn how to specifically combo on him arbitrarily.

While some of the usual light-weight routes don't work on Faust, his janky aerial hurtbox often allows for way better things to replace them. Shortly after Xrd hit consoles I made a video with some rather crappy examples to get the idea in people's heads. Even from there you can see that the rewards for opening up a grounded Faust can lead to things like meterless/grenadeless Rifle Unblockables, Nobiru tech traps and from memory Vapour Thrust loop. In AC+R Potemkin's special cancellable sweep meant he got Heatgrab on a grounded Faust.

[Naka]

 

While some of the usual light-weight routes don't work on Faust, his janky aerial hurtbox often allows for way better things to replace them. Shortly after Xrd hit consoles I made a video with some rather crappy examples to get the idea in people's heads. Even from there you can see that the rewards for opening up a grounded Faust can lead to things like meterless/grenadeless Rifle Unblockables, Nobiru tech traps and from memory Vapour Thrust loop. In AC+R Potemkin's special cancellable sweep meant he got Heatgrab on a grounded Faust.

This is what I want to tell. You can't hit Faust the same way you hit other char. You have this specific way to deal dam to him with much better result. AND SOME PEOPLE TELL ME IT'S UNFAIR FOR FAUST'S HURTBOX TO BE ASS. Stop play auto-pilot, think before doing a combo. How hard could it be? You don't complain about May or Potemkin because of their weight yet you can always complain about Faust being float, which his art / modeling show he is.

I still remember how many characters with sweep jump cancel into full damage combo against Faust. The upcoming Jam will hurt his tier list position a lot if they do her justice.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Naka

[Coffeeling]

- The ability to interrupt the opponent's offensive during their rightfully earned turn for spanking.

I'm really amused by a Sol player complaining about Faust's defense. You say Faust has that ability. Let's see what he can do:

5P becomes active on the 6th frame, slow jump startup. The rest are basic universal mechanics like pushblock and dead angle that anyone can do.

Now, Sol?

5K is active on the 3rd frame, full extension on the 5th, Sol has a DP. Both 5P and 2P are 4f startup.

 

The 6f 5P is the fastest Faust can get anything out, everything else is at least 7f. Sol has, what, 4 buttons faster than that, and 1-2 that are as fast.

 

Someone also has not looked at the frame data at all. You say Faust's recovery is short on his normals thanks to item toss. Newsflash: The only moves whose recovery canceling into item toss shortens are 2H (not appreciably, by 2f or so) and 6H, where canceling actually cuts it in half, but we're talking about 6H here. You can see and react to the startup because it's so slow and 6H xx item is still -13 or something - you have ample time to defend whatever shenanigans Faust decides to try next.

All those f.S xx item is longer than f.S alone, and f.S alone is already -8. Item cancel adds about 5 frames to that.

5P is +2, but that's with 6 frames of recovery. What do you think it will be with 23 instead? We're at -15 or something.

Nage uses 2S xx item often. Safe? Fuck no. 2S alone is -7 on block and canceling into item makes it -18.

That is what Naka meant when he says that stuff works because they're Nage and Kiisha. The opponent has no objective reason to respect any of that, they do it because they're scared or just can't react to it. Faust's pressure works because of the player, it's not objectively hard to challenge, let alone defend. You want to see pressure that's just objectively hard to get out of, see Sol, Elphelt and Zato. You want okizeme that's objectively hard to get out of, see Zato, Elphelt, Millia.

[Kikuichimonji]

I'm really amused by a Sol player complaining about Faust's defense. You say Faust has that ability. Let's see what he can do:

5P becomes active on the 6th frame, slow jump startup. The rest are basic universal mechanics like pushblock and dead angle that anyone can do.

Now, Sol?

5K is active on the 3rd frame, full extension on the 5th, Sol has a DP. Both 5P and 2P are 4f startup.

 

The 6f 5P is the fastest Faust can get anything out, everything else is at least 7f. Sol has, what, 4 buttons faster than that, and 1-2 that are as fast.

 

Someone also has not looked at the frame data at all. You say Faust's recovery is short on his normals thanks to item toss. Newsflash: The only moves whose recovery canceling into item toss shortens are 2H (not appreciably, by 2f or so) and 6H, where canceling actually cuts it in half, but we're talking about 6H here. You can see and react to the startup because it's so slow and 6H xx item is still -13 or something - you have ample time to defend whatever shenanigans Faust decides to try next.

All those f.S xx item is longer than f.S alone, and f.S alone is already -8. Item cancel adds about 5 frames to that.

5P is +2, but that's with 6 frames of recovery. What do you think it will be with 23 instead? We're at -15 or something.

Nage uses 2S xx item often. Safe? Fuck no. 2S alone is -7 on block and canceling into item makes it -18.

That is what Naka meant when he says that stuff works because they're Nage and Kiisha. The opponent has no objective reason to respect any of that, they do it because they're scared or just can't react to it. Faust's pressure works because of the player, it's not objectively hard to challenge, let alone defend. You want to see pressure that's just objectively hard to get out of, see Sol, Elphelt and Zato. You want okizeme that's objectively hard to get out of, see Zato, Elphelt, Millia.

You're ignoring some of Faust's best defensive options, which are invincible 5D (which can be YRC'd), very floaty jump (with amazing air attacks like j.K, j.2K, and j.H to discourage half-hearted challenges), very fast upper body invincibility on 6P, the ability to crawl underneath many moves like Ky fireballs, and great range on 2P to safely contest "false" pressure.

Also good players don't just respect Nage's pressure because they're scared of him. 2S 2H gatling is a thing you can do to catch people anticipating an item toss after 2S. Item toss adds a whopping TWO frames of recovery to f.S in Xrd and usually nobody has anything fast enough to take control when they're +10 at half screen (even if you do, you're praying Faust didn't get a hammer).

Faust's ability to just throw moves out safely at half screen is extremely strong, which is completely fine because that's how the character works. He doesn't get big reward off hits and his actual 50/50 options are real but limited to a few safer, relatively slow options or extremely risky gambits. Faust-offense "works" for the same reason Ky works: if you defend he's still ahead at neutral with superior pokes, so he can be a little greedy with forcing you to block a lot. He doesn't need to force an all-or-nothing offensive if he gets a knockdown, like say Potemkin.

As Leo, you basically just let Faust do Faust things because he has to hit you twice as many times to match you. Faust is slippery, but you can win if you match him blow for blow just because you do more damage and Faust can't snowball unless he gets perfect items.

[greatfernman]

very fast upper body invincibility on 6P

Id just like to say every 6P has f1 upper body invul (except elphelt because she has no invul)

[Kikuichimonji]

Id just like to say every 6P has f1 upper body invul (except elphelt because she has no invul)

Yes that's true but Faust's is very nice especially because his 6P is fast, hits pretty low, hits very high up, and has good horizontal range. Usually it can at least trade with anything that's not a low, and sometimes he can combo on trade.

[greatfernman]

yeah i wasn't saying anything except that the upper body invul isn't any faster than any other 6P

i'm not questioning it's godliness

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

Sorry for taking so long to respond people.  I really don't like the quote system here.  I'll get around to it shortly.

[Naka]

Faust's 6P is super fast (fastest of all 6P) with very high and far hit box (large in both horizontal and vertical range) but does come with a built in drawback: the small invul frames for a 6P(that use like a real 6P anti-air, not the Elphelt's kind)  and one of the most unsafe one if ever baited(small active frames, large recovery frames, highly disadvantage on block).

I don't deny its power, just want to say as everything, it comes with built in drawback. 

P.S: I double check. There is one 6P that look really worse in all regards: Axl Low. That's why Axl defense with his uppercut and sometime 2S, not 6P I guess.

You're ignoring some of Faust's best defensive options, which are invincible 5D (which can be YRC'd), very floaty jump (with amazing air attacks like j.K, j.2K, and j.H to discourage half-hearted challenges), very fast upper body invincibility on 6P, the ability to crawl underneath many moves like Ky fireballs, and great range on 2P to safely contest "false" pressure.

Let's me just say this. 5D YRC cost tension with 10 frames invul, many other chars have better tool than that, and Faust stuck with this. The floaty jump is great indeed, but what does it has to do with defense? 6P is superb for a good abare with really good read, which is as hard as it sounds. Crawling is the same as floaty jump, it's a movement option and that's a neutral tool, not defensive one. 2P range look great for a 2P, but when you really think about it, with the same start up frames at 7, other chars got 2K or 2S for more dam, similar range. They are just too ignorant and spam 2P instead for abare, and that sucks.

I don't know how come you guys still mistake defense for neutral. When you're attacked it defense. When both are on a neutral frames, regardless of advantage in range, that is neutral. Neutral can be offensive or defensive depend on the character's gameplan. Defensive neutral(Use your moves/ movement to get around a disadvantage position)  is different from defense (which mean block, DA, invul frames moves to get out of defense, sometimes a good jump out when there is open frames, sometimes burst, blitz and finally abare)

Edited September 10, 2015 by Naka

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

Blocking him.  Blocking him is literally the safe option of getting him off you.  Faust either has to try to reset the situation (which means a punishable or forced-to-block gap) or using a move that will push the opponent back (i.e. thrust).  Faust does not "Rushdown" he "Controls".  They may seem like one in the same, but you won't see many Fausts go in without some kind of item in play or knockdown because it is high risk to do so.

You're either forgetting how much shenanegans he gets off of shorthops, air drills and low altitude GMW, or you're thinking about the way YOU play him.  I don't want to sit there blocking all day, nor do I think blitzing is all that safe an option - you see, gaps in pressure aren't necessarily a bad thing, they're definitely not a concern when your character leaves very little room between gaps to attack them effectively.  Damn near every Faust player I've ever seen keeps their opponent cornered far longer than any expert Sol player - and keeping someone stuck in a single spot for a quite a while is something I consider rushdown.  Let us not confuse rushdown for lockdown, something Zato is known for.  Also, don't forget that he's got a command grab, one that I don't want to see the results of with a high or maxed out risc meter.

Also, you can't really say "You don't care it's random" and then consider it only as an advantage even though the random can still mess with him as you literally point out in the same sentence.  I'm not a fan of Helium close up or Spring if it flies off screen into the corner.  It's not always an advantage; Faust, as much as his opponent, needs to react to the item situation.

And why can't I?  The fact is, that he gets anywhere from 8 - 15 item tosses per round if he's playing effectively, and throwing out the items when properly spaced or using enough variations in his attacks to deter punish attempts sees that he's very safe and involves little risk when on the offensive.  While I agree with you that certain items can totally screw him up as much as they do his opponents, he's got more useful items than he does trashy, counterproductive ones.

Going my Way, on block, isn't safe unless he lands before the full extension of it.  It's not heavily punishable either; I, and most people I play, usually just throw it.

Most..... scratch that, all of the time when he uses GMW, it's at a low altitude so that he DOES land to cancel out his vulnerability.  Are you saying that you can air throw it, however?  Pretty sure that doesn't matter though, it's usually canceled from another attack.

- Screen control; yes.  Coupled with mediocre/random rushdown, the ability to run in at an opponent, and close up pressure. Also, meh defensive options.

His pressure is crazy.  I don't know what you're talking about.

- Awesome recovery; Slow/risky startups.

Never seen anyone get full punishes off of him doing anything that they didn't anticipate before hand.  From full screen, maybe a forward punch puts him in his place.  But in your face?  Ain't a safe option to get rid of his ass.

- "Rushdown" on cornered opponents; the need for a mid-screen combo or poke-pressure to get them there successfully.

 Which he'll get from several of his ridiculously usefull item tosses.  It doesn't matter which, so long as they get him a knockdown or have them back themselves into a corner because he's poking them and anti airing them every time they attempt to jump in.  And as of a few hours ago, I found out that he can actually use forward hardslash for a 6th anti air (video of Nage vs Kazunoko).  WOW.

- "All the benefits" "hurtbox bullshit"; I keep saying it, Faust has his own share hurtbox "issues".  I dunno what makes you not want to acknowledge this from DaiAndOh and myself?  Go into training mode and play around against his thrust.  Sol should be able to 6P it, VV it, Grand Viper under it, Gunflame it, and 2D just to dodge it, all when the thrust is incoming.  Theory crafting, you may be able to 5K it also?  His hurtbox is out there, many characters have options as long as they have the read and the bravery to capitalize (Slayer can 6P, sure, but bravery will result them in Pilebunkering it instead)

That is NOT an instance of a hurtbox issue.  That's a built in drawback to using thrust as a move.  Name some combos that he has that are prone to missing against a character simply because his hitbox doesn't touch their hurtbox despite the fact that his image is clearly touching the opponent, and we'll talk.  I still see expert players going for juggles and missing despite the fact that they know the matchup.

 

-"Ability to interrupt the opponent's offensive during their rightfully earned turn for spanking" 

I'm gonna have to ask for clarification on what you mean there.  Outside of item, I dunno how he "interrupts" anything the opponent "rightfully" earned

 Well of course I meant the item tosses.  He gets them out as often as he's in neutral, so the moment they expire, he just throws out another one.

- "5 Anti airs"; Maybe (6P, 5K, 2K, 2S, 5P?) , but they're meant to handle various situations to control space, each with their own risk/reward/use.  Really, Sol's divekick AND Elphelt's air Bridal Express is an answer to pretty much all of these as it can be used to bait these options out, keyword: "bait".  If Faust is baited, the game becomes scarier and riskier.  Dust though?  That's...that's not an anti-air....  Crawl is a switch on risk/reward.  Can dodge, but can't block.  It's useful for predictable moves/players, but it's a risk otherwise because Faust walks himself into possible danger.

- Dust is an anti air because it's got invulnerability and can be used to turn the opponent's attack into a free combo for him instead.

- I just saw Nage interrupt Sol's dive kick with motherfucking forward hardslash dude.  All I could do was shake my head.

- All anti airs have a semblance of risk to them.  Just because crawl has a risk to it doesn't mean you can't use it to make their anti airs whiff.

Overall though, the fact that he has plenty to work with is NOT anything short of being overkill.

As far as I see it, no one is arguing his tier; we all know he's top but not best.  No one complains about him as much because he's "honest".  He doesn't have many (controllable) gimmicks, and you have to play smart and well to get the most out of each of his normals.  Being willy-nilly with his normals means either the start-up frames will get stuffed extended start-up hurtboxes will get stuffed, which is how you have to play against Faust.  He's less reactionary and more predictive on what move you think he'll do next, and then punishing BEFORE instead of AFTER.  Faust's moves don't MAKE you lose, they capitalize on small, often frustrating, mistakes.

Would I be right in assuming that "honest" means that he's not full of bullshit?  I object to such claims.  He's the only character in the game that can divekick from any height once he leaves the ground.  Not only that, he can cancel the startup of that move into a block to make a shorthop safejump, falling back toward the ground instantaneously.  That makes a high low mixup hard to see, not to mention helps his pressure game tremendously.  His useful items make it so that he always gets a chance for a knockdown, while simultaneously (when spaced correctly and varied well enough), makes him safe to all manner of punishment.  He has a GET OVER HERE in friggin Guilty Gear dude.  And a command throw.  The punishments he eats don't quite lead to the deserved damage, and he has a deceptive hitbox.  Honest my ass :P  If anything, people don't realize what exactly is going on and therefore don't know they're being gypped. 

If a Faust is "waltzing right up for free" because Mini-Faust is on the screen, you might need to react more as a player.  If you're too busy trying to block Mini-Faust from x-screen away, maybe change your actions.  I'd assume most Fausts will travel somewhat near Mini-Faust, who is not very fast, which gives you some time to try something.  Also, Sol can gunflame mini-Faust from about that halfway point.  You just need to make the magic happen with your own options.  Buy time and space with backdashes, hit it with a projectile, teleport through it, super armor through it.  If the Faust is running in brainlessly, throw out a far reaching normal to test their reactions, as they'll have to FD cancel their run to block it.  Mini-Faust is fine.  It's a different kind of pressure.  If it died half screen, the Faust would have little reason to move in the first place.  Especially from midscreen, it's still a hurdle for Faust to make it that remaining half screen if he wishes to get in and get real damage/mixup.  The risk, IMO, is too high and the Faust would probably rather just wait for a bomb or meteor, as it's pretty much the only items left that will invoke fear into a opponent long enough to go in behind.

 There's a reason why I don't throw projectiles to get rid of minifaust, and it's the same exact reason top players don't either - they don't want to give faust a free knockdown.  I don't want to jump over it either, giving him yet another chance to get a free knockdown.  The only thing really is to sit back and hope he does something stupid so that I can anticipate and either IAD over there, or blitz him, etc, neither options are all that safe, meanwhile minifaust is still a trottin'.  If it died half screen, boo hoo, he can just go and throw another stupid useful item.

I feel as if there's a misunderstanding.  His hurtbox actually gets him OUT of combos because it's so strangely shaped or whatever.  He IS deceptively smaller (or at least weirder) than he appears on the screen.  I think this IS unfair that Faust gets out of some combos for free.  It seems silly to me that players have to learn how to specifically combo on him arbitrarily. 

So we agree on this

I don't know what you're getting at.

I was simply amused at what you called stun dipper.  I don't think I have a comment on that particular portion though, that I haven't already stated above.

I agree in the sense of his combo hurtbox that he should "eat as much shit as he dishes out".  Otherwise, the smarter the player, the better the reward, and the harder it is for the opponent with ANY character.  Faust has his good and bad, but his good really shines in the hand of a patient/smart player who uses his ranges well and uses proper moves per every situation.  Hence why people don't necessarily complain about Faust because losing to him much means they got outplayed by good fundamentals multiple times.  Not that they messed up once and took 60% damage into strong, or unblockable, oki.

Guilty Gear, and most other Arc systems games have always valued high pressure characters with more chances to attack over those with ridiculous damage, unless that character was getting it for free.  Taking something out of blazblue for a moment (don't know which one, don't bother asking me), it's the reason why Rachel eats Ragna up for free.  She does piddly shit for damage, but who cares, she gets a hell of a lot more opportunities to attack than he does.  Who cares if you can do 80% damage in one combo if you can never get the chance to pull it off?  The fact that Faust can be all over you within a moment's notice because of a stupid gimmick which almost always leads to a knockdown (lol at crawl > cr. punch > cr. D) is more evidence of why he's top.

 

As of this moment, it took roughly 45 minutes to type this reply to you, because addressing your replies using the quote system is that time consuming.  My typing speed is 55 wpm, so yeah, this is quite aggravating.

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

@ COFEELING

I'm really amused by a Sol player complaining about Faust's defense. You say Faust has that ability. Let's see what he can do:

Please bring up something worth my while to address.

 

"5P becomes active on the 6th frame, slow jump startup. The rest are basic universal mechanics like pushblock and dead angle that anyone can do.

Now, Sol?

5K is active on the 3rd frame, full extension on the 5th, Sol has a DP. Both 5P and 2P are 4f startup."

 

What's your point?  Sol's normals also have pretty poor hurtboxes and leave him open.  The first hit of his standing k, the part which has the 3 frame startup, has piss poor range, and the second hit I'm not even sure what the frame on that is.  The problem isn't how fast he can get them out, but more of other reasons as explained above.

"Someone also has not looked at the frame data at all. You say Faust's recovery is short on his normals thanks to item toss. Newsflash: The only moves whose recovery canceling into item toss shortens are 2H (not appreciably, by 2f or so) and 6H, where canceling actually cuts it in half, but we're talking about 6H here. You can see and react to the startup because it's so slow and 6H xx item is still -13 or something - you have ample time to defend whatever shenanigans Faust decides to try next."

You're correct.  I haven't seen the frame data.  But I've addressed this in a previous post, and hell no, I don't WANT to block any more shit from Faust.  I want to get to the point where I actually get back to attacking too.  Everyone does.  I'm not asking for it to be dumb simple, but I damn sure don't expect to have to risk receiving even 30% damage just to get put back into the situation again

Nage uses 2S xx item often. Safe? Fuck no. 2S alone is -7 on block and canceling into item makes it -18.

I don't know about that.  I haven't seem him do it much in the matches I've seen him play.

That is what Naka meant when he says that stuff works because they're Nage and Kiisha. The opponent has no objective reason to respect any of that, they do it because they're scared or just can't react to it. Faust's pressure works because of the player, it's not objectively hard to challenge, let alone defend. You want to see pressure that's just objectively hard to get out of, see Sol, Elphelt and Zato. You want okizeme that's objectively hard to get out of, see Zato, Elphelt, Millia.

And I'm telling you that that argument is horrible garbage, as it's fallacious.  It has absolutely nothing to do with Faust the character, and assumes that everyone that plays those players are aware they're playing those players and are scared of them, for whatever reason.  Faust's pressure works because it's something the character himself can get away with with little risk of taking an ass whooping.  I see people jumping out of Sol pressure all the time, so I have no idea what you're talking about.  Too many gaps in his offense for you to claim there's nothing you can do about it.  Zato and Elphelt, I can agree with you on. 

 

This message took about 10 minutes to type.  Considerable difference.  Would've taken less if my computer wasn't so slow at dealing with this sites interface....

[Blade]

I said this to SBZ in chat, but I think it's warranted here:

It's nice to discuss this stuff and makes people aware of what exists, but keep in mind that balancing characters is about the equivalent of replacing a Toilet Tank: screwing down one side means having to loosen the other side and vice/versa back and forth it goes until both sides are level.

Balance means both sides have to be level and have a chance to win in any given match (Random vs Random is a good example as it forces players to adapt to any character on the spot, like a pop quiz on how familiar they are with said character).  If that chance is reasonable across the board, then they're fine.  If they're in fights where no matter what they try they lose, then you might have issues.

But changing that character even a little bit will have an impact on how other characters interact with that character, so it has to be done carefully (almost like being a surgeon).

Simply put, if the only character you know is Sol, then you won't know what sort of impact he'll have on other characters you aren't familiar with when changes are made to him.  Most of the time, said changes are never really "good" across the board (especially if they are buffs, since buffs end up becoming a detriment to the opponent who is fighting Sol who GOT buffed, unless they themselves got a buff as well, or are able to somehow exploit Sol's buff).  Even if the point was to make Sol stronger, how strong do you want him to be exactly?

You have to draw a line somewhere on how strong characters are supposed to be... otherwise nothing anyone else does to the character you want to be "strong" will be effective and balance goes out the window.

A "fight" in GG is supposed to go either way, even if it's random... that's kinda why Danger Time and Instant Kills exist in the first place, so that even if you suck, you have a chance to win still.

TLDR: If you only main one character, you don't understand how to balance them or other characters.  (Yet another reason why I don't have a main, lol)

[Naka]

Using Nage vs Kazunoko as an example is a joke, mind you. In this current condition of the game, Nage is like 2 or 3 level higher than Kazunoko. I've seen Mugen or Karinchu(Sol of couse) dominated Nage so bad it looks like the match up is 7-3 in Sol's favor. I can actually use the match between Kazunoko and ElvenShadow to counter your argument, but it's silly and I won't play that game with you.  Any poke Faust try to do can get rekt with just 6P, Fafnir or BB. You make it look like Faust's 6H beat Sol's Kudakero ridiculous, how about why did Kazunoko mess up and use Kudakero like that at the first place. Have you seen Sol's 6H beat  Faust's 2H or Ky's 2S? And Sol's Fafnir is a poke, an anti-air, a footsie, a combo, a counter tool. Beat that any move in the game. I don't even think you know that Chipp's divekick can do at any height, can FDC with the same method into a result that actually make a 50-50 situation.  

Keep making Faust look OP while think Sol is really weak in comparison while the tier is the same,(And when Ogawa, Nage or Sharon who actually play top tier characters think it is, it mind as well be) that isn't even on the level of thinking. Consider the match-up of the whole roster, please think before you write, and be level-headed. Also as I know it, Faust vs Sol (since you're still freaking intrigued about this match up or something) it's supposed to be in Faust's favor. Faust got his fair share of bad match-up already,(yeah, like 2-3, he is top tier I know) let's him alone with this one don't you.

Still can't understand Faust's pressure part. Not sure you got rekt hard by a local Faust or a Kazunoko's admirer. Faust shenanigans work twice in a row at best, dealing maybe 200 damage when the players on both side are at the same level of mind game and at that moment the Faust outplay his opponent, that require ton of works from Faust's part. Sol oki into mixup is pure guessing on the defensive side and one knock down can let to totally beatdown the same way as Millia's gameplan. You know that those stuff have nothing with Faust as a character, yet you only see that kind of pressure in Japanese top Faust player, not anywhere else, except if you can point out some decent examples. I doubt you ever know how risky it is to put pressure on another character up close as a slow, long range character. It's safe then it won't work, to make it works you will risk something. Actually you try to earn 120 dam and a knock down by putting yourself in the risk of eating as much as 200 damage and also a knock down. The ability to make it actually works more than not required mindgame. 

This might as well be my last post on this match-up. Look up at the tittle of the topic, there should be room for other characters. Characters that really need a tweak like Potemkin or Ramlethal. Not a top tier character. Let the top tier alone, they are there because they are strong enough with good players to be there. I feel so heavy to persuade a player who I don't even know how good or bad he is, consider think twice about buff a top tier character(a lot).