Suggested Tweaks and Oversights

[Hollysmoke]

... I completely forgot about Bridget. Thanks for reminding me.

But I'm not so sure about Ky though. Isn't the FRC happening just way too late to really be interesting ? I got a pocket Ky in +R because he's mad fun in that version but that's it. Only thought it was pure combo filler.

 

You can also do VT loops in certain situations but the Ky one lets you block on the way down essentially making it safe. S-version is easier to combo with Lightinng Javelin on grounded opponents, so there's some stuff you can do there as well.

EDIT: I honestly can't think of any weaknesses to Bridget DP specifically to justify the FRC, but rather just an overall addition to his much-needed defensive options considering how hard he can get blown up? I guess it never bothered me on Bridget due to other inherent weaknesses he has.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Hollysmoke

[Pichy]

"We want the Justice audience."

If I wanted George Nakata's dick I could go back to mashing Hoaa or Black Keys. It's the large dick on something that is both female and and robot that make hers so special.

EDIT: Starship FRC is fine because Bridget is such a limited character. His options are roughly
1) Hope he scores a knockdown while the Yo-yo's out so he doesn't have to haul ass opening up the opponent and just do Dropbear unblockable.
2) Don't be near the opponent, ever.

He has crap damage, crap health, mediocre pressure without resources or a rare situational advantage and pretty much no knockdowns in the places the rest of the cast get 'em. It's all fair enough since it's hard to make Bridget unique without turning him into another Eddie or CS Litchi, but it's also why it's totally justifiable to give him a circular, multi-hit DP with an FRC. Bridget's a death by thousand cuts character who fully expects to play every round the full 99 seconds.

Cancelling Kickstart My Heart into Yo-yo sure would've been appreciated though...

[Hollysmoke]

Like I said, other inherent weaknesses. Thanks for confirming my thoughts.

 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Hollysmoke

[www.keeponrock.in]

Here's one: GGXXAC+R who got 3 DPs with FRC: Chipp's 623S, Robo-ky's 623H and Zappa's 623H with sword mode.

And HOS DP>charge FRC

[DaiAndOh]

My favorite part is that I gave him a question where GG is the answer (dps on whiff), and he put in a different retort instead. Also Fuujin as well if that counts.

Well I think with the little sleep I got, everything I had to say was covered. Nice work contributors.

Edited September 8, 2015 by DaiAndOh

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I think a lot of the issue here results from a lack of understanding of Xrd's meta. The new RC has such a profound effect on how the game is played. If you watch Sol in AC, you will never see people just doing Bandit Bringer, for example. But with the way YRC works, Sol can literally just do moves and get away with it, because people are too scared of YRC blowing up their planned counters to Sol's telegraphed moveset. Better to block/IB Bandit Bringer and deal with the post game than try to actually counter it and end up being punished after a YRC exposes you.

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

Don't fall into the trap of "I don't see it in the extremely small percentage of total matches in Japan that happen to get released to Youtube, so it must never happen!"

I'd also ask you not fall into a similar trap - one where we assume that just because it can happen that it's viable in all but fluke situations.

Unlike what a great deal many of you may think, I am taking into consideration matches of "better" players than myself, and seeing how often the reliance upon Sol's specials and even normals leads to colossal disappointments.

 

Riot Stamp: This is retarded. This move is really good now, actually far BETTER than previous games. Huge damage on hit in some cases, and completely unpunishable on block. The reward off of it hitting is so high that I think it's fair that the opponent get a decent punish if it trades. Especially if it trades, since that means they were at least able to react in time to you doing it. Making it fly lower is also dumb, and would probably cause it to beat fewer moves.

Geez man, would it kill you to name a few moves that it wouldn't beat anymore?  Anyway, I proposed this change to see it used more often than it is, because at present and at high level, it's pretty much not used at all.

 

Gun Flame: You already get a combo off of this almost every time it hits. With YRC it's insanely powerful, no changes needed.

[Unicron]You exaggerate...[/unicron].  I think it's fair for Sol to get IAD attack > attack > VV when confirming that gunflame has hit without anticipating it.  Unless you can name an example where this untechable time will lead to more than necessary damage and advantages, it seems objectively justified.  I guess it would help if I specified exactly how much untech time I'd be giving it.  Maybe 7.

 

2HS: Just, no. Nobody should have to risk the entire match off of one jump in. 5K is enough. If you're getting beat, learn the spacing. It's not hard.

Okay, you win this one.  Just checked it out in practice mode.  I was under the impression that the opponent could still tech from counterhit cr. HS in Xrd at a certain height that would make Sol unable to do his most damaging combo. 

Bandit Revolver: Making the move hit at the tail end would make the move entirely too good. They'd have to increase the landing recovery to compensate so that you don't get unlimited pressure, which would consequently make the move even worse when blocked standing. Longer YRC window would be cool, but is unnecessary.

Wow dude.  You and I have agreed for the longest time that Bandit revolver should hit people below him when coming back down.  And no, it wouldn't need to be adjusted if they added that in, because the hit contact would be consumed at an earlier point - it's not like the previous hitboxes from the earlier parts of the animation would just disappear, leaving only the fully revolved one.  Regardless, who cares if it leads to massive stun on a crouching opponent?  Anyone in their right minds would just block it high or hit him out of it before it completes.  And even werider still, you're more willing to approve the YRC over that?  Even I thought that the extended YRC window might be pushing it.... D:

 

j.P: Eh, whatever. j.K is the god now, that's probably why they took the gatling away (also to avoid giving oh-so-easy confirms off of air to air hits). Not a big deal.

Not sure I understand you here.  What's so great about canceling a jumping kick into jumping p?  Also, I noticed that j.k can't cancel into j. HS.  That needs to be addressed yesterday.

 

5HS: Good enough as it is. He doesn't actually need yet another strong CH tool. As far as making the hitbox closer to his body, it seems unnecessary, and would look wonky. Seriously, just learn the timing and spacing on his combos, they aren't hard.

I'm not budging on this one.  Standing HS for the longest time in GG had that small little invulnerability on his lower hitbox, and these were games where he could get maximum damage MIDSCREEN.  The fact that it whiffs in front of his face makes extending the hitbox closer to his body a necessity.

 

TR (both normal and DI): These changes are also unnecessary. The DI TR change would just make it absolutely free when blocked to push the other person out, which would be stupid. As far as throw invul, why are you doing TR when VV RC leads to more damage and a mixup on block? There's your throw invul move, use it. =/

On the pushing them out for free.... So what?  I wasted a full bar of meter to get to that point.  And again, the fact that these have such drawbacks justifies the changes fixing them.  If they're so small, or insignificant, why not?

Fafnir: See above. The move is good enough. Learn spacing and timing for your combos. The increased buffer makes these a lot easier than they were in 1.0. Yes, the hitbox means that sometimes it won't hit as high when the opponent is completely in the corner. Tough shit, learn the spacing. No need to make the combos even more braindead than they already are. An additional 5 frames of untech is not needed, his combos are not hard. It would also probably make his normal Fafnir combos even better for no apparent reason.

 Hmmmm....

j.D: Again, unnecessary. Most of the characters who don't get hit by j.D crouching have lower stamina and will take a ton of damage even if you do airdash j.S-HS. Get over it. And why additional 4 frames of untech? As if his combos weren't dumb enough already, that would probably let you do something like j.D-j.D, Fafnir, into relaunch j.D-j.D and Fafnir AGAIN. Hello stun, apparently SBZ thinks Sol doesn't have enough of you, so he wants you to give him even more!

Fine, I'll give you this one.  But you do realize that double Fafnir in a combo causes immediate knockdown?

 

5D: Really? It's 2015, are we still relying on 5D for mixup? These are not that great for a reason. I don't see any reason this should be 0 on block. Increased range MAYBE, even though they already increased the range from previous games and gave it a MUCH better animation.

For the life of me, I don't understand WHAT THE FUCK the year or times have anything to do with gameplay.  And it'd be nice if you actually provided reasons as to why they're not great.

 

Kudakero/Divekick: This move is +2 on block! They did decrease the pushback on the first hit on block in 1.1, which is why you are more likely to see the flame whiff. They did this for a reason; having a move that had great priority/hitbox and was plus on block while altering your timing and trajectory from the air is REALLY FREAKIN' GOOD. That's why they changed it (extended vulnerable box and less pushout on first hit on block). Again, learn how to space the move. The advantages of it are still really good. You can YRC it at different times to change the trajectory and timing of your fall, which can give you a free opening. If you have meter, RC on hit at midscreen for great damage. You can combo off of it in the corner meterless. This is a great move.

Fine fine, I'll give you this one.

 

6HS: People die when they get CH by this. It may get traded by weird moves sometimes, but oh well, if they're that desperate, cancel to something else and punish the bejesus out of them for trying. Someone hitting you during 6HS means that person is MASHING in anticipation, and you can make them pay dearly for that. Considering how rewarding 6HS is now, I don't see any reason to make it even harder for people to deal with.

Shit, you know what, you're right on this one.  I really ought to try some of the stuff that I'm thinking out in practice mode instead of pulling it from what I remember.

CH windows: No idea what you mean by this. In any case, no reason to give Sol even more reason to just do moves by reducing the amount he gets punished when someone reads him.

Nah, he does take counterhits a lot despite having completed a move.  Try getting counterhits on Ky in similar situations.  The counterhit windows for other characters are significantly smaller than his.  Reducing it would only result in Sol not taking ridiculous damage for trying to think.

DP PRC: Nope. Just, nope. If you whiff a DP, you should get punished. Especially with PRC giving SLOWDOWN and you potentially getting to punish your opponent for reading the situation correctly. This is stupid. You should not get rewarded for reading your opponent incorrectly.

For a Guilty Gear player who's played so long, it seems as if you don't know how GG reacts sometimes.  You would maintain the upward and forward velocity of your DP, meaning you're still going for a ride.  The PRC is just to make it safer on the way down.  I can't imagine ANY situation where he could punish someone for baiting his DP.

 

Sooooooo, yeah. Sol is good. He doesn't need these buffs, they would just end up making him even more braindead. It's hard enough being a Sol player and getting no respect from the average player, who has no idea of how difficult it can be to play Sol at a high level.

Well, thanks for your input.  Though I wouldn't give much credit to anyone who complains about Sol.  You and I both know he eats about as much shit as he gives, and they've made up their mind already about the character, so leave their scrub asses be.  Though I still think some of these tweaks that haven't been given appropriate counterpoints as to why they're a bad idea should still be implemented.  

[greatfernman]

Unlike what a great deal many of you may think, I am taking into consideration matches of "better" players than myself, and seeing how often the reliance upon Sol's specials and even normals leads to colossal disappointments.

you can watch all the matches of "better" players than you that you like, but if you don't understand why they do what they do then you can't take it into consideration properly

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

 

It doesn't bother me how they respond.  It's not like I'm upset with it.  I think the fact that they're acting like wild animals is more telling of their understanding than it is mine.  I mean, to compromise, even at best, all I'm doing is making Sol derpier.  If people think that the idea of making fafnir do 5 more frames of untech time is akin to giving Leo a nuclear warhead for a forward punch, or screen clearing supers that cost no meter, then so be it.  It IS still good for a laugh, even if I'm trying to be serious. 

If anything, why doesn't someone explain to me why Faust should have such ridiculous screen control, range, and insane rushdown (what with being complete with a safejump that stops his upward momentum) and be considered fair, with no need for changes in revalator, if these designers are completely astute in their balance mechanics?  I did keep in mind the abilities of better Sol players, my one problem is that there were properties about certain moves that I didn't take into consideration, and should've tried in practice mode rather than just relying entirely on theory fighter.  They've been addressed, and dropped.  I still have a few others that I still think are viable until they are also addressed in an appropriate way.

 

And if you think that my ideas were bad, you should hear some of Steve H's suggestions for Ky.  Lol

- Air greed sever (for knockdown purposes)

- Air Split ciel

- Cross up jumping slash returns (I aggree with this one)

- faster stun dipper

- Jump install on air fireball yrc

[DaiAndOh]

PRC whiff punishing? Ok, 9 frame startup in Xrd, you whiff a DP and immediately PRC. Their frames are essentially doubled for an extended period of time.

Let's say I did a ball set at Venom right outside your DP range. You took the bait and DP'd. Whoops! PRC'd immediately. You know...you're still on the ground! But because of the time slow, I can have about 20 frames, give or take of recovery. Just enough time to eat a counterhit Fafnir in the face.

And if you are in the air...remember that nice trajectory changing move you got? Yup!

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

 

 

[Morpheus]  And what if I told you there was this magical ability to set the point for which a move could become PRCed?[/Matrix]

You also act like divekick is his one stop shop for getting out of any air situation for free.  Forget the fact that Sol will probably still be facing away from the opponent, making the use of divekick horribly unsafe when he lands.

 

Edit:  Seriously, this forum's quote system is busted.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Sol Badguy Z AC

[Lord Knight]

Suggested Millia Tweaks/Oversights:

 

fS and 5H - please let her convert into knockdown at max range, I think she needs that.

fS - very puzzled on why this is not jump cancellable on block

Lust shaker - please let her convert this on hit into knockdown.

6K - please change this to attack level 4 so that she can convert off of this attack easier.

JP - please change the attack level to "1" from "0".

Secret Garden - needs a YRC point once the bubble comes out, in my opinion. 

Silent force - please add the K and H versions of Silent Force, as she had in previous versions.

Chroming Rose - please make it so that there is no sound when it is over. 

Turbo fall - please enable the special cancel on landing that she had in previous versions.

2S - please add a 5P gatling to this move, as she had in previous versions.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I'd also ask you not fall into a similar trap - one where we assume that just because it can happen that it's viable in all but fluke situations.

Unlike what a great deal many of you may think, I am taking into consideration matches of "better" players than myself, and seeing how often the reliance upon Sol's specials and even normals leads to colossal disappointments.

 

Geez man, would it kill you to name a few moves that it wouldn't beat anymore?  Anyway, I proposed this change to see it used more often than it is, because at present and at high level, it's pretty much not used at all.

 

[Unicron]You exaggerate...[/unicron].  I think it's fair for Sol to get IAD attack > attack > VV when confirming that gunflame has hit without anticipating it.  Unless you can name an example where this untechable time will lead to more than necessary damage and advantages, it seems objectively justified.  I guess it would help if I specified exactly how much untech time I'd be giving it.  Maybe 7.

 

Okay, you win this one.  Just checked it out in practice mode.  I was under the impression that the opponent could still tech from counterhit cr. HS in Xrd at a certain height that would make Sol unable to do his most damaging combo. 

Wow dude.  You and I have agreed for the longest time that Bandit revolver should hit people below him when coming back down.  And no, it wouldn't need to be adjusted if they added that in, because the hit contact would be consumed at an earlier point - it's not like the previous hitboxes from the earlier parts of the animation would just disappear, leaving only the fully revolved one.  Regardless, who cares if it leads to massive stun on a crouching opponent?  Anyone in their right minds would just block it high or hit him out of it before it completes.  And even werider still, you're more willing to approve the YRC over that?  Even I thought that the extended YRC window might be pushing it.... D:

 

Not sure I understand you here.  What's so great about canceling a jumping kick into jumping p?  Also, I noticed that j.k can't cancel into j. HS.  That needs to be addressed yesterday.

 

I'm not budging on this one.  Standing HS for the longest time in GG had that small little invulnerability on his lower hitbox, and these were games where he could get maximum damage MIDSCREEN.  The fact that it whiffs in front of his face makes extending the hitbox closer to his body a necessity.

 

On the pushing them out for free.... So what?  I wasted a full bar of meter to get to that point.  And again, the fact that these have such drawbacks justifies the changes fixing them.  If they're so small, or insignificant, why not?

 Hmmmm....

Fine, I'll give you this one.  But you do realize that double Fafnir in a combo causes immediate knockdown?

 

For the life of me, I don't understand WHAT THE FUCK the year or times have anything to do with gameplay.  And it'd be nice if you actually provided reasons as to why they're not great.

 

Fine fine, I'll give you this one.

 

Shit, you know what, you're right on this one.  I really ought to try some of the stuff that I'm thinking out in practice mode instead of pulling it from what I remember.

Nah, he does take counterhits a lot despite having completed a move.  Try getting counterhits on Ky in similar situations.  The counterhit windows for other characters are significantly smaller than his.  Reducing it would only result in Sol not taking ridiculous damage for trying to think.

For a Guilty Gear player who's played so long, it seems as if you don't know how GG reacts sometimes.  You would maintain the upward and forward velocity of your DP, meaning you're still going for a ride.  The PRC is just to make it safer on the way down.  I can't imagine ANY situation where he could punish someone for baiting his DP.

 

Well, thanks for your input.  Though I wouldn't give much credit to anyone who complains about Sol.  You and I both know he eats about as much shit as he gives, and they've made up their mind already about the character, so leave their scrub asses be.  Though I still think some of these tweaks that haven't been given appropriate counterpoints as to why they're a bad idea should still be implemented.  

Seems like you're not watching enough matches if you don't think RS gets used. It just tends to get used in conjunction with YRC most of the time, which is really baller (use RS to dodge backwards -> YRC -> IAD forward to punish whiff). Move is good.

Giving GF enough stun to land an IAD afterwards would lead to things like IAD S-K-D, land, dash j.K to pick up combo. Or easy IAD j.K-D -> Divekick near corner. This is dumb and unnecessary.

For BR, I'm assuming you want it to hit lower so people can't just duck under it (BTW I don't remember us ever having a consensus on this move BUT I DIGRESS), but if you were to do that, it would necessarily have to hit later in the move, which by extension means you land while the opponent is still stunned, giving you more plus frames. This could be fixed by just extending the hitbox a bit lower, which is fine and dandy, but I don't think it's necessary. Nobody in the know ducks BR, and if you were to "fix" it this way, you'd just be adding even more to the frustration of newer players who already think Sol is overpowered when they end up having to block continuously after blocking BR crouching.

Cancelling j.K to j.P is basically saying you want Sol to have Ky's j.K. When you combine that with j.K's new JC property, you are giving Sol mindless air-to-air strings that he can either convert to damage + corner carry or super flexible air string pressure.

5HS whiffing close to Sol's body is a consequence of how the friggin move animates. Same reason you can do point blank 5HS to Johnny wakeup super and have the super whiff. It's irrelevant to pretty much anything, because learning how to space it in combos is not hard. As far as the lower vulnerable box, this was likely changed due to new RC system allowing you to get big damage off of 5HS without a counterhit. They likely felt it shouldn't be too good at hitting out other moves, since then you could just spam 5HS at poke range and just YRC whiffs (which you can still kinda do). You can not budge on this point all you want, you're still making a big deal out of nothing. 5HS is not integral to Sol's midscreen poke game.

If DI TR is a free pushout on block, there is nothing stopping me from just doing it for no reason when I think my DI is about to run out, in order to push the other player all the way across the screen so he can't punish my stun at the end. This is stupid and completely misses the point of DI having a stun at the end. Keep in mind how quickly Sol builds meter in DI and it's not inconceivable that you could do DI with only 50 meter and get the other 50 while running around like a doofus. Consider also that you lose all meter at the end of DI, so there's no reason NOT to just do TR when it's about to end.

As far as regular TR throw invul, you're forgetting about Hell Fire TR. I think it's fair that the move doesn't just straight out beat everything due to that scenario. Again, you have VV for beating throws and then you can just RC for better damage on hit and a mixup on block. Why are you using TR as a reversal in that situation? You keep saying that it's okay to change because it won't be that big of a deal, but if it's not that big of a deal, why are you so adamant that it should be changed? Just use your better tool and move on.

Double Fafnir combos are really good. You can often dash forward after the second Fafnir and catch the opponent before they hit the ground with 5K or 5S into 6P-6HS routes. Most of his most damaging routes off of normal hit Fafnir use a double Fafnir combo. Big damage and stun. Allowing him to do this off of his normal starters would make him incredibly dangerous. Same with adding extra frames of hitstun to Fafnir itself, you're just setting the stage for Bandit Bringer to hit off of a non-CH Fafnir starter for even more damage and stun.

5D should not be 0 on block because now I can just spam 5D on mixup for free with no consequence. If you block it, I'll just use my super-fast 5S to immediately re-establish my offensive position (or 5K if I'm close enough). This is especially potent if I have meter and have you cornered, because Sol 5D corner combos do a ton of damage and with meter I can easily go right back on offense if you block 5D. I just don't understand, with it being 2015 and GG having been a thing for over 15 years, how it is that you are unable to come up with strong enough mixups to the point that you would want to try to rely on 5D for mixup.

Sol takes counterhits on move whiff for whiffing Tataki Otoshi after VV (which he should), aaaaaaand what else? Oh yeah, Gun Flame, because that move is really good and there is actual risk involved in getting around it, especially when Sol has meter. In pretty much every circumstance, if you're getting CH, it's probably because you're still in active frames of the attack, which makes sense.

DP PRC is stupid. Even if you adjusted the PRC window so that you would have to take the upward momentum, you still a.) can block, and b.) have the opportunity to do something to hit the other person if they screwed up/can do a pseudo-mixup with divekick. Being in the air and FDing is the safest position in GG because the only thing that can get you is an airthrow, and now you can break those in Revelator, so you are still asking for a get out of jail free card.

That should be sufficient evidence that nearly all of these proposed changes are a bad idea and unnecessary.

[greatfernman]

 

If anything, why doesn't someone explain to me why Faust should have such ridiculous screen control, range, and insane rushdown (what with being complete with a safejump that stops his upward momentum) and be considered fair, with no need for changes in revalator, if these designers are completely astute in their balance mechanics?  I did keep in mind the abilities of better Sol players, my one problem is that there were properties about certain moves that I didn't take into consideration, and should've tried in practice mode rather than just relying entirely on theory fighter.  They've been addressed, and dropped.  I still have a few others that I still think are viable until they are also addressed in an appropriate way.

Faust is actually kind of too good imo.

Sol is just as good as Faust imo.

Sol is actually kind of too good imo.

The designers are not completely astute.

(Though if the game was balanced around trying to get every character at Faust/Sol level I'd be fine with that too. so maybe they're not /too/ good)

[zissou]

Choosing two characters generally considered to be in the same tier and asking for endless buffs for one and nerfs for the other is pretty genius trolling.

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

Seems like you're not watching enough matches if you don't think RS gets used. It just tends to get used in conjunction with YRC most of the time, which is really baller (use RS to dodge backwards -> YRC -> IAD forward to punish whiff). Move is good.

Good point....

Giving GF enough stun to land an IAD afterwards would lead to things like IAD S-K-D, land, dash j.K to pick up combo. Or easy IAD j.K-D -> Divekick near corner. This is dumb and unnecessary.

Another good point....

For BR, I'm assuming you want it to hit lower so people can't just duck under it (BTW I don't remember us ever having a consensus on this move BUT I DIGRESS), but if you were to do that, it would necessarily have to hit later in the move, which by extension means you land while the opponent is still stunned, giving you more plus frames. This could be fixed by just extending the hitbox a bit lower, which is fine and dandy, but I don't think it's necessary. Nobody in the know ducks BR, and if you were to "fix" it this way, you'd just be adding even more to the frustration of newer players who already think Sol is overpowered when they end up having to block continuously after blocking BR crouching.

I want to hit Ky and Millia out of their sliding moves.  And it was a good long while ago, but yeah, we did both agree that Sol should get the beat out on Ky if he does stun dipper at a bad time while we're BRing.  And again, the extra stun doesn't seem like a problem, shouldn't have slid while I was doing that.  I also don't care to think about what anit-sol players think about that move.  This move by design, should hop over lows and hit them on the way down if there's that much recovery.  Nor am I concerned about scrubs who can't intuitively figure out that blocking BR gives them a free throw at the end.  Also, Sol's foot will make contact with the opponent even when crouching, before it reaches the point where it hits below him.  This is not a problem.

 

Cancelling j.K to j.P is basically saying you want Sol to have Ky's j.K. When you combine that with j.K's new JC property, you are giving Sol mindless air-to-air strings that he can either convert to damage + corner carry or super flexible air string pressure.

I don't understand how. I've seen people reject gatling jumping punches in succession.

 

5HS whiffing close to Sol's body is a consequence of how the friggin move animates. Same reason you can do point blank 5HS to Johnny wakeup super and have the super whiff. It's irrelevant to pretty much anything, because learning how to space it in combos is not hard. As far as the lower vulnerable box, this was likely changed due to new RC system allowing you to get big damage off of 5HS without a counterhit. They likely felt it shouldn't be too good at hitting out other moves, since then you could just spam 5HS at poke range and just YRC whiffs (which you can still kinda do). You can not budge on this point all you want, you're still making a big deal out of nothing. 5HS is not integral to Sol's midscreen poke game.

It should be :P

If DI TR is a free pushout on block, there is nothing stopping me from just doing it for no reason when I think my DI is about to run out, in order to push the other player all the way across the screen so he can't punish my stun at the end. This is stupid and completely misses the point of DI having a stun at the end. Keep in mind how quickly Sol builds meter in DI and it's not inconceivable that you could do DI with only 50 meter and get the other 50 while running around like a doofus. Consider also that you lose all meter at the end of DI, so there's no reason NOT to just do TR when it's about to end.

IF, and only IF, they were that close, in that particular part of the screen, they deserved to get pushed out.  You can simply super jump over the blast part.

 

As far as regular TR throw invul, you're forgetting about Hell Fire TR. I think it's fair that the move doesn't just straight out beat everything due to that scenario. Again, you have VV for beating throws and then you can just RC for better damage on hit and a mixup on block. Why are you using TR as a reversal in that situation? You keep saying that it's okay to change because it won't be that big of a deal, but if it's not that big of a deal, why are you so adamant that it should be changed? Just use your better tool and move on.

I think it should be changed because it doesn't seem right at all.  Hellfire be damned.  It's a super.  Block it.

 

Double Fafnir combos are really good. You can often dash forward after the second Fafnir and catch the opponent before they hit the ground with 5K or 5S into 6P-6HS routes. Most of his most damaging routes off of normal hit Fafnir use a double Fafnir combo. Big damage and stun. Allowing him to do this off of his normal starters would make him incredibly dangerous. Same with adding extra frames of hitstun to Fafnir itself, you're just setting the stage for Bandit Bringer to hit off of a non-CH Fafnir starter for even more damage and stun.

Gotcha

 

5D should not be 0 on block because now I can just spam 5D on mixup for free with no consequence. If you block it, I'll just use my super-fast 5S to immediately re-establish my offensive position (or 5K if I'm close enough). This is especially potent if I have meter and have you cornered, because Sol 5D corner combos do a ton of damage and with meter I can easily go right back on offense if you block 5D. I just don't understand, with it being 2015 and GG having been a thing for over 15 years, how it is that you are unable to come up with strong enough mixups to the point that you would want to try to rely on 5D for mixup.

Well it should definitely not be so unsafe on block. 

 

Sol takes counterhits on move whiff for whiffing Tataki Otoshi after VV (which he should), aaaaaaand what else? Oh yeah, Gun Flame, because that move is really good and there is actual risk involved in getting around it, especially when Sol has meter. In pretty much every circumstance, if you're getting CH, it's probably because you're still in active frames of the attack, which makes sense.

You're forgetting normals that have completed.

DP PRC is stupid. Even if you adjusted the PRC window so that you would have to take the upward momentum, you still a.) can block, and b.) have the opportunity to do something to hit the other person if they screwed up/can do a pseudo-mixup with divekick. Being in the air and FDing is the safest position in GG because the only thing that can get you is an airthrow, and now you can break those in Revelator, so you are still asking for a get out of jail free card.

I'm still not seeing a problem with it.  If they screwed up, that's on them. 

 

That should be sufficient evidence that nearly all of these proposed changes are a bad idea and unnecessary.

Yeah, for the most part.  The more minor things still suffice.  I'll be sure to think more carefully about proposing changes to things from here on out.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Sol Badguy Z AC

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

Choosing two characters generally considered to be in the same tier and asking for endless buffs for one and nerfs for the other is pretty genius trolling.

Forgetting to read the part where I stated this is how a character's changelist would look like if they were given the same treatment Sol did over the years is genius trolling.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

"If they screwed up, that's on them"

Except you screwed up first when you DPed and got baited. You shouldn't get a free out just because you have meter.

[huber]

Some real good shit here nice work everyone.

Little eddie dying in one attack is absurd. No character should die in one hit pls buff eddie

Ky is a well rounded character but is not lightning enough. Please give him Zeus Install (Ky's version of DI) so that he can be a lightning enough dude.

[Magaki]

I'm still not seeing a problem with it.  If they screwed up, that's on them. 

I think you're severely underestimating both defensive options and DPs in GG.
Explaining that does take a huge amount of time which I don't mind doing but before, I would like to ask you something that most certainly will allow everyone else here to better understand your mindset:

Why do you think that being able to whiff cancel DPs with a PRC isn't an issue ?

See, DaiAndOh asked whether there was a game that allowed you to whiff cancel DP and he got an answer: +R and a list of those whiff cancelable DP.
But you see, most of the time on dustloop, people would just say "hurr durr whiff cancelable DP. That's so dumb it's like offense shouldn't exist. Devs are silly and incompetent. Plz nerf." and leave it at that. Just a simple rant.

That's NOT what happened. People legit thought about the reason WHY those characters should be given those unique defensive options and just by digging a little bit, you get that those moves got very specific restrictions and are by no means unbeatable meaning that it's a fully assumed design choice. But even with that, they are still great options that requires a hard read for most of the cast to beat it.
Which is actually also the case of DP RC in Xrd being already a very strong option.

If you hard read a DP RC and commit to it. And if you indeed were right by having it whiff, then that means that you fully grasped all the defensive options your opponent had and made a choice that was right in the end. This is the most basic definition of skill and smart play.
And that's a choice that is much harder than you would think. Especialy in a game where most of the cast got 3f jump startup making fuzzy jumping a very strong option which requires specific situations to punish it and even if you punish it, only a few characters can really get rewards high enough to make you regret that or simply completely shut it down.

If you just consider whether an opponent will do DP RC or fuzzy jump, a basic situation with 2 outcomes, your only choice most of the time is to either bait one or the other. But not both. You need to choose one specific option and commit to it. There are characters that competely shut down all those options and they are given a very specific name because they can do just that: Setplays.

A setplay character is hated because he's a character that wants to play Solitaire. He just does his own thing and force you you to choose one option amongst a lot of other ones restricting you severely.

In that case, how is DP PRC not the same thing ? If the moves hits or is blocked, you get a RC. Otherwise, you get a PRC and both players go back to neutral... How is that any different from setplays ? You're just playing solitaire here like them. There is no interaction with the opponent. You're just doing your own shit and you don't give a fuck about the opponent.

And to top it off, RC in Xrd are very strong in EVERY aspects. Both for defense, neutral and offense. Yes, PRC startup is still slow. Not 1.0 slow but still fast enough to make you safe in plenty of situations.

Now let's compare that to the examples of whiff cancelable DP in +R and whether it would make sense following that logic for Sol to have VV being PRCable
-FRC got no slowdown and the FRC window is affected by hitstop making it much more complicated to use in practical situations than it looks like especially when you're not actually hitting on the first active frames but much later.
-Does Sol die in 2 mistakes like Chipp and Bridget ?
-Does Sol have a random mode change mechanic ?
-Is Sol tension-dependent like a certain robot ?
-Are Sol's ways to get tension restricted and unique ?

I would also like to point out that while it makes perfectly sense for Bridget and Robo to have a FRC on their DPs in order to be able to compete with the rest of the cast, on characters like Chipp, it's clearly too much as you're dealing with a top tier character that, unlike the 2 formers also get huge rewards on DP RC with one of the best neutral and okizeme in the game.

So lemme ask once more, if you take all those considerations into account:

Why do you think that being able to whiff cancel DPs with a PRC isn't an issue ?

And finally, once you're done writing an elaborate answer, here's the final question that is or should be this thread's goal based on its title:

Would that benefit the game ?

PS: Would actually any Ky and/or HOS expert give their opinions concerning followup FRC and charge FRC respectively after a DP ? Not just their uses but also the risks they bring and some typical punishes that could be done on a hard read.

Don't want to be rude to other people who shared their thoughts concerning them of course but I would like to hear more opinions concerning them (And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.)

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

With HOS, most of the time you can still get CH and screwed up because the FRC point on AC is late enough that someone can punish it before it happens. If for some reason they don't (either they don't know any better or they're just slow), it's pretty funny because you can either land and immediately throw, or you can buffer another DP to come out immediately after the FRC for those who try to shut you down afterwards. Overall though, it's risky and somewhat expensive. The damage you get for correctly guessing is nothing compared to the damage you take if your opponent reads you properly, most of the time.

[Sol Badguy Z AC]

Well, these are the kinda posts I am looking forward to.  Be patient though, last night was like sleeping on bricks for me.

Though if he really wants me to name a fighting game with whiff cancelable DPs, then sure, I'll show you my knowledge.  GAROU, MARK OF THE WOLVES.  Not the most balanced game, but it's damned sure not broken because DP characters are getting away with horseshit.  They also cancel those moves with no meter usage too.

[daymendou]

What's your opinion on Sin?

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Breakable moves in MOTW still have recovery and can be whiff punished. They're more like separate moves with their own properties, rather than simply cancelling back to neutral from a move. It's not like GG where you get to cancel directly back to neutral AND you slow the other person down.

[mAc Chaos]

Wow, it feels weird seeing an actual substantive discussion. I've been in BB General too long.

But guys, remember to keep it civil.