A.X.I.S. Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 tager vs rachel, can we discuss it? i actually wanna know why the list says 7.0/3.0 in rachels favor.
Spirit Juice Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Without going into too much detail, here's the basic rundown. Rachel's zoning > Tager Rachel's 6A > any jump in Tager has Rachel's 6B > Sledge (which he needs to deal with her zoning) Rachel's j.A > Tager's huge crouching hit box (free high/low mixup without wind, she can practically pressure him infinitely as well because of this)
worldjem7 Posted November 8, 2009 Author Posted November 8, 2009 ChuDat made Ice Climbers (SSBM) go up like 3 tiers after a single tournament. I know that this isn't Smashboards, but if Tager is capable of winning so cleanly, it shouldn't appear to be the opposite. But my idea of what the tiers should look like are nothing like the current :X Although, I will give chu credit here for showing character potential, generally, Smashboards has no idea what it's doing when it comes to tier lists and match-ups. Believe me, I know. Anything they do should be taken with a grain of a grain of salt. worldjem are you still updating this thing? Every time someone argues a match-up, or asks about a match-up, they either agree with some of the chart in their argument and/or someone almost always comes in and properly explains why the match-up is what it is, keeping the chart from changing very much. These range from a few posts to complete discussions, but have mostly always lead into what the chart is now. I'd like to let everyone know that I keep a record of the better posts, (who,what,when) so that I can more quickly relay past posts when the need arises and for historic reflection. If the chart gets properly finalized, I will put links on the first post that best describe why each match-up is the way it is to better help people understand each match-up and to help cut down on repetitive questions. With that said, I think a bit of organization on my part would be appropriate so that we can focus more on the most questionable match-ups first. From what I've seen throughout the entire thread, the match-ups that seem the most urgent are the following: Bang-Tager Current: 55-45 Suggested:70:30 Heroic_Legacy and 10stars strongly feel that this match-up is 70-30 in favour of Bang coming from the Bang's perspective. There hasn't been any solid argument from the Tager's side and that's the only thing that's keeping the chart static for that match-up. If Mike Z or another knowledgeable Tager player could give the Tager's side of the match-up, we can weed out any discrepancies and properly confirm by how much of an advantage Bang has over Tager. Posts: Heroic_Legacy 1 Raiderwarlord99 Heroic_Legacy 2 worldjem7 SolBadass Henaki Heroic_Legacy quoting 10stars Carl-Bang Current: 55-45 Suggested: 70-30 10stars mentioned this, but it never really took off. With such a large claim from a well-known and respected Bang player, I think it merits some investigation. Posts: JinSaotome Any match-up is always welcome for discussion. I only suggest these match-ups because these are significant changes, but the debates between them are incomplete.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Without going into too much detail, here's the basic rundown. Rachel's zoning > Tager Rachel's 6A > any jump in Tager has Rachel's 6B > Sledge (which he needs to deal with her zoning) Rachel's j.A > Tager's huge crouching hit box (free high/low mixup without wind, she can practically pressure him infinitely as well because of this) thats sad, match-up doesn't feel this crappy. the zoning yes its terrible to deal with, wind+labelia is a problem but your not suppose to be sledging if she is zoning you, solved by just walking and blocking, some rachel's waste too much wind trying to zone and end up having to do it normally then getting sledged because they get backed into the corner, not hard getting close just need a bit of patience. 6A is a good move to stop tager but can you can do shananigans to make it harder to hit, cross-up J.2C can make her wiff and get CH'd you can also control your pace in the air with J.C and still think of things to do, 6A can't be jump canceled so IBing it would make you safe, or barriering it. 6B is retarded lets start off with that, no real punish for tager unless its IB 360/720, believe me! when she starts using 6B i had no punish, i even hopped it but she just 6A'd me, if anything 6B>tager, at least to me. god 6B is such a badass move. J.A nonsense can be negated with barrier or IBing it, rachel tried this mess on me yesterday so i barrier and problem solved.
feri Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Exactly how does Tager get rid of the frog safely? It seems Rachel can put one out with relatively little risk in this matchup (assuming he has no bolt at the time).
A.X.I.S. Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Exactly how does Tager get rid of the frog safely? It seems Rachel can put one out with relatively little risk in this matchup (assuming he has no bolt at the time). frog eats bolt. frog loses to J.2C, which is the safest way to kill it, sledge can net you pumkin rape. if frog is behind you then just block and IB. the truth is frog gets her sledged or gives you meter, just don't sledge past the frog or you lose half your health. if anything makes this match unfavorable, its the damage rachel can do on tager with just a J.2C and some wind and poof half your health is gone.
Kuuhaku Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 There is a punish for 6B. Bait for it then back dash and do whatever you like because the recovery on 6B is crappy. She can only punish you consistently with it if you spam sledge. Yeah, the match up is bad for Tager, but he just needs to catch Rachel in the corner if possible. Because of her large OTG hitbox, I believe Tager has a high-damaging Rachel specific combo, no? Also- if you bait for a summon and spark bolt, there's not much Rachel can do but eat the hit because of the recovery on her summons.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 There is a punish for 6B. Bait for it then back dash and do whatever you like because the recovery on 6B is crappy. She can only punish you consistently with it if you spam sledge. Yeah, the match up is bad for Tager, but he just needs to catch Rachel in the corner if possible. Because of her large OTG hitbox, I believe Tager has a high-damaging Rachel specific combo, no? we can't really backdash punish it because most rachel's do it at max range which is why IB 360/720 is our best bet. her fat hit box is great to do odd combo's off of, but it only really opens up more chances to magnetize like this. 360B>5C>5D stuff like that is what we can get away with. i'd like to note that when rachel is pressured her only real tool to get out is chair, and that can be baited and punished for over 5000 damage easy, so once you get in on her she have very few tools to stop us with. and i don't know but it seems 5A have a good vertical hit box too, it stuffs tech J.2C alot, any clarifications?
Kuuhaku Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Yeah, j2C can be stuffed by jabs. It's annoying really. The only thing is if j2C is done right it's rather fast (TKed low to the ground and winded), so you're better off blocking high and keeping an eye out for her linking to 2B which is the only low move she can link from j2C. If you IB 2B that's pretty punishable since that also has silly recovery. If the Rachel's good at do 6B max range, you could also jump and then TK elbow- she won't have enough time to get 6A out because of it's start up + whiffed 6B recovery. So elbow should hit her. Do keep in mind that these days I see a lot more Rachels using IB + counter assault. So cat chair isn't her only way to get out of pressure if she's got 50% heat (and it's not that hard for her to build it). There's also back dash + wind if she's given enough of an opening (and not in the corner). But if she's magnetized, that limits her options.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 rachel hops in the air slow so her cross ups are easy to see coming, the only issue is figuring out if she is gonna IAD or just J.2C. tager is a slow jumper so i have to predict 6B since it can hit on the way up because tager is a fatass. 2B may have some stupid wiff but lets throw this situation out. rachel uses wind+pumkin rush down, she got 2 options that can come in a split second, she can rush 2B which will lead into massive damage if she uses more wind or she can TK+wind J.2C. the issue is that its real fast and tough to react to, i just pick my poison and hope i can stand back up to block that TK hit. to this day 2B is the 3rd most annoying weapon she has in her arsenal to me. 1. wind. 2. 6B. 3. 2B. wind just says no to tager and yes to half your health gone to knock down into frog.
kro_ Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Timing Rachel's 6a against Tager's j.2c is tight but doable. Staying within range to 6b his sledge startup or just out of range to 6b the recovery requires some decent spacing. Rachel needs to be out of B sledge range to use any of her specials. Rachel needs to watch for spark bolt even if she he is out of his B sledge range. If Rachel's air to ground block strings aren't tight enough or Tager defends well enough, then it's pretty common to whiff a j.2c or get SPD'd during the gap. Spark bolt works really well against Rachel because she needs those summons to get an advantage going. She has a harder time than anyone escaping out of his pressure while magnetized. It's very easy for Rachel to mess up in this matchup compared to say Nu or Arakune, but Tager shouldn't be able to win if the Rachel player plays right. Especially if she has a pumpkin between them while she's out of B sledge range. Just wait for him to try any special or laggy normal and you can punish with winded pumpkin + followup. She can pretty much turtle forever and build up wind meter in this position. But then, Tager can just turtle and build spark bolt meter too. Rushdown tips the matchup in Rachel's favor. If the Rachel player knows how to abuse instant overheads, mix it up occasionally with lows, and keep tight pressure without running out of wind then Tager has no chance. She can even use magnetism as an excuse to start rushing. Tager cannot defend against a projectile and melee attack hitting at the same time. This is probably the main reason they list it as 7-3. You just don't see it properly executed often. It's ingrained for most people to stay away from grapplers, but the truth is that rushing him is probably Rachel's best chance at winning. Get rushed after releasing your spark bolt. Be helpless while she regains wind meter when you don't have it. It's a no-win situation. But Tager is one of the best at punishing mistakes. And everybody here still makes them, so yeah. In Japan it's 7-3, but in America it's more like 6-4 on a good day.
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 I was playing with outlawassassin yesterday and i have to say that this matchup is piss poor and skewed in noel's favor heavily. Noel vs Tager of course. Poor tager can do nothing about 5A and 6A
Skye Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Shoot me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Rachel only summon frog when she's Frog comboing, and not full screen at the ironic moment Tager's Spark Ball gauge is full? It's a given for anyone to keep an eye on that gauge so any smart player won't do something so stupid as to frog full screen when his gauge is full. If she absolutely had to, then she's do it air borne. This way she can block on the way down or at least Silpheed herself up, and the Frog would be closer to Tager than if she just did it on the ground. I could be wrong, I don't play her after all.
ShinsoBEAM Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Really this is my list of annoyance. pumpkin+wind j.2C, for so many reasons 6A(dust) is just way too good. Everything else is their but its just not to the same level of annoyance. Also axis if the rachels are dumb and you got meter, they try to pumpkin+wind rush down with them on the ground just 720 that shit.
Kuuhaku Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Shoot me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Rachel only summon frog when she's Frog comboing, and not full screen at the ironic moment Tager's Spark Ball gauge is full? It's a given for anyone to keep an eye on that gauge so any smart player won't do something so stupid as to frog full screen when his gauge is full. If she absolutely had to, then she's do it air borne. This way she can block on the way down or at least Silpheed herself up, and the Frog would be closer to Tager than if she just did it on the ground. I could be wrong, I don't play her after all. Rachel can't block on the way down because of recovery. Well... at least... not after a certain time. And that's not just limited to frog. Pumpkin has a longer recovery time and there's also B and C lobelia which can be sparkbolt pretty easily. It basically comes down to if Rachel makes enough mistakes she's fucked. But otherwise there's not really much Tager can do except bait and try to outsmart her.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Outsmart a Rachel?! being tager, its your job to outsmart the top tiers, i got away with cross up 720's, random J.2C's, and 6A pumking rushes because i knew what to do, btw 6A pumkin rushes is a very dangerous and hard to do move, not something smart but if you nail it, gonna leave rachel in the face for a long time. this match feels like 6/4 because she doesn't have to make a mistake, then again being smart means forcing her to make a "bad" move and punishing her for it, yesterday a rachel tried to surprise chair me and i baited it and punished, i put her in a spot where she had to chair or she never gets out. you HAVE to do this to truely overcome with tager. rachel feels more like a 6:4 match up, she doesn't have a one-sided advantage over tager. @ SKD: 6A loses to backdash so thats a free punish. then again you might mean 2A. i don't see how its in her favor that much outside of sheer speed and damage.
Konton Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 1. mashing 5A,2A, and JA makes it hard to punish her. 2. J.B says no to airs. 3. optic barrel is a sledge bait, a smart tager is afraid/annoyed by that move. 4. she has a 5000+ damage corner combo on tager and its not hard to do to him. i want to note that noel's drive is a mix of projectile and physical hits so sledging isn't too bright, CH 28D doesn't play. i'm pretty sure someone else can go deeper in this but to say sledge fucks her up is just bad, to be honest i don't consider sledge a necessary tool in this match, i rather use 360A since it has invincibility but again you got moves that stuff's 360 and backdash easily, plus her mobility, and again A spam! tager can't do anything but IB it. personally me it feels more like a 5.5/4.5 in tagers favor because its not hard hitting noel and taking half her health. I'm not worried about drive here. It's that he can sledge through 2c and 5c that destroys my mix-up game more often than not. But I see where you're coming from. I've been experimenting in this match lately and 6c eats sledge and leads to 4k. =D
A.X.I.S. Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 I'm not worried about drive here. It's that he can sledge through 2c and 5c that destroys my mix-up game more often than not. But I see where you're coming from. I've been experimenting in this match lately and 6c eats sledge and leads to 4k. =D you played rachel on me.
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 I'm not worried about drive here. It's that he can sledge through 2c and 5c that destroys my mix-up game more often than not. But I see where you're coming from. I've been experimenting in this match lately and 6c eats sledge and leads to 4k. =D Psychic sledge rapes Drive. when its being initiated, a psychic A sledge can beat quite a bit and put you in a position you dont want to be in. But there is also the posibility of doing 5.6kish off of 214A which beats sledges. The only thing you should be using 5C for is for Jumpcancels and frame trapping to score that 4.5k and even then it would be better to do 5B 2C on a blocking person if they are going to attempt to break out. So just jumpcancels, its not terribly useful. And are you just randomly 2Cing? because i dont see how that could ever be a problem unless tager has projectile invin on startup of sledge and you use it in a frame trap. But even then those arent mixups. All in all, stick to 5A Dragon, can you find out what point tager has projectile invin at? Axis, 5A 6A beats backdash. whiffing 5A still gives you enough time to hit with 6A, landing EITHER of the two leads to ~3k damage plus oki for more 5A goodness.
A.X.I.S. Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Dragon, can you find out what point tager has projectile invin at? frame data says from frame 1-21 for 236A 1-40 for 236B. sick. Axis, 5A 6A beats backdash. whiffing 5A still gives you enough time to hit with 6A, landing EITHER of the two leads to ~3k damage plus oki for more 5A goodness. sorry i normally don't see that move a lot, i take a wiff 5A as a free poke or 360. dammit your the reason i would get a ps3. i hear its alot of good noels on ps3.
SuperKawaiiDesu Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 sorry i normally don't see that move a lot, i take a wiff 5A as a free poke or 360. dammit your the reason i would get a ps3. i hear its alot of good noels on ps3. I wish there were alot of good noels <_< There are alot of d spammers on psn too ;~; there are maybe a handful of good noels on psn but youre just better off finding people to play offline. and about the projectile invin, the only time you should really use 2C is doing 6C 2C IMO or you can get sledged out. Maybe you can frame trap if youre getting ballsy, but making tagers weary of 214A cancels will make them either block the string or backdash, in which case you are at an advantage because of the space. so thats a pretty moot point from konton :o
farranpoison Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 I wish there were alot of good noels <_< There are alot of d spammers on psn too ;~; there are maybe a handful of good noels on psn but youre just better off finding people to play offline. Why aren't there more good Noels?! It was a happy day for me when I fought a Noel that used an aerial BnB on me instead of the usual D spam.
Skye Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Rachel can't block on the way down because of recovery. Well... at least... not after a certain time. And that's not just limited to frog. Pumpkin has a longer recovery time and there's also B and C lobelia which can be sparkbolt pretty easily. It basically comes down to if Rachel makes enough mistakes she's fucked. But otherwise there's not really much Tager can do except bait and try to outsmart her. But what smart person would do that full screen while the SparkBolt gauge is full? On that note, if they trying to zone full screen, would Voltic Charge east basically most of her crap and then give him more meter to work with. If the Rachel is too dumb to be in his face and give him no chance at anything, this tactic sounds like it'll work wonders.
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