[CS1] Rachel Info and Discussion

[KowtowRobinson]

"As for the quality of Rachel you exchange with the Sandbag from the sibling of extreme pulverization, it is"

lol this is the best moonspeak translation I've seen in a while.

[TTRlovesMittens]

Actually just so you guys don't get the wrong idea and interpret that incorrectly, it means basically: "Rachel's specialty has changed from extreme pulverization, to its brother, sandbagging."

[MisterBadguy]

I would say I died a little inside when I read the full nerf list. The truth is, I didn't die a little inside, my insides became one gigantic necrotic cyst.

[Discotheque]

I wonder if anyone tested out -6C properties because lol everything else seems to have been nerfed -ja/jb/2B-3C speed and/or range -BBL in general (damage/forced knockdown/less or more hits)

[ant12292]

From the changes, it sounds like they're trying to change Rachel into a completely zoning type of character.

The thing is though, if they were trying to do that, why would they increase the recovery on 236B/C? I mean its not as though 236B/C had short recovery time to begin with.

[x3AlexSaysRawr]

Sounds like Rachel and Jin really got screwed over Tbh I really am not at all looking forward to CS right now. I mean did you see what they did to Tager? If we becoming an all zoning Rachel, Tager will DEVOUR us

[comoesa]

Man her normals got hit hard...some nerfs i can understand like you shouldnt be able to combo into frog...but 6a lol loses to more stuff.....its not like she can do shit after it due to huge j2c nerf. Her new dd better be good...summons random projectiles on the screen hmmm. Also using wind uses it up the whole meter...so winding normals in general is nerfed i guess.

[Ryock]

I really don't think they'll keep even half this stuff for her honestly at this point. It looks like every character got hit pretty hard in the same way, and a lot of good attacks that were used by characters are now slower. That just makes the overall gameplay a lot slower, which completely goes against what we're used to from this company. What they're trying to do with her confuses me completely. If you're trying to make a zoning character, you don't make their zoning weaker.

[Xtra_Zero]

I hope to god you're right.

[kro_]

MAJOR NERF: Pumpkin hitbox disappears if Rachel gets hit after it is activated.

Does that happen even if Rachel blocks the attack? Either way, it doesn't seem like a major nerf to me. In fact, it seemed more like a glitch than anything.

nerf: can no longer combo into frog, because it won't otg an opponent and moves too slowly (this is bad, means less ability to regen wind during combos, and probably worse/no okizeme)

This part is confusing. Is it just for otg's? If so, then you should be able to combo into frog if you keep the opponent standing (e.g. 5b 6b 236a frog hits etc).

Anyways, assuming you can't combo into frog, you can always do something like 5b 5cdc frog 2b 5b otg into air combo. If you can't j.2c after j.c, then you can still chase air techs with pumpkin, 6a, or start zoning. She's not going to be helpless, but it feels like they just removed half of her gameplay options.

Actually, it feels like they removed any semblance of versatility for practically every character in the game that had it. Everything just sounds shallower. Not cool, but I'll just wait for gameplay vids for now. Less speculation, more playing BB:CT.

Also, I am totally going to drop Noel as a sub and replace her with Tsubaki.

Update:

・air sword iris has more or less 0 landing recovery

TK sword iris here I come.

[Spirit Juice]

Too bad TK Sword Iris won't save her from being fuck awful bad.

[EvilWolf]

"Pumpkin hitbox disappears if Rachel gets hit after it is activated." What does that mean? Like the pumpkin disappears if Rachel gets hit? If so then isn't it the same as in Calamity Trigger? I have this feeling CS will be awfully bad. Not only does Rachel's wind recharge more slowly now, we even have to use more wind on George and the DD projectile.

[zaeris]

"Pumpkin hitbox disappears if Rachel gets hit after it is activated."

What does that mean? Like the pumpkin disappears if Rachel gets hit? If so then isn't it the same as in Calamity Trigger?

I have this feeling CS will be awfully bad. Not only does Rachel's wind recharge more slowly now, we even have to use more wind on George and the DD projectile.

if you activate pumpkin with Wind and fire it, it does not go away on hit but will trade. So in this case if you trade infavourable with a projectile first your pumpkin effect dissppear and more than likely you will get combo into something.

E.g. Nu sword trade, Nu will combo you whether old scenario it will trade hiting nu and she won't be able to combo.

[Discotheque]

Considering Dora told the guys that Bang was too op and people were definitely telling how certain characters were too good/bad, I think only a few of these nerfs are going to be implemented for Rachel. I guess Arksys guys were trying out ALL the possible nerfs Rachel could get so they can decide how much is too much. Just my guess.

[Undertow]

I gotta say they messed up the only character I play in BlazBlue. It seems like they said, "she was one of the best, now let's make her one of the worst." I really hope they come to their senses and not leave Rachel this fucked up for release. That release is a long ways off though so I'm not that worried.

[chun_li1]

Considering Dora told the guys that Bang was too op and people were definitely telling how certain characters were too good/bad, I think only a few of these nerfs are going to be implemented for Rachel.

I guess Arksys guys were trying out ALL the possible nerfs Rachel could get so they can decide how much is too much. Just my guess.

Sure hope so. What I find puzzling if this is the case, why not make all her Air specials like air pumpkin, as in, no more forced landing, but free movement after executing move and see how that does for her keep/run away game that she is suppose to rely on now.

I wish they would do that if all these changes were to be implemented.

[Yggjrasil]

Damn you Kanye,why you gotta talk shit to Rachel? >.>

[saltz]

Oh man, poor Rachel... I'll stick with it though!

[Soniti]

My Proposed Changes

these are not actual changes, none of this has/will actually happen, I just feel like posting what I think arc sys should have done with Rachel

a lot of this will be the same as loke test changes, because a lot of what they did i agree with.

My proposed Rachel balance fixes:

NERFS:

System Mechanics:

Guard Libra Points: 4

Pause after using wind before it begins recovering again

Moves:

j.2c no longer chains to j.c on block (j.2c is safe on block air-to-air and air-vs-ground but your pressure is over.)

j.2c is no longer jump-cancelable on block

j.2c is no longer special move cancelable on hit, but you recover after falling a certain distance (too low for pumpkin oki, they could quick-get-up and smack you)

non-winded j.2c is no longer cancelable on block (basically only winded triangle jumps allow you to keep doing stuff)

6b counterhit stun reduced enough to prevent dash super

6b starting proration reduced from 100% to 93%

j.c hitstun reduced enough to prevent iad combos into super and air combos into super. still long enough for rejump air combos extensions with wind.

frog has less life

6a doesn't hit quite as high in the air

j.3d2c doesn't allow you to do another j.2c in the blockstring without spending another wind (no more j.3d2c 5b j.2c)

3c is -1 on block instead of +3 (can't continue pressure)

less hitstun on 3c (they get up faster so you can only put out a pumpkin as oki, not a frog)

Baden Baden Lily damage reduced by 15%

Baden Baden Lily starting proration reduced to 80%

Baden Baden Lily's added damage for poles reduced by 30%

Pumpkin hitbox disappears if Rachel gets hit after it is activated.

pumpkin duration decreased

once you wind the pumpkin, it disappears as soon as wind is no longer affecting it. disappears anyway after 2 consecutive winds

Combos

no longer able to combo into frog midscreen. still possible in the corner. note that frog combos would only allow pumpkin oki, not pumpkin+frog. combos started from 3c combos only allow super by spending 2 wind

double frog combos (tk frog +wind ones) no longer possible

no longer able to do 6a3214d6c

BUFFS:

4b is 1-2 frames faster

air sword iris

[ArkiveZero]

IMO the only things they needed to change on rachel is her damage out put (make it lower) and maybe the guard frames on 6A just to be fair to every other char. she did do a lot of damage in the corner with meter and 6A was the end all anti air. they did not need to destroy her combos or her oki game as much as they did, without oki she's basically a trash zoning character.

[Soniti]

IMO the only things they needed to change on rachel is her damage out put (make it lower) and maybe the guard frames on 6A just to be fair to every other char. she did do a lot of damage in the corner with meter and 6A was the end all anti air.

they did not need to destroy her combos or her oki game as much as they did, without oki she's basically a trash zoning character.

If you think that is all that is broken about Rachel then you haven't seen properly executed cornering and corner lockdown, along with many other overpowered things about Rachel.

[ArkiveZero]

i constantly place high in tournaments so don't think i'm some random scrub that doesnt know rachel's high level stuff. as i've already stated, IMO those were the only really really huge problems that needed to be fixed asap.

taking out her ability to combo into frog AND increasing lag on 236B is just retarded. i could understand if they took out the ability to combo into frog midscreen, but increasing the lag on 236B destroys her mid screen combo - 5B, 5CDC, 236B dash 5B j.B j.C dj j.2C which not only does less damage than the midscreen frog combo but is a little harder to do.

decreasing hit stun on j.C and making j.2C not special cancel-able is also unnecessary. without j.C dj j.2C 214B she basically has no way to set up oki without wind midscreen. with the increase on the regeneration time on her wind, this fucks her up a lot.

i'll agree that j.3CD on block shouldn't be jump cancel-able or should cancel into j.C because if your opponent blocks correctly against this they shouldn't be rewarded with more high/low mixup pressure from rachel.

3C was the only move that she has that gives her frame advantage and wasted one wind anyway so i don't see a need to make this -1 on block.

rachel has some ridiculous stuff, but they didnt need to fcking destroy how she plays

[Soniti]

i constantly place high in tournaments so don't think i'm some random scrub that doesnt know rachel's high level stuff. as i've already stated, IMO those were the only really really huge problems that needed to be fixed asap.

The idea isn't to fix only huge problems and leave Rachel super strong. Players demanded a nerf for Rachel cause she's broken as all hell and that's what they are giving. I never said I agree with all of the changes, but they definitely did need to fix a lot. Keep in mind that most characters in the cast are receiving nerfs also.

taking out her ability to combo into frog AND increasing lag on 236B is just retarded. i could understand if they took out the ability to combo into frog midscreen, but increasing the lag on 236B destroys her mid screen combo - 5B, 5CDC, 236B dash 5B j.B j.C dj j.2C which not only does less damage than the midscreen frog combo but is a little harder to do.

The delay seems to be more intended as a zoning nerf, not a combo nerf, as I've seen BB:CS rachel combos listed along the lines of ~5cdc 236b air combo air iris.

decreasing hit stun on j.C and making j.2C not special cancel-able is also unnecessary. without j.C dj j.2C 214B she basically has no way to set up oki without wind midscreen. with the increase on the regeneration time on her wind, this fucks her up a lot.

The main reason for reducing the hitstun on j.c was how easily Rachel could go into a super from it, via both normal air combos and iad combos. As far as no oki, that's Arcsys' decision =/

i'll agree that j.3CD on block shouldn't be jump cancel-able or should cancel into j.C because if your opponent blocks correctly against this they shouldn't be rewarded with more high/low mixup pressure from rachel.

Yep.

3C was the only move that she has that gives her frame advantage and wasted one wind anyway so i don't see a need to make this -1 on block.

Rachel is able to continue pressure a lot longer than Arcsys wants her to. She doesn't need this.

rachel has some ridiculous stuff, but they didnt need to fcking destroy how she plays

Yes, they did, but a few of the changes were going too far IMO. See my list for a more reasonable nerf.

[Xtra_Zero]

I'd trade j.2C cancel on block for j.2C -> j.C working on crouchers on hit :D

[ArkiveZero]

i don't think i've ever heard anybody call rachel broken, because whenever they try to talk shit i tell them to pick up rachel. they end up not being able to play her because you have to work for the good shit. there's nothing wrong with rachel still being good because of the amount of work you have to put forth to be good.