Kurumster Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Just because you have to put effort forth to be good with her doesn't make her any less broken. Don't even try to use that as an argument.
Xtra_Zero Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Realistically, and I'm just talking here, assuming that there will never be perfect balance in a fighter and assuming balance is attempted, I think the more difficult characters should be the better ones. Really. Not that there isn't a line; there definitely is regardless of how hard something is to do, but if we're going to have characters that are better than others I think they should be the difficult ones.
Spirit Juice Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 I have a feeling CS Rachel is going to be synonymous with Slash Robo-Ky.
ArkiveZero Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Just because you have to put effort forth to be good with her doesn't make her any less broken. Don't even try to use that as an argument. in no way is rachel broken. she doesnt have a single match up where you completely dominate your opponent like the tager vs nu match up. its not impossible to get in on rachel and she has a bad time under pressure for the most part. her grounded hit box is also so big that the damage from combos done on her helps balance out the amount of damage she deals. good =/= broken i agree with xtra zero. you'd be crying so much harder if rachel was as easy as nu to play, so be grateful.
kro_ Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Realistically, and I'm just talking here, assuming that there will never be perfect balance in a fighter and assuming balance is attempted, I think the more difficult characters should be the better ones. Really. Not that there isn't a line; there definitely is regardless of how hard something is to do, but if we're going to have characters that are better than others I think they should be the difficult ones. I agree with you. Especially when those characters have interesting play styles. A lot of people often cite Yun, Eddie, and (more recently) Rachel. Characters like 3s Chun, sf4 Sagat, and Nu get a lot of hate. But how difficult a character is to play ceases to be a factor at high level. People don't make tier lists based on that. People stop being awed that you can use a difficult character and care more about how to beat you. If that's too hard to do consistently, then that character is still going to be classified as broken. Rachel is broken. And since they have the chance to balance things out they should do so. It's just that so far, they are totally going in the wrong direction. Rather than making certain aspects of her gameplay less abusable, they are completely forcing one half of her style of play on us that's actually weaker than the previous incarnation. in no way is rachel broken. she doesnt have a single match up where you completely dominate your opponent like the tager vs nu match up. Carl. Also, Rachel is broken. You don't even have to look at matchups to know that. Just look at what she can do and think about it for awhile. She can precede every mixup with a projectile via pumpkin or frog (think jab sonic boom and aegis reflector/doom assist). She's the only character with short hop/triangle jump style mixups. Best anti-air normal in the game. Zoning is effective against everyone except Nu. Her corner trap is almost as deadly as Arakune's. Actually has good midscreen oki. Pumpkin trades can cover mistakes. The amount of versatility she has naturally leads to unpredictability as well. Sure, her moves have relatively slow startup and range, she lacks a DP, and can't do much without wind. But the advantages here far outweigh the disadvantages. The way she is now, it is very possible to keep herself in an advantageous position throughout the entire match. It's almost expected.
Soniti Posted September 29, 2009 Author Posted September 29, 2009 I fully agree and support the above post. Well said, kro_.
Xtra_Zero Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 I agree that things aren't ok the way they are. I haven't reached the level of competency that you have, so I kind of have to take your word for it. But I can't help but think that there's got to be a better way. Rachel as she is now is extremely complicated and almost every move of hers has a very important use. Removing or changing her tools in most cases not only makes her worse, but totally changes the way she plays. Because of the complexity of the combination of the game physics and the wind, Rachel also seems to escape the "shoehorning" problem that other characters seem to have. All the other characters seem to have been "played out" already, while I'm completely certain that there are things we haven't discovered with Rachel. It would seem to me that Rachel is kind of at a perfect or near perfect level here that Arcsys should be aiming at for other characters instead of chopping such a beutifully designed character into little bits in order to bring her down to their level. How about just removing one of her wind bars? I think that kind of serves the purpose quite nicely. Rachel needs wind to rush and the common complaint is basically that she rushes for too long.
Spirit Juice Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Thread is getting off topic. Deleting posts is looking awfully tempting right about now!
Discotheque Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 5B->j3CD was getting old anyways. Time to practice 5B->j3DA->jB mix-ups. After playing as Rachel for like forever and playing against friends, its obvious that Rachel is OP. For many small reasons that kro_ covered. Frog not dying in one hit? Retarded. Should be like Diz fish. 6A safe on whiff? Retarded. Every mix-ups lead to oki/corner pressure? Retarded. But I really, really wish they keep the pressure portion of her game with pumpkin. Probably the most fun and unique thing about Rachel IS her wind mechanic, and to have Arksys replace it as a mechanic solely used as zoning tool is really lame.
agp24 Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 Eh. The frog not dying in one hit is pretty bad, but with the way it's supposed to crawl instead of hop now? Too easy to hit.
ilikeusingdizzy Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 despite all these nerfs,i look forward to the next combo thread.
Spirit Juice Posted September 29, 2009 Posted September 29, 2009 despite all these nerfs,i look forward to the next combo thread. Here's a preview: x100000
Soniti Posted September 30, 2009 Author Posted September 30, 2009 Updated the first post with a bunch of additional nerfs, particularly related to 6a, frog, and pumpkin. IMO all of these nerfs leave her at absolute garbage status, nearly unplayable. I don't want to play her anymore, at least. Hopefully they un-nerf her somewhat at the next location test...
Emerald Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 I believe that they have intentionally over nerfed her on purpose. There was a saying once I liked and it said "It is easier to tone something down, than it is to ramp up" meaning if they over nerf her and slowly remove nerfs, it will end up being easier (and by extension, better) than by slowly adding nerfs. I agree that these changes are over the top, but here is hoping it is just as I purposed above. Specifically I am concerned with her game as it relies on corner and Okizeme strategies more than it does zoning from long range so if they intend for her to be more like that, she would need more new moves than a ranged Distortion drive.
gasconron Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 I'm seriously disappointed with the nerfs that came Rachel's way. She was a strong character, but not even close to the boundaries of being broken. At least for my experience when playing against her in a mirror match, she doesn't give off a feel of hopelessness that you get when going toe-to-toe against v13 or arakune. J2C: As for all the changes involved with this, she loses a lot of her potential to apply pressure on her opponents. Rachel was made to be defensive in the first place since she takes a lot of damage and has very little counter-attack options, and even less effective ones. To compensate for this she was given a good high-low options to take advantage when she is given an opportunity to. Ragna and Noel will completely (for the lack of words to better express myself, mods, please forgive me) f*** her up in the a** without lube, HARD. With these changes, the high-low mixup game goes down the drain. Making J2C more punishable than it already is, will leave her widely open when blocked or avoided. - - gg arksys. Lobelia: when I saw that they were going to increase recovery time, I just shook my head. As if it had a good recovery time in the first place. so the standard 5B,CD,5C,236B,22C or 632146C (and the rest of its more complex variations) now goes down the drain? So, first you can't combo to or from a Frog and now you can't combo into a Lobelia setup? Really? - - So I suppose arksys thought that one zoning character wasn't enough, and decided to add a new, but inferior one to its ranks? Rachel's combo game just went completely down the drain... She no longer deserves the title as "Head of the Alucard Family." Her butler Valhaym would probably woop her ass till kingdom come. 6B & 6A: The bad only becomes worse... 2 of her high priority moves were completely revamped. - 6B was mainly for the poking game to punish those overly aggressive chars on a counter. It is also one of her main tools give her that "window of opportunity" as I mentioned previously about Rachel's waiting game playstyle. Not being able to do her BB combos after this poke isn't really well justified. Seeing as the recovery for this move isn't exactly the best and is punishable with really devastating combos, and this moves comes with the risk of increasing her hitbox and leaving her open to counter DD finishes - 6A, mainly used as her anti air, will now lose to most jump in attacks. I guess Arakune will now have his way with Rachel more than he used to. great, just great... Pumpkin: the only thing i will miss with the changes applied to it is the fact that i wont be able to trade off with Nu anymore, and the sword combo will shred Rachel players more than it already did in the past. Although, I may be wrong since I heard Nu (or Lambda) received some nasty nerfs too. The Frog: Now has it's own life meter - that's fine Shorter activation range - this is a reasonable nerf, although I will miss its ability to catch mid-to-low airborne characters for a setup. No longer activates while the opponent is down - I'm assuming that this is the change that refers to Rachel not being able to combo off a frog...this is probably what hurts the most, as it greatly affects Rachel's combo potential. The frog no longer jumps - i'm quite undecided with this since I am seeing potential with it especially when you have a pumpkin out, about to throw lobelia and a frog sliding at decent speeds. although the fact that it crawls at snails pace definitely is bad Cannot summon another frog while one is active - corner trap now goes bye-bye. This is primarily one of the reasons why Rachel was a strong character. And this is definitely why she was a goddess at corners, probably only 2nd to Arakune's corner bell+bug trap. This was what defined Rachel as one of the chars at the top, and now that it's gone a major source of her playstyle's strength go down the drain. Combo damage: with the exception of stacking poles and 2x baden baden lily, most of Rachel's combo damage, isn't as strong as people make them to be. In comparison to the combos dealt by Ragna, Noel loops, Arakune cursed combos, Jin pressure, V13 rapids and/or counters, Litchi mid-screens and even Tager's various simple combos, the damage Rachel deals in while in combo mode is below average. It's her potential to mixup, trap and pressure on a combo reset is what makes her strong... but not the damage. What was arksys thinking? They turned every good thing about Rachel laughable. Did they have a grudge against her or something? Maybe implementing some of these changes was okay to balance out character strengths...BUT TO TAKE ALL OF HER POSITIVES and throw it out the garbage can, is what left me speechless, disappointed and pissed, all at the same time. I guess, I am ranting or whining, but what arksys did to my fav player was severe injustice.
EvilWolf Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 http://s1.zetaboards.com/blazblue/topic/2339886/1/#new First Location Test report, aka a complete slap in the faces of us Rachel players. It's stated in there she's now the WORST character in the game. I think her new super tempest dahlia is going to be useless since it uses up all of her wind and in addition to her wind having a slower recharge now.
ArkiveZero Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 i'm hoping they were just fucking with us in a bad joke taken too far kind of way.
ryokoalways Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Developers came to the conclusion that she needs to be nerfed, it's just that she happened to have many things that could be nerfed to balance her out, so they tried all of them together. Chill about this loc test, it doesn't mean anything other than they want to nerf her. Arcsys always applies a lot of buff/nerf in loc test but they never break the game once it hits the arcade (with the exception of slash robo ky. RIP).
Discotheque Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Chill about this loc test Really guys. The only thing we don't want is to have Rachel use wind solely for zoning, because then she'll be a BORING character to use. At this moment, that's my biggest gripe about these "nerfs" because it makes her game too linear. As long as she is still fun to play and somewhat viable in competitive play, then I'm all up for it.
zaeris Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 Developers came to the conclusion that she needs to be nerfed, it's just that she happened to have many things that could be nerfed to balance her out, so they tried all of them together. Chill about this loc test, it doesn't mean anything other than they want to nerf her. Arcsys always applies a lot of buff/nerf in loc test but they never break the game once it hits the arcade (with the exception of slash robo ky. RIP). And yet everyone forgets about Slash Dizzy...
zaeris Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 Dizzy wasn't unplayable. That is really quite subjective..... "unplayable" if you want to use that as a case for Rachel.. In essence we look what the changes have done and to what extent it affects her game play.. In slash it remove most of dizzy damage combo with proration and remove special cancel off 2d while making fish disappear on hit and if we look at from a ggx to ggxx. I will just leave it at that. Rachel is not unplayable if you're trying to make a case, she is crap and bottom tier but unplayable I wouldn't lable her as such. Dizzy went from A -> D tier. Its rather irrevelent.. moving on.
ryokoalways Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 No, Rachel in this loc test is unplayable at a high level. Robo ky was unplayable in slash at a high level. Dizzy wasn't, she was just low-mid tier.
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