[CS1] Noel Guide

[kiunch]

I was in training mode trying corner 3C and throw combo on first post to different characters, any suggestion/comment will be great...

-Most of the cast-

as listed in the first post,

3C/throw to 22C, 66C, 4D, 236D, 6C, (22B, 22BC, 6C)x2, 5D, d. 5B, d. 5C, SJC. D, 6D, 236D, fenrir works perfectly with little effort.

-Litchi, Ragnar, Bang-

On the 6C after 236D, and the 6C after first 22B, 22BC loop, make sure to hold forward slightly before pressing C, so Noel walk a small step forward before 6C coming out. If Noel doesn't do a step forward on both of the 6C, you can only do 1 loop, 2 loop if you see her step forward both time successfully.

On throw, it is easier to just Throw, 22BC, 6C, 22B, 22BC, 66C, 4D, 236D, 6C, 22B, 22BC, 6C.... finisher

It does a 50 less damage than doing 2 loops after 236D, but it is very easy to connect, doesn't require to step forward.

-Carl, Hazama, Tsubaki-

For throw, use the same combo as the one for litchi.

For Tsubaki, just do the normal throw corner combo, but only do 1 loop, she is not worth it.

After 3C I have problem connecting 2 loops after 236C, so I used 3C, 22C, 66C (delay), 4D (delay), d.6C, d.2D, 623D, 66C, J.D, (d.6D), 4D, 236D, 66C, finisher.

This combo is hard to do on most of the cast because d.6C has a very tricky timing, but for some reason the timing is easy on Carl, Tsubaki, and Hazama. Since they are hard to do loop in the corner, especially online, this will be a safer combo on them.

I also didn't test anything for Tao, I ran out of energy.

------

For finisher, after 2 full loops, it is easier to do 6C, JD, 6D, d.6B, d.5B, 5C, 236D, fenrir

For characters like Lambda, somehow she can tech after d.6B, so you can try, 6C, 5D, (slight delay) d.5B, d.5C, jc J.D, 6D, 236D, fenrir.

It really doesn't matter which order you do those loops, or which finisher you use, at the end of the combo, every moves will only do like 50 damages each.

------

Another topic, anyone ever tried to play wake up game after combo fenrir at the corner? I tried 6a after fenrir, then cancel into 6C, 6C will hit if they don't barrier block, it worked a few times for me.If they know to barrier block, just JC the 6a and throw them. Most of the time they will neutral tech and 6C will whiff (is it depended on character hit box?), but the second gun hit of 6C will get him. I also had a tager forward tech, and then 360 me while my 6C whiff........

[Ichipoo]

I know this has been said already but I too think it's time for a NEW CS Noel guide. There's a lot of great stuff that has been postsed recently from Chain Revolver Oki to 4k combos that DON'T involve the 623D 66C link and I think it would be best if we compiled all of that in a new thread.

/$1-$0.98

[Dorian]

Divide a dollar minus 98 cents?

I slept through math in high school, boringly easy.

Real talk a new guide would be shiny.

[DC]

For all of the Noel players we have, right?

[kiunch]

For all of the Noel players we have, right?

Rachel section has one, so why not.

[Hellmonkey]

Current guide is littered with misinformation

[Doom Dragon 103]

Rachel section has one, so why not.

+1

[dragontamer]

Here's my thoughts on a new CS guide.

Audience : We need to assume absolute beginners here. People who don't know zoning, pokes, and so forth. The current guide is written for CT players transitioning over to CS. We are at the point where we have new Noel players in this community who haven't played CT. With that said, I would prefer the outline to be "the correct way of thinking" when playing a fighting game. IE: Here's your options in the air. Here are your poking options.

A "Weird / Experimental Stuff" section would be useful for getting beginning players up to speed to where current Noel Strategy Discussion is. However, this section is low-priority because the majority of players don't care about figuring stuff out on their own. So.... Chain Revolver Oki / Resets may go in here, as well as d.5C -> 2147A, d.5C -> 228 B and so forth. Stuff that isn't "solid play", but deserve mention.

Here's my idea of an outline.

* Moves Rundown

** Pokes (5A, 5B, 5C...). Gotta mention Noel's poor hitbox / priority here.

** Mixups (lol. 6B / 2B does count as a mixup... kinda...)

** Pressure Strings (warn against chain revolver. Note Counter-hit setups like 2A -> 5C and 5A -> 2C. The 2B cross under vs Emergency Tech trick. 5D BC Kara-throw)

** Anti-Pressure: 6A (anti-air), 4D, 5D, importance of instant-block

** Oki (Meaty 6B. 2B punishing rolls. 662B crossing under Emergency Tech / Neutral Tech. Combos that lead to Oki)

* Combo Rundown

** I like how Tekken Forums organize their combos. You organize them by frames. IE: you list your most powerful 5-frame punishes (5A -> 6A -> etc. etc.). Then your most powerful 10 frame punishes, etc. etc. For example:

6-Frames: 5A -> 6A -> blah. Maybe 5D can count as a 5-frame punish (invincible on frame 4 afterall...)

9-Frames: 6C (Counter) -> 3C -> blah. 6C (Counter) -> 5D -> blah. 6C -> 2C (no counter). Throw -> blah.

20-frames :3C -> 22BC -> blah

Anti-Low: 2D -> blah

Anti-Air: 6A -> 6C -> blah. 6A -> 5C -> blah.

** We should also note mixup options. 2B -> 6A -> blah as a low. Options off of d.6D, d.6B, and 6B. Some combos are useful because they punish opponents doing stupid shit. Some combos on the other hand are useful on the offensive. This is where throw combos would be.

* Character Specific Matchup information ... I'm not comfortable writing this. It takes a lot of experience to write something correct here. Maybe some basic tips like 5C loses to Tager's Sledge, and 5D beats a lot of slow stuff slow like B Sledge... 4D beating Gauntlet Hades. But nothing very detailed like the current guide.

********************

Things not to include in the guide:

1. Chain Revolver Oki : Lets be honest, too early to recommend this to everyone. Lets play it out a bit more, I have my own topic anyway for discussion. With wakeup-supers and wakeup-reversals being a tool of everyone, its a bit "weak" to include it in a general purpose guide.

2. Detailed Character Matchups : Obvious and Broad Character Matchup info is useful. But I don't want anything super-detailed. If we are aiming at a beginner, the tips wouldn't really apply to him anyway, because beginners don't know how to wakeup Inferno Divider anyway.

3. Chain Revolver Pressure: While I think this has promise, I don't think I have enough experience yet to write a pressure guide. Again, there's another topic dedicated to this discussion, so thats where this sort of thing should go.

1 and 3 might go into a "weird stuff" section, but I don't consider it solid enough to actually place in a serious guide yet. Basically, lets have a simple, boring guide that sticks with the books. A guide is not the place for silly experimental gimmicks.

[archling]

How about you wait until bbcs2 comes out?

[Sahgren]

How about you wait until bbcs2 comes out?

If you mean wait till it's demonstrated at one of the game shows, then I'd be fine with waiting. CS2 comes out in the winter though; that'd be an awful long time to wait to put a new guide up.

[dragontamer]

Do we even know if BBCS2 will have the balance patch? Last I checked, Platinum isn't even confirmed for BBCS2 yet. Even then, Winter can be as early as December or as late as Feburary. In the worst case, if this guide gets written by say, two weeks from now, thats still all of October / November to utilize the guide.

Overall, the state of the Noel community is pretty grim. And I don't think its a matter of high tier / low tier stuff: Tager players are better at finding new Tager shit than we are, with new tech traps and double-gadget finger, they've continuously innovated Tager.

What have we done here that truely advanced the state of Noel? And don't say there ain't stuff out there, I've got other experiments in the works involving the Chain Revolver Oki stuff... try out 6A -> 6C -> (delayed) j.D -> d.6A -> d.6B whiff -> (delayed) d.6C for crossed under Chain Revolver Oki. Remove the delay and do 6A -> 6C -> (non-delayed) j.D -> d.6A -> d.6C for standard Chain Revolver Oki). I don't fully understand it yet (sometimes it doesn't seem to crossunder, doesn't seem to work on Tager... etc. etc) ... but there's a ton of potential here.

Anyway, a guide is the first step towards that. We, as a community, need to know the highest level of known Noel play out there. Only then, we can start looking for ways to improve the "ideal Noel playstyle".

[DC]

I think we should just wait until Noel is a viable character.

The Tager boards have a thread full of gimmicks because Tager's gimmicks cannot always be beaten by simply blocking, whereas "Chain Revolver oki" is almost ALWAYS punishable by just waking up and holding back like you're supposed to.

[dragontamer]

I think we should just wait until Noel is a viable character.

The Tager boards have a thread full of gimmicks because Tager's gimmicks cannot always be beaten by simply blocking, whereas "Chain Revolver oki" is almost ALWAYS punishable by just waking up and holding back like you're supposed to.

Wrong, the Tager boards are full of gimmicks because they have disccusion and actively research his character. And some of those gimmicks become viable, like double-Gadget Rapid AC into ~2k damage + Gadget Oki.

We sit around and pretend like we have no fucking options what so ever, despite being apparently a better character than Tager (according to Japan). I for one am tired of this.

EDIT: Also, d.6C -> d.5B. Learn it, love it. Its a solid blockstring even on instant-block and pushes opponents away.

[DC]

She has decent damage but absolutely no mixup. She will lose against patient players. There is almost no reason to respect her other than the fact that you might hit her iframes if she's mashing buttons.

Imo Tager and Tsubaki are both better characters, but people see Noel do 5k in the corner and are amazed.

[dragontamer]

Whatever, you've always been the pessimist here, so I know I won't convince you.

Moving on, if there's anything important that needs to go into the new Noel Guide, start posting it. See my post here for an idea of what I'm thinking.

[archling]

lol, tsubaki is shit, sorry. Tager is a better char yeah. And I have plenty of chars/mixups that i use that work. =).. just doesn't work against mashers.

[DC]

Idk Icekid plays a really good Tsubaki and her mixup seems amazing. Damage sucks though, lmao. She apparently has a fuzzy guard.

Btw somebody help me think of a theme for this combo movie.

[dragontamer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjAhuvyUoSs

Touhou == Bullet Hell shooter. Works well with Noel. As far as the song itself, it has a clear intro and middle, great for a combo video with the format "Intro" -> "Combos". The music clearly changes and remains interesting for a few minutes, despite the fact that it loops.

EDIT: Above is the boss fight, which is why its short. The stage music is a bit longer and is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4mYiJDrbUE

[Runis]

I've found quite a few gimmick tech traps but the only problem is that they only really work if they're mashing. Granted if they are mashing tech, they work quite well, otherwise they put ou at a massive disadvantage that a good player will capitalise on.

[wighti]

I'd recommend this for a vid, not that long tho. (Yes, I'm a fanboy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzavbV0a3X0

[whitevoid]

Do we even know if BBCS2 will have the balance patch? Last I checked, Platinum isn't even confirmed for BBCS2 yet. Even then, Winter can be as early as December or as late as Feburary. In the worst case, if this guide gets written by say, two weeks from now, thats still all of October / November to utilize the guide.

Overall, the state of the Noel community is pretty grim. And I don't think its a matter of high tier / low tier stuff: Tager players are better at finding new Tager shit than we are, with new tech traps and double-gadget finger, they've continuously innovated Tager.

What have we done here that truely advanced the state of Noel? And don't say there ain't stuff out there, I've got other experiments in the works involving the Chain Revolver Oki stuff... try out 6A -> 6C -> (delayed) j.D -> d.6A -> d.6B whiff -> (delayed) d.6C for crossed under Chain Revolver Oki. Remove the delay and do 6A -> 6C -> (non-delayed) j.D -> d.6A -> d.6C for standard Chain Revolver Oki). I don't fully understand it yet (sometimes it doesn't seem to crossunder, doesn't seem to work on Tager... etc. etc) ... but there's a ton of potential here.

Anyway, a guide is the first step towards that. We, as a community, need to know the highest level of known Noel play out there. Only then, we can start looking for ways to improve the "ideal Noel playstyle".

I doubt we'll see a balance patch until sometime after all the DLC characters are released.

"Ideal Noel playstyle..." I really think this is the core reason why Noel is underused/ragged on, when she's fundamentally not that bad. She just doesn't really have a dominant playstyle. She doesn't have tricky gimmicks or spammy moves that she can crutch on. This means that she requires a lot of knowledge of opposing characters. It's easy to figure out Noel. These are her lows, and theses are her overheads. What else is there?

But other characters are not so easy to figure out. But once you do figure them out for the most part she isn't all that bad. It's just that a character's style would typically limit the opposing character's style, but since Noel can't really do that she is in a position to have to learn more of their style than they do of hers. Which makes her feel weak, and in a certain manner of speaking be weak, but on the other hand once you do have it figured out, she's not really all that bad.

[LunaKage]

snip

What? the whole reason she sucks is that she is "Fundamentally" Bad, her pokes get stuffed by everything, and the only thing she can rely on is her terribly unsafe Drive moves. If you know your opponent well you can 5D through his shit, but if they blocked the 5D, then Noel starts shitting herself. Her 6B is a terrible overhead because its easy to spot and is predictable, since it can only gatling from 5A, 6A, 5B, and 2A, and she doesn't give her opponent a reason to block high for the rest of her blockstrings because the threat of the 2D overhead is gone.

Funny thing about that, even though 2D has been nerfed I still see alot of people bitching about it.

[dragontamer]

I doubt we'll see a balance patch until sometime after all the DLC characters are released.

"Ideal Noel playstyle..." I really think this is the core reason why Noel is underused/ragged on, when she's fundamentally not that bad. She just doesn't really have a dominant playstyle. She doesn't have tricky gimmicks or spammy moves that she can crutch on. This means that she requires a lot of knowledge of opposing characters. It's easy to figure out Noel. These are her lows, and theses are her overheads. What else is there?

Standing Resets, like 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> sjc -> j.D -> d.5A -> d.6B / d.6D / d.6C -- 1-frame overhead standing reset / 6-frame low standing reset / Guard Crush reset.

I mean, come on, we have something like 15 chain revolver attacks, which makes 921,984 different chain revolver strings, not counting the d.5C -> sjc -> j.D link to cheat our way into a longer combo string. With 1-frame overhead resets off of any d.5D, d.2D, and d.5A... you honestly can't tell me that this character is "easy to figure out".

Meh, maybe I'll be the only one researching the Chain Revolver strings. I'll keep you guys up to date about what I find... but really... I could use some help I'm sure theres a ton of shit that I haven't figured out yet.

[LunaKage]

Standing Resets, like 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> sjc -> j.D -> d.5A -> d.6B / d.6D / d.6C -- 1-frame overhead standing reset / 6-frame low standing reset / Guard Crush reset.

I mean, come on, we have something like 15 chain revolver attacks, which makes 921,984 different chain revolver strings, not counting the d.5C -> sjc -> j.D link to cheat our way into a longer combo string. With 1-frame overhead resets off of any d.5D, d.2D, and d.5A... you honestly can't tell me that this character is "easy to figure out".

Meh, maybe I'll be the only one researching the Chain Revolver strings. I'll keep you guys up to date about what I find... but really... I could use some help I'm sure theres a ton of shit that I haven't figured out yet.

I wish I didn't have to push D so much...

Also we have 12 CR attacks, counting j.D and j.4D.

[dragontamer]

And 3 finishers. 236D, 623D, and 214D.

6 On the normals, 4 on D, 2 in the air, and 3 finishers. Not including 214A and 236A/B/C (I guess 5 finishers...)