[CS1] Tsubaki Simple Questions and Answers Thread (Read the guides first!)

[TD]

Ragna does all of this without charge btw.

[Slayer Alucard]

So basically, 214D and 623D really don't gain anything over their normal versions? That's really depressing.

214D is combo filler. Doing 22D > 6C > 214D > launcher > air combo does 4k, it's also way faster than 214C. It has its uses in combos when it's required.

623D has more invincibility than 623A, but it's no Inferno Divider. I still only use 623A for DP purposes. It really only shines in Mugen combos both midscreen and corner, cause it adds an awesome chunk of damage if all 3 hits connect. You can use it as a reversal if you want, but I stick to IB>623A

[Airk]

So basically, 214D and 623D really don't gain anything over their normal versions? That's really depressing.

214D is combo filler. Doing 22D > 6C > 214D > launcher > air combo does 4k, it's also way faster than 214C. It has its uses in combos when it's required.

Okay; I guess I just have a certain amount of distaste for moves that are -only- useful inside of combos.

623D has more invincibility than 623A, but it's no Inferno Divider.

I have to question this a little. According to the frame data, 623A is invincible from frames 1-9, and airborne after frame 8. 623D is invincible from frames 1-10 and airborne at frame 10. I'm not really sure if the airborne frames really matter for this, but the invincibility frames are pretty clear - you get a single frame more invincibility from 623D. Technically, I guess that means that all the startup frames are invincible, but it's still an extremely small difference, and it doesn't seem like it would be sufficient to guarantee a trade. Honestly, I think this is one place Tsubaki could really be improved and improved easily - giving her a lot of invincibility on 623D stands next to no risk of being a problem since charge is such a limited resource.

I can't help but feel that giving Tsubaki's drive moves more kick would help put her up on a more level playing field. Right now it feels like her drive almost gets in the way.

I still only use 623A for DP purposes. It really only shines in Mugen combos both midscreen and corner, cause it adds an awesome chunk of damage if all 3 hits connect.

I was confused by this for a bit - according to the frame data (Sorry for all the Theory fighting.) 623D does 430x3 (1,290) damage, vs 1,000 even for A/B/C. That's only 290 more damage even before we start talking about proration. But then I noticed that 623D prorates at 80/100 vs 50/70 for the other versions, so that's significant, at least.

Indeed, it seems like a the D versions of her moves prorate much better than their normal alternatives, which is nice. Still doesn't stop me from wishing for more oomph though.

[LaPengo]

Started to play more now that I've got some time ~

Played some matchs recently and I'm curious what other options we have (besides Blocking) to deal with A Mashers and alike.

It seems to me, even though 5B is a good poke along with 2C for AA; I seem to be still beaten by a lot of things if I try to CH, so I go back to blocking and wait for a really unsafe move.

Don't wish to play like Baiken, but what are some other options to possibly fish out CHs or even out-poke?

[Ginseng]

You have none. Deal with it, or switch characters :X

[Rachis]

@Tempest Dhalia

While Ragna may have better normals than Tsubaki and specials that get the job done in a similar fashion, he does not have access to the speed Tsubaki has nor does he have charge canceling. Tsubaki is faster and has a much better mixup. Tsubaki may require more hits than most of the cast, but she has the tools to get those hits as well.

@LaPengo

Your own 5A/2A have 6 frame startups. Very useful for getting out of blockstrings in the right places. A successful 5A/2A will give you your 5BB combo. Damage will be prorated down to 1600's, but that's a freebie for getting the opponent off of you. Because of this I would refrain from doing anything else off of 5A/2A under pressure. Don't need to be wasting charges for significantly less damage.

[redsilversnake]

@Tempest Dhalia

Tsubaki is faster and has a much better mixup.

Wait, what? No, she doesn't. She has one standing overhead, whereas Ragna has two (granted, one of them's a special, but still), and her's is as easily blocked on reaction as any other.

[Konton]

@Tempest Dhalia

While Ragna may have better normals than Tsubaki and specials that get the job done in a similar fashion, he does not have access to the speed Tsubaki has nor does he have charge canceling. Tsubaki is faster and has a much better mixup. Tsubaki may require more hits than most of the cast, but she has the tools to get those hits as well.

Ragna doesn't need speed because his 5b shuts everyone down anyway and his pressure actually leads to massive damage.

[MisoSowee]

Anyone have tips against unl haz? This guy is a beast vs tsubaki >_<

[Manta]

Spam 3CC combos. It's cheap, it's stupid, but until they develop an adaptive beat-em-up AI that's the way it will always be.

[MisoSowee]

Oh 3cc works? I was under the impression i'd get insta dp'd o_O

I shall try the next time I climb up to haz again (yes I gave up :[)

[Airk]

Wait, what? No, she doesn't. She has one standing overhead, whereas Ragna has two (granted, one of them's a special, but still), and her's is as easily blocked on reaction as any other.

Sad but true. =/ Remind me again why none of her airborne specials hit high?

[Zeo.]

Right, this may even sound like a forum troll, but i have a few questions, started playing tsubaki round about last week. Today had a little session with a few players from SVB and obviously got destroyed. but icouldnt grasp the concept of charge canceling, like how does it work exactly, and isit safe? and another thing is her 236 A/B/C are any of them safer than others? and apart from rapid canceling them is there any other way to throw them into the mix, or to end a combo safely without being punished during a block string. man any other advise about tsubaki and charge canceling and safe manouvers would be a big help THANKS!

P.S with instal, does it increase overal damage output or only damage for specials like DP C/D and with that said, what is the increase, isit significant enough to priorities charging?

[Slayer Alucard]

Could've asked all this in the Q and A thread instead of making another topic that'll possibly be locked.

To answer your questions though, charge canceling is only practical if you've conditioned your opponent to block. You can attempt gimmicky frame traps and keep your cancels quick and clean to make it look safe, but you're not at an advantage when you use it. Throw it as a mix up only if you're sure the other guy won't retaliate.

None of her 236 moves but 236D are safe, even on counter hit. Save it for combo filler, or if you want to get in with 236D

[Zeo.]

Thanks slayer.

so what would be the safest way to play tsubaki during a B.S, like whats the safest way to end or maintain pressure

[Slayer Alucard]

If the opponent blocks an unsafe normal or IBs it, you can try to charge cancel into and then block or run away. Her specials are not used for pressure, as her 22 specials are the only somewhat safe ones. Best normals to end on block is 3C, 5B, and 6C, though you can always go for more mix ups and throws if you feel it's safe to do.

[Zeo.]

Sweet because iwas getting continously punished because iwas doing 5BB>2BB>5CC>6C>236B/C and on block icouldnt get in for 214b/c so my block strings were just getting dismantled LOL mainly because idont know her playing style and for some reason ikept thinking there was gnna be a different outcome, although ifelt 214 is slightly safer than 236 as its recover time is a tiny bit faster allowing me to continue into another combo, finding it hard to through in a 22 tho

[Slayer Alucard]

Combos are not blockstrings. You can't expect to do a full combo when the other guy is blocking, that's not how it works. It's like saying Ragna's 5B>5C>HF BnB is a blockstring. 214A is only safe at tip range on normal block, 214C is safe but way too slow to be practical, and I dunno about 214B. I don't see how it's hard to do 22C, you don't have to go through all of her specials to do it.

[Zeo.]

naw iknow that, mixed up my lingo abit there, and imean 22 seems pretty predictable, maybe its just the way ive been playing her, im gnna check some vids, anythin ud suggest?

[Slayer Alucard]

I dunno, there's not a whole lot to get creative with in Tsubaki, that's kind of why she's terrible lol. I just try to stick to the book. 6A for high, 3C for low, 6C for jc shenanigans, and then toss in some throws, 6B, lvl 3 22D once in awhile. There's not much opportunities to truly be aggressive unless you can really shutdown the other guy's pressure with good blocking, so don't rush your charge cancels unless you're keeping it simple with something like 5C cc > tip range 5B > 3C.

[STenSatsu]

Generally you can end a blockstring with a Charge Cancel, jumping, or 22c. 5c or 5cc are usually the best things to charge cancel. Generally don't charge cancel after 5b or 2b since it leaves you worse off frame wise than just letting the move end. 5a, 5b, 3c, 6c are your jcable normals on block. However, it is quite easy to get hit out of 5b>3c or 5b>6c if you get to predicatble with either or both. Same thing with ending with 22c, try to be farther away when you do it cause I'm pretty sure they can dp mash you out of it or even ib it and then you can get popped with an 8 frame move if they are in range. (Bang 5a, litchi 5a, ragna 5b for example.) Overall you have to mix stuff up and sometimes just stop the blockstring and block if they have a good reversal (or jump in Tager's case) since if you do anything after 5b they can ib it or the 5b and dp out if you don't give em some fear first. Show reversals some respect because people usually won't show you any as Tsubaki since you get like 2k if they fuck up the reversal.

[Slayer Alucard]

Lol, Bang's 5A is 5f. 8f jabs would be the crappiest thing ever.

I have to disagree on canceling 2B/5B moves being a bad idea though. 5C/5CC is more predictable than any other move when cc'ed, canceling 5BB or 2B actually gives you the better shot at the cancel not being mashed out of. It all comes to getting the other guy to block though in the long run.

[STenSatsu]

Ya, I was just giving examples of things you could get hit by (8f and faster) that you really don't want to be lol. I didn't say never to cc them, but you are in a worse position if you do then if you just let it end. It's ok for unpredictability's sake though. For reference ccing 5b leaves you at 0 instead of +1 no biggie and ccing 2b leaves you at -3 which is a big deal imo since ib gets you punished by normals and those frames are assuming first frame possible ccing. Not ccing them is much less possible to fuck up and safer.

[Dullyanna]

I've got a quick one: I can't seem to land Tsubaki's throw, 5BB etc combo on Hazama. The second B always whiffs for me, and if I just do it without it the j.CC whiffs most of the time. Is it due to my crappy execution or does he just out-troll Tsubaki by screwing up her BnBs?

[STenSatsu]

Can just do 5b>sj.bc>etc which works for most I think. Some characters have super thin horizontal hitboxes.