Shining Aquas Posted February 20, 2010 Posted February 20, 2010 Russian FRCs? Oh wow. Conversation sigged. Though I'm pretty sure Potemkin's the only one Russian enough to do the Soviet FRC (Fancy Random Cancel)
farranpoison Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 For me, it's feel; after hitting someone with Baiken's tatami mat, May's dolphins or Dizzy's 2HS I can get out a FRC about 80% of the time. Practice, practice, and more practice makes FRC's easier. The only FRC that I've never been able to master with the characters I use, though, is Dizzy's Icespike FRC. So many hours in practice and still I can't get it down...
excelence Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 For me, it's feel; after hitting someone with Baiken's tatami mat, May's dolphins or Dizzy's 2HS I can get out a FRC about 80% of the time. Practice, practice, and more practice makes FRC's easier. The only FRC that I've never been able to master with the characters I use, though, is Dizzy's Icespike FRC. So many hours in practice and still I can't get it down... This has it own thread on Dizzy's board ... the timing for this frc point is fun ... change on whiff/hit/blocked/ch
EternalLurker Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 *sigh* I really, really hate FRCs. It wouldn't subtract any depth/complexity from the game were most FRCs 8-10 frames instead of 2. Artificial barriers to mastery of a game do not automatically make it better. The existence of 2-frame FRCs singlehandedly kills a good chunk of the fun of practicing GG.
Frank The Tank Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Artificial barriers to mastery of a game do not automatically make it better. For such a potentially powerful technique to exist, it needs to be somewhat difficult to do. The stuff that FRCs let you get away with make it necessary for them to be hard to do. You start making things that are that powerful easy to accomplish and you end up with SF4. I practice FRCs by replicating the situations in which I want to do them; this compensates for the differences in timing you get sometimes. It depends on the FRC tho. The fact is that you have to practice to get good at FRCs, combos, pressure, etc...but once you learn how to do them initially, you don't need to practice them nearly as often. Practice isn't for fun; it's for making the game more fun.
Nakkiel Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 It wouldn't subtract any depth/complexity from the game were most FRCs 8-10 frames instead of 2. It absolutely would. Not only can depth or complexity be attributed to the amount of practice you need to put in, but the strong options FRCs give you should not be accessible to those who aren't to put in the time for it. You do realize that larger FRC windows would mean most FRCs would become useless/way too good right? EX: Millia's S disc could be FRC 'd AFTER it came out. HOS' Gunblaze FRC would be way too easy for what it gives you. Jam's 2D FRC would make it piss-easy to combo off of, Potemkin 2HS and 6HS would be utterly manly (Level 6 w/FRC? lol) etc. Some things would just not work/be balanced.
Blade Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 I'm surprised no-one said this, but if you unlock Extra Menu and activate "Easy FRCs", you have several settings: 5: (Adds an extra 5+ frames to all FRC points and gives those frames a "blue-ish" tint.) 10: (Adds an extra 10+ frames and turns them blue) 15: (Adds an extra 15+ frames and turns them blue) 20: (Adds an extra 20+ frames and turns them blue) I highly suggest at least looking at the 5 setting. Turning that on in training mode, then try and hit pause+select so you can visually "memorize" the blue active frame you're supposed to FRC on. Once you're sure you can do it...turn off Easy FRC and see if you can do it without it, and THEN try using it in combos. That should help I believe.
Hellmonkey Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 *sigh* I really, really hate FRCs. It wouldn't subtract any depth/complexity from the game were most FRCs 8-10 frames instead of 2. Artificial barriers to mastery of a game do not automatically make it better. The existence of 2-frame FRCs singlehandedly kills a good chunk of the fun of practicing GG. FRCs are one of the easier things to learn in GG, if you're hitting a wall there maybe the game is too hard for you. It's like practicing shooting a basketball and saying the hoop is too small to make it fun.
Nakkiel Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 The way I do it is with Extra Menu (which I believe you get after reaching a certain point in Survival Mode) in Training Mode. I set Easy FRC to 15, then memorise where to hit the buttons and how to time it. Once I get that down, I reduce it to either 10 or 5 and repeat it. Once I've got that down, I disable it and go by timing alone. Once that's done, I then practice it in matches.
EternalLurker Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 You do realize that larger FRC windows would mean most FRCs would become useless/way too good right? EX: Millia's S disc could be FRC 'd AFTER it came out....Some things would just not work/be balanced.I'm not referring to cases where extending the window would fundamentally change the mechanics of the FRC; I said "most" for a reason. Such cases are rare anyway. In the example you give, the FRC window can be at least 4 frames longer without allowing her to FRC after the disc comes out; I think it's more like 6 IIRC. Another simple example: there's an FRC at the top of Chipp's Beta Blade to speed up his recovery as well as open up aerial options. It's two frames, but the move itself hits at least 8 frames before that point. Furthermore, the move is RC-able during those 8 frames, so the issue isn't one of the move being unbalanced if it could be cancelled earlier. It can be cancelled earlier; it'll just cost twice the Tension because the player hit PKS one frame too early. How does that benefit the game in any way? Most of the options off of the cancel are Tensionless anyway (chase with air-dash into j.D, simply j.D right away if in a corner, land and Gamma Blade, etc). Similarly (I'm using Chipp just because I know him best, but my point holds for plenty of other characters), the FRC for his 22 teleport is solely intended to speed up the move. Extending the window forwards, not backwards, couldn't possibly break the move. Same goes again for Alpha Plus. For such a potentially powerful technique to exist, it needs to be somewhat difficult to do.Not only can depth or complexity be attributed to the amount of practice you need to put in, but the strong options FRCs give you should not be accessible to those who aren't to put in the time for it....HOS' Gunblaze FRC would be way too easy for what it gives you. Jam's 2D FRC would make it piss-easy to combo off of There's just no reason for this mentality that "it's harder so it should be better". The difficulty should come from the skill of deciding what to do with the options given by canceling, based on the current situation. How is "too easy for what it gives you" an argument? Isn't Slayer's Big Bang Upper "too easy for what it gives you"? Manual dexterity is already necessary to keep up with an opponent in spacing games and to link combos or blockstrings together, some of which require frame-perfect timing of their own. FRCs are one of the easier things to learn in GG, if you're hitting a wall there maybe the game is too hard for you. It's like practicing shooting a basketball and saying the hoop is too small to make it fun.I'm not hitting a wall. I can do all of my characters' FRCs (mine being Chipp and Axl). But it does make GG quite hard to introduce to people who I know are otherwise skilled gamers. Your analogy is inaccurate; it's more like playing a version of basketball in which a swish is worth five times the points of a normal shot. One can be quite skilled at stealing, layups, backboarded three-pointers, passing, and all of the other components of the game (I'm not knowledgeable enough about basketball to continue this), but that won't compensate for the sudden importance of swishes on the metagame.
Nakkiel Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 BBU is easily beatable by pretty much everyone as long as you attack with moves that hit low to the ground. If you keep swinging with moves you know aren't going to stop it then you deserve it IMO. FRCs really aren't that hard. Practice them and they become second-nature. They're not impossible, it's there to make you safe/give you an edge. Would you think SF should remove all their 2F links and make them easy? EDIT: You don't think Jam having an even easier to confirm starter for her wall-loop which is also ++frames on block is too good? What about Slayer 6HS? There's a number of FRCs things like this would happen to. It's completely silly to think upping it to 8 or more would work at all without kinks.
feri Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 There's just no reason for this mentality that "it's harder so it should be better". The difficulty should come from the skill of deciding what to do with the options given by canceling, based on the current situation. Reversals. Uppercuts (see SF4). Backdashes. Supers. Charge moves. Reversals.... Reversals!? There are reasons for why things are the way they are man.
tolore Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 I disagree with missed FRC's 'harder makes it deeper' I heavily agree with 'longer frames on FRC's changes their functionality' because they completely do.
Nakkiel Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 I didn't mean because it's hard (should've been clear), but because it adds a core game element that needs practice and is unique to each character. I think making it 4x easier would take away from it.
farranpoison Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 This is why scrubs drop GG and go to BB instead. :8/:
Hellmonkey Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 I disagree with missed FRC's 'harder makes it deeper' I heavily agree with 'longer frames on FRC's changes their functionality' because they completely do. Primarily execution difficulty makes the game more fun, although any sort of difficulty also adds depth because it can make a huge difference in how you respond to an opponent. An Eddie player will only be careful letting mawaru hit by itself if he knows the opponent can IB-> SRK or escape, and similarly a Slayer player can only be confident reacting to Baiken's ground tatami with DoT if he knows the Baiken won't react to blocked tatami with that FRC. How well an opponent punishes you for things can have huge impacts on how risky you play, since opponents who can't punish with big combos or who can't apply great pressure after knocking you down (missing FRCs could be a reason for this) allow for better risk/reward options.
Digital Watches Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Lawl. I'm with Baiken alex on this one. FRCs aren't fake difficulty, they're small cancel windows because they're not meant to be so versatile. You're looking for RCs (Play Sol or something).
Yggjrasil Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 I hurd FRCs are good for making DEM MIXUPS, so its very good to learn them for overly defensive turtlely players.
Yggjrasil Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 My friend that I play with everyday uses Millia and he mixes me up really good with her with that one move where she slides on the ground on her hair and S Tamdem Loop. he FRCs it usually baiting me in a throw combo that takes like 40% of my life or a wall bounce combo :/ same thing with me and May's DP FRC to OHK up close.
Zerite Posted February 26, 2010 Posted February 26, 2010 There are alot of things that developer's can do to allow for a wide range of skill to be present in a game. One of them is to tax human execution. You can either make optimal plays difficult or nearly impossible to accomplish given a certain amount of time, or you can make it easy to make mistakes. Fighting games typically do both. When you don't do these things you end up with games like soul calibur. Soul calibur isn't an awful game, but it isn't very well suited for competition. This is true for most games that aren't designed to show a wide range of skill.
Digital Watches Posted February 26, 2010 Posted February 26, 2010 Well, while I agree that most games that have competitive potential and are fast-paced necessarily have execution barriers, I think your conception of the causality is a little flawed. If I'm reading that right, it seems like you're proposing that for such a game to be competitive, there have to be execution barriers in order to differentiate skill levels, which I disagree with. However, I will note that most attempts to eliminate execution barriers would undoubtedly change the mechanics in some way, a good example being lengthening FRC windows (Changing the amount of options you have with FRCs). In other words, it's not that it HAS to be hard, and therefore it's 2-3 frame windows for the most part, it's that it HAS to be 2-3 frame windows to work the way they do, and therefore it's a little hard.
Recommended Posts