BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[A.X.I.S.]

how come the tager v tao match is slight disadvantage? i'm curious to know...in the old chart it was 6-4 in tao's favor.

[qwerty]

here's my current cs hakumen matchup chart. this is all subject to change as the game evolves. 7-3: rachel 6-4: noel, tager, arakune 5.5-4.5: jin, hazama, carl, taokaka 5-5: ragna, lambda, litchi, bang, tsubaki this is formed from playing the game since december against some of the best players in the country

[GentleMANLY]

wow arakune got hit hard but who cares when carl is still awesome and hakumen is now awesome

[GZ-Matthias]

how come the tager v tao match is slight disadvantage?

i'm curious to know...in the old chart it was 6-4 in tao's favor.

It's probably because Tager gained more anti-air capabilities in CS. On the flip side Tao's damage output went higher while maintaining all of her mobility that made that match 6-4 in her favor in CT.

In general this chart doesn't give Tager anything though. I'm curious what's up with that. All even or bad except for Rachel? Tager VS Tsubaki if anything is 55-45 Tager or maybe even 60-40. Sure she can run away and charge at the start of the match, but once things get closer and she gets tagged with magnetism it becomes like any other match where she only can charge up in short bursts. And at that point, she loses a lot of options due to her DP being unsafe versus Tager and a few other issues. Any Tsubaki players weighing in that have had the match up experience would be appreciated.

[kro_]

The chart you're talking about is called "[NORMALIZADA]" and subsequently, "

[NORMALIZADA EM ORDEM]".

I ignored these charts completely because it's a very lazy way to try and equalize the numbers to add up to 100%. It also makes the numbers unnaturally different from what the players are stating, which doesn't help me when I'm trying to interpret the players' reasoning behind their match-ups. So, I find it kind of defeats the purpose of using that extra decimal place because the entire format becomes different from what the players are stating. Not to mention charts don't need to have that much accuracy because frankly, it's almost moot to argue to that degree.

The reason I put Jin at 60-40 vs Rachel and Noel at 55-45 against Rachel is because Jin has been rated higher, suggesting he would have better tools to fight Rachel than Noel, which would lead me to conclude that Jin would have a better match-up vs Rachel than Noel.

For the record, I actually agree that Jin has a better matchup against Rachel than Noel, but you are still making an arbitrary decision to change the values of the original.

The matchup chart should be as objective as possible. Even if a normalized matchup chart is a lazy way to equalize the numbers, it does not add a subjective opinion to the original list. If the format of the normalized chart is bothersome, then I think posting the original (or at least a link on the first post) is better - even if the values don't add up 100%.

[DC]

i would put tager noel in tagers favor.

This. We still have Haida Loops but they don't break 6k damage any more.

Then again 5d is pretty reliable against sledge and some of his other stuff.

[worldjem7]

For the record, I actually agree that Jin has a better matchup against Rachel than Noel, but you are still making an arbitrary decision to change the values of the original.

The matchup chart should be as objective as possible. Even if a normalized matchup chart is a lazy way to equalize the numbers, it does not add a subjective opinion to the original list. If the format of the normalized chart is bothersome, then I think posting the original (or at least a link on the first post) is better - even if the values don't add up 100%.

Technically, all the match-ups, including the original list, are decided arbitrarily (subject to individual will or judgment without restriction) because the players that made the Arcadia chart are human too, so I don't see how calling my decisions "arbitrary" is a valid argument.

Maybe if I was just picking random match-ups to make better or worse with no thought towards them, then it might be considered arbitrary (capricious; unreasonable; unsupported), which I don't think I am being.

I apologize if I seem a bit arrogant about it, but I've had way too much experience with people calling me "arbitrary" on smashboards. They just love to throw that word around like crazy when things don't go their way concerning match-ups.

I understand why you're questioning me though. I wouldn't want someone to be BS'ing me about this either. I gave another example towards my thought process on post #9 if you haven't already seen it.

[Henaki]

your decision was arbitrary because you are not at the same level of skill as the people who made the chart and the reason you used had very little to do with the matchups and were based on the characters individually. there have always been shitty characters with great matchups in almost any game so your justification for that rounding was pretty close to baseless. for the record, tager matchups: tager carl is as bad as litchi and bang, 3.5-6.5. tager ragna and tager taokaka should be 4-6, both characters posses numerous advantages over tager in almost every aspect except raw statistics. tager noel should be 6-4 tagers advantage, even with 5d this matchup sucks now for noel, she does pretty mediocre damage and has to take big risks to do it.

[Narcowski]

Just as a general thought - there are more 65:35 matchups on this chart than the CT one. Since general consensus is that CS is better balanced than CT, it should probably have fewer matchups uneven to that degree or farther. Ignoring Arakune and Carl v. Tager in CT, CT had two fewer 65+/35- matches than this CS chart does. ed: It also might just be that the colors get darker at earlier ratios for this chart than the other one making it look different.

[Henaki]

if you actually play the game you'd realize it's more balanced anyway. even if the numbers look worse the game plays better. i use tager and it is much much much much much easier to beat litchi than it was to beat any of the s tier in CT by miles.

[worldjem7]

I don't see how it's close to baseless when it's within the realm of those players' views. I know that they know, so I deduce numbers from that. I don't know every match-up and I don't try to claim I know every match-up, so I try to keep the match-ups as close to what those players thought as possible. I don't think my method is entirely ineffective because the data is sound. Besides, I only did it so that everything would equalize, that's the entire point of why I did it. If Arcadia made a chart with matching ratios, then I'd post that without my own input. Once I post it, it's just a matter of letting me know if I'm wrong because even if I get some right, I'm definitely going to get some wrong.

[SuzuKnow]

Tager VS Tsubaki if anything is 55-45 Tager or maybe even 60-40. Sure she can run away and charge at the start of the match, but once things get closer and she gets tagged with magnetism it becomes like any other match where she only can charge up in short bursts. And at that point, she loses a lot of options due to her DP being unsafe versus Tager and a few other issues. Any Tsubaki players weighing in that have had the match up experience would be appreciated.

I'd have to agree. A good Tsubaki can put on a lot of pressure, but she's a bit predictable on her start-ups, and easily eats a command grab if she makes even the slightest mistake, and I know every Tager is spinning that stick waiting for such an opportunity. I don't think I'd go as high as 6-4 though. Charging is relatively easy to do unmagnetized, and even magnetized you can cancel out of 2D before you're in strike zone if you've gotten the ground back after the initial mag-hit, and once she has some gauge she can do some serious damage on Tager (well at least by her standards it's serious, lol) and has better approach options. I'd definately place it Below Even for Tsubaki, but since she can keep on a good string of pressure and mixup options, and other variables that can keep a Tager in a bad position, so I'd only place it at 55-45 in Tager's favor.

Tager has quite a bit in this matchup. Gadgeto Finga can be hell for Tsubaki's with little next to no Tager experience (Even troublesome for those with experience), and like you said once she is magnetized she is reserved to only fullscreen 2D or short bursts of charges, making her options very limited. And her DP is generally pretty bad to begin with, Tager just kind of rubs that fact in her face.

Could a Hazama or Rachel player explain to me how that matchup is even? No matter how I look at it I just can't see anything but Hazama having the advantage here. Does she get so pissed off at shitty vampire comments that she reverts to CT form or something?

[worldjem7]

Updated Tager-Tsubaki

[Edge Reaper]

Could a Hazama or Rachel player explain to me how that matchup is even? No matter how I look at it I just can't see anything but Hazama having the advantage here. Does she get so pissed off at shitty vampire comments that she reverts to CT form or something?

This

[zeth07]

*Take this for what you will*

The chart and the Arcadia list have Bang v. Hazama as 5.5-4.5, so I decided to cross-examine that with actual "results".

I am the person who organizes the Bang Video Thread, so I take all the links posted in the Video Posting thread and organize them by Vs. Character. So I decided to go through and watch every Bang vs. Hazama match and see who actually won the match-ups.

Tier Lists are supposed to represent a Out of 10 Matches based on 2 tournament level players, so these Japanese matches pretty much have that covered in terms of skill levels. Of course in theory it is going by one player vs. another player and not different players each time, but for arguments sake lets just say all these videos = the "average" tournament level player playing against each other each time.

First, for ease I went through each of the Youtube links first. There were 14 matches. Bang won 10 of them, Hazama won 4.

Bang = 71% (7)

Hazama = 29% (3)

7-3....

Second, I went through the Nico links. There were 12 matches. Bang won 10 of them, and Hazama won 2.

Bang = 83% (8)

Hazama = 17% (2)

8-2....

Third, we go by the Totals instead of just separated because of different things:

Bang won 20/26

Hazama won 6/26

Bang = 77% (8) Or (7.5)

Hazama = 23% (2) Or (2.5)

OR to be even more fair, let's just say it was 7-3. So I would question how a match-up that is SUPPOSED to be 5.5-4.5 and fairly even, turns into 7-3 and completely one-sided when it comes to actual match results.

I mean if we are talking .5 differences for certain match-ups and not clear cut numbers, how can the difference be so great from the opinions of the players on what the match-up is, compared to the actual results of the matches??

They aren't even saying it is 6-4 to be nice (compared to 7-3 or 6.5-3.5), they are saying it is only a .5 difference between being an Even match.....When just to be more nice to the match-up for Hazama the results were lowered from 77%-23% to just 7-3, instead of 7.5-2.5, or even rounding up/down to 8-2.

So my question for the discussion is why is there such a disparity between their opinions and the actual results?

*I would like to go through all of Bang's match-ups and do this little experiment as well just out of curiosity. Just to see how the results directly compare to the opinions of the match-ups.*

[shtkn]

well... you do realize that the japanese don't post every match video up and sometimes they post stuff BECAUSE they buck the trend, not reinforce it

[FunkyP]

matchups are assumed that both players are at equal skill level, just because to people play each other at a tournament it is no indication of the individual's skill level

[kro_]

Could a Hazama or Rachel player explain to me how that matchup is even? No matter how I look at it I just can't see anything but Hazama having the advantage here. Does she get so pissed off at shitty vampire comments that she reverts to CT form or something?

I posted something here.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8230

[feri]

So Bangs are winning in vids you say? That really doesnt prove anything other than Bang player X chose better options than Hazama player Y... in that specific match. What if I were to selectively just pull matches that Hazama wins vs Bang and say its a 0-10 matchup... Or pull Day 1 matchvids. Didnt some Arakune win vs many Nu's in SBO? Does that make the matchup any more fair? No, he's just a really good player. If you want your argument to have some sort of merit you need to point out some reasons why you think bang has an advantage larger than its actually stated. That way we can see if what your saying is legit and come to a conclusion..

[SuzuKnow]

I posted something here.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8230

Huh, that makes sense. I don't know if I'd still call it completely even, but I think I get why people may think so. I guess I gave Rachel too little credit in this one.

Thanks, that was the matchup that was giving me the hardest time understanding.

[kenja0]

So Bangs are winning in vids you say? That really doesnt prove anything other than Bang player X chose better options than Hazama player Y... in that specific match. What if I were to selectively just pull matches that Hazama wins vs Bang and say its a 0-10 matchup... Or pull Day 1 matchvids.

Didnt some Arakune win vs many Nu's in SBO? Does that make the matchup any more fair? No, he's just a really good player.

If you want your argument to have some sort of merit you need to point out some reasons why you think bang has an advantage larger than its actually stated. That way we can see if what your saying is legit and come to a conclusion..

If you meant solely Arakune vs Nu, then I apologize for misinterpretation. But I don't think the Arakune vs Lambda statistics are correct.

Lambda does have a fairly high anti-air now, but I feel that both characters have equal evasive opportunities. Say if both had an equal amount of openings for simple combos, Arakune would straight up win. He does less damage than Lambda without a curse, but when it hits full, he becomes extremely hard to defend against. Once caught (which there many ways to do so), his loop can do anywhere between 7k - 10k. Lambda's can do only 5k max. Add some bursts in there and Lambda is still at a disadvantage since a curse can still be active while the Arakune doesn't need to be in range of it. For the other way around, Arakune is not put in life threatening danger when he bursts Lambda.

Saying Lambda has more evasive options than Arakune is not the case, especially since Lambda is strictly a punish character now while Arakune's curse meter still fills on block. Over at the Nu/Lambda boards, 30% of the videos we get in are Arakune vs Lambda- each one a different Arakune with a different strategy or different loop; we see around 10 different Lambda players against these 15 different Arakune players. In the majority of the videos, Lambda loses, especially with our best players.

[zeth07]

So Bangs are winning in vids you say? That really doesnt prove anything other than Bang player X chose better options than Hazama player Y... in that specific match. What if I were to selectively just pull matches that Hazama wins vs Bang and say its a 0-10 matchup... Or pull Day 1 matchvids.

Didnt some Arakune win vs many Nu's in SBO? Does that make the matchup any more fair? No, he's just a really good player.

If you want your argument to have some sort of merit you need to point out some reasons why you think bang has an advantage larger than its actually stated. That way we can see if what your saying is legit and come to a conclusion..

First, I didn't "selectively pull" matches. I watched/checked EVERY Bang vs. Hazama match that has been posted on this forum. There was nothing selective about it. You can arguably say that these matches are between the Top 5 Bangs / Hazamas respectively, since it is usually the same handful of players in these matches we always see. So any issue of "same level" shouldn't really matter for the sake of the match-up itself. Because they are all really good and each have different styles.

Second, I actually was questioning the match-up based off the results alone and not anything directly related to the moves and playing styles. I did not outright say I think the match-up is much worse than it says, I questioned it.

More or less asking the same thing as you, what makes the match-up nearly Even for Hazama against Bang and vice versa? Yet no one has actually provided any points either about the playing styles and what have you..........

Like I said, I was questioning it not outright saying it should be different. My point is, if the match-up was truly 5.5-4.5, then Hazama should be able to win nearly just as many matches against Bang since that is exactly what the numbers are referring to. Yet in actuality the difference is pretty far off, by nearly 2 points.

Just as another reference, I started to go through the Jin matches and the results were relatively the same. Bang was winning at a nearly 7-3 ratio. And we have about 50 or so matches against Jin so it is a much greater sample. Now the difference is, Bang vs. Jin is actually listed at 6.5-3.5. This is a much closer reflection of the actual results, only a .5 difference. So why is it that the Bang vs. Jin match-up is accurately reflected by the results and only a .5 difference, yet the Hazama match-up is nearly 2 points off the listing compared to the results?

That is why I would actually like someone to explain the match-up and why it is 5.5-4.5, instead of just saying the actual match results are meaningless. There isn't really any major details in the Bang Match-ups Thread for me to have any reference, which is why I was bringing up this discussion.

[Nakkiel]

I think you're forgetting that the japanese match-up charts go by rounds, not matches. Either you don't understand what that changes or you simply forgot.

[feri]

I dunno how you interpretted my post but I was just trying to show Zeth's 'testing' of the tierlist by random tournament results will never add up correctly. And I'm no expert on the arakune vs lambda matchup but your argument is reliant on being able to curse her somewhat reliably/safely. There needs to be a link to the source for the tier list (especially since data was changed). Edit: If you want matchup info on Bang vs Hazama just demand it in the char specific matchup thread (it'll get drowned out in this thread and the information wont get logged). The board is active enough so hopefully some of the better players who have good hazamas in their scene will help.

[Kristoph]

I think you're forgetting that the japanese match-up charts go by rounds, not matches. Either you don't understand what that changes or you simply forgot.

does that make up a 2 point difference?