Afrikaan Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 I have seen tagers beat bangs on occasion. but only 2 times have I seen tager beat a litchi...she zones him and fishes for CH's all day that leads into 4k. even lambda looks less dumb for tager than litchi. and I swear carl vs tager looks 6-4...the shit that happens to carl is fucking golden. you know what I just realized? the bang players are complaining about litchi... You just noticed :yaaay:. Oh well, not like we get a gigantic reset button in 6 months anyway with 3 new ingredients thrown into the mix. All this whining is pretty moot until SBO happens (I'm personally calling an Arakune to be a part of the winning team. Maybe Dora and Hima?)
A.X.I.S. Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 You just noticed :yaaay:. Oh well, not like we get a gigantic reset button in 6 months anyway with 3 new ingredients thrown into the mix. All this whining is pretty moot until SBO happens (I'm personally calling an Arakune to be a part of the winning team. Maybe Dora and Hima?) 14 bangs in SBO. 11 litchi's. tell me who do you think will win SBO? kaqn? or a random litchi? or a random bang? truthly no mater who wins chances are a litchi and bang will be involved...good luck buppa you need it. anyways back on the ragna and tao business. also some tager vs carl. I really wanna hear the wonderful things those 2 parties have to say.
Catastrophy Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Why did the BB community opt to not play CT @ EVO if CS is just as horribly imbalanced? Instead of 3 God tiers you have 2 but now you have a character worse than CT Tager (Rachel). Melty ended up being a top tier mirror anyway and the game is ugly as sin.
Spirit Juice Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 It had Ara in C, and the most recent list from Japan I've seen had him in A. That's pretty big. And in CS, I consider C low tier, because when a character is C tier in this game they have 65-35's with every good character, usually. No, the last Arcadia tier list had Arakune in B tier. Not sure if another one was ever released after that. In terms of standards, C tier is still mid tier. A lot of characters that are mid tier in 3S have awful match ups with top 3, but are still considered mid.
Narcowski Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Why did the BB community opt to not play CT @ EVO if CS is just as horribly imbalanced? Instead of 3 God tiers you have 2 but now you have a character worse than CT Tager (Rachel). Melty ended up being a top tier mirror anyway and the game is ugly as sin. CS's top tier is much, much easier to manage than CT's, and CS Rachel is nowhere near as bad as CT Tager was. Melty's grand finals were disappointing, but there were plenty of good matches outside them. It could certainly stand to be prettier, but that doesn't make it a bad game, just like good graphics don't make a good one. It's both fun to play and very well balanced.
whitevoid Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 CS top tier are just strictly better versions of lower-mid tier in terms of rush down, poking, or damage. So essentially gameplay-wise they "trade" in the sense that they seek to do similar things, but top tier wins on most of these trades. Dealing with this is more just about playing better overall, then anything specific per se, making better reads and executing properly. CT top tier were more bad match-ups by the nature of the match-up, i.e. not having the proper tools to deal with the opponent. In CS you could just up your own personal game to beat top tier, but in CT you have to beat them at their own game.
Justice7541 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Why did the BB community opt to not play CT @ EVO if CS is just as horribly imbalanced? Instead of 3 God tiers you have 2 but now you have a character worse than CT Tager (Rachel). Melty ended up being a top tier mirror anyway and the game is ugly as sin. CS isn't that horribly imbalanced. In terms of matchups it's definitely much better than both CT and SSF4. The reason you see so many Litchis/Bangs/Ragnas in tournaments is because holy shit people want to win so they pick the best character. If Rachel/Nu/Arakune weren't in CT, everyone would just have played Jin instead, since he's basically 6/4 across the board. In fact, CS top tier is basically just three different CT Jins, insofar as the reason they are all top tier is because: 1) They deal more damage than average overall (5k meterless for Litchi, 4k meterless for Ragna, and 3-5k meterless for Bang depending on seals/FRKZ). Those three typically also have really good meter gain and can super pretty much whenever they want to (especially Litchi). 2) Their pokes are way too good, either in terms of priority, speed, utility, or damage. Bang gets 3k off 5A and Ragna gets 4k off 5B. Compare that to Hazama (who is A tier) who only gets like 2k off 5A and 3k off 5B. 3) They just have some sort of annoying BS. Litchi is self-explanatory, and Ragna's oki game ending in 22C/Berial reset is just too good. On the other hand, Bang has his vastly improved nail game and now he can turn the game into a ridiculous mixupfest with just two combos into FRKZ. You can compare that to the CT top tier, which was just ridiculous zoning shutdown all day, and CS top tier looks a lot more manageable. I'd rather deal with Bang's 5A (where I can at least reach him) rather than spend half the round trying to close in on Nu only to have her push me back out with random D swords.
soujiro seta Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 and I swear carl vs tager looks 6-4...the shit that happens to carl is fucking golden. you know what I just realized? the bang players are complaining about litchi... anyways back on the ragna and tao business. also some tager vs carl. I really wanna hear the wonderful things those 2 parties have to say. lol, can you explain what you mean axis
A.X.I.S. Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 lol, can you explain what you mean axis have you watched carl vs tager? when tager has carl cornered or in his face(not too hard IMO), carl looks like he's trapped and his only way out is barrier jump...if he doesn't he get grabbed...and the magnetism, carl looks almost helpless in it. other than that carl rapes tager if he can get him sandwiched. I just want it in more detail. and correct my thoughts on it, nothing more. afterall I'm a shitty player and a shitty poster.
Dacidbro Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Carl -has- to be strongly in the lead on that matchup. The one thing Tager has going for him is he can turtle a little bit at no penalty, assuming his blocking is on point.
ZONG_one Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Carl vs. Tager 8-2. :P Ok maybe 6-4, but Carl definitely has some sort of advantage. Damage is the only thing that's gonna save Tager in this match up. Get dem 2C's ready, kids! Also if you can't IB as a Tager player vs. Carl, you lose. End of story.
Miss Yuna Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 No, the last Arcadia tier list had Arakune in B tier. Not sure if another one was ever released after that. In terms of standards, C tier is still mid tier. A lot of characters that are mid tier in 3S have awful match ups with top 3, but are still considered mid. As a die-hard Elena main, I have never heard anything truer than this.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 come on zong? really is that all? nirvana moves faster and he has tager exclusive resets and thats all you have to say? I am underwhelmed.
ZONG_one Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 come on zong? really is that all? nirvana moves faster and he has tager exclusive resets and thats all you have to say? I am underwhelmed. Haha, we can get into specifics if you'd like. But seriously IB gtfo/360/720 is gonna be your best frienddddddd. Anything you want to know about watching for in particular? Those resets are beastly, but you're at the advantage if you're crouching in combo. (they're standing only resets.) Get in on Carl and get your work done. Don't let him zone you out, but don't rush in recklessly, because I'm fishing for CH all day. Punish airdashes for big damage, also. I'm going to lunch, but we can get into it later. :]
A.X.I.S. Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 I want specifics. because in my CT exp all I had to do was beat carls in footsies which is just me holding my ground and staying out of 5C range... but in the CS vids I see tager rushing in on carl and getting his shit wrecked or carl rushing in on tager and getting his shit wrecked.
Seyluun Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Tell me again how Lambda-Tao is 4.5-5.5? Tao all but nullify Lambda's drive and most of her specials, has far better normals, mobility, and damage output. I mean come on, it was 5.5-4.5 for Tao IN CT.
Leo7 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 i fight Zeero's Carl occasionally, so my thoughts are ... if Tager has momentum (hard to get, Carl has to get magnetized, and you need to REALLY catch him out of position), Carl actually has a bit of trouble getting out of pressure since he doesn't have the greatest of reversal options. IMO the major reason why this match-up is 6-4 and not worse is because of Carl's low health; it's entirely possible for Tager to random Carl out in a round once he gets momentum going. You can also actually play footsies with Carl, since 5C doesn't beat everything anymore. i do want to say Carl's j.B is gay.
Spirit Juice Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Tell me again how Lambda-Tao is 4.5-5.5? Tao all but nullify Lambda's drive and most of her specials, has far better normals, mobility, and damage output. I mean come on, it was 5.5-4.5 for Tao IN CT. Are you sure you're reading it right? You just said Lambda vs Tao was 4.5-5.5. And then you said in CT, the match up was 5.5-4.5 in Tao's favor. That means nothing has changed.
soujiro seta Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 have you watched carl vs tager? when tager has carl cornered or in his face(not too hard IMO), carl looks like he's trapped and his only way out is barrier jump...if he doesn't he get grabbed...and the magnetism, carl looks almost helpless in it. other than that carl rapes tager if he can get him sandwiched. I just want it in more detail. and correct my thoughts on it, nothing more. afterall I'm a shitty player and a shitty poster. haha you're too hard on yourself. Have I watched carl vs tager? lol, I love that matchup, especially when I use tager and get carl in a 720. Although when I use carl I always wonder how the tager player feels when I have him trapped by the wall. I feel like a hunter, and tager is my prey. It brings out the blood thirst in me. lol, anyway I'll try to give you insight from carl's eyes, with a little insight from my scrubby tager's point of view, although I'll most likely be wrong on the tager part. The only character carl is faster than is tager, so for once carl has an advantage in mobility, lol. This helps carl cause tager can't just rush in, like every body else, and start pressuring him. At the same time you have to play carl in a passive aggressive way, (more emphasis on defense and spacing than aggression) only applying pressure at the right time with nirvana backing you up. So tager doesn't feel like he's constantly getting pressured at all times like in his other matchups, and he has some breathing room to play with until he's cornered/sandwiched. Since tager can't run away like other characters and is so big, it's easier to push him towards the corner, but his range and spark bolt can prove difficult at times. Because carl has no good range outside of 5c, once he is magnetized and close to tager his main priority is to escape (barrier, vivaceB if tager tries B sledge, or IB vivace/backdash). Tager's magnetism on carl, with carl being right next to him, is very very effective. Trying to counter tager in the middle of his 5a/sledge spam is a no no. Since both characters are so slow in advancing, considering how you have to play them, you're going to see a lot of footsies, poking, and spacing. Tagers range, esp against carl, is good. Yes carl's 5c is good against tager, but you have to respect tagers range as well, especially once he has spark bolt. The last thing you want as carl is to get hit by a random SB, eat a combo, and be right next to tager magnetized. Carl has no answer to magnetism. If you notice in the carl vs tager vids, when carls get hit by a random spark bolt they usually burst if they have the life lead, lol, yes it's that serious. All tager needs to do is get in once, have carl magnetized and the game can end right there in a couple seconds. When tager has spark bolt, carls poking with 5c lessens dramatically, only doing 5c when nirvana is on just incase the tager has a twitchy finger. If tager is poking at nirvana and his bolt is fully charged, carl will most likely back peddal to the end of the screen, holding down back just incase he fires it. You do not want to be close to tager while magnetized. When carl has tager sandwiched, it's pretty much a guessing game for both players. Tager can 720/360 carl during some of his resets, and his backdash can help him escape some of them as well and give him the chance to punish with a 360/720. Thing is most carl mains know about this, so they'll incorporate some resets that are 720/360/backdash proof, so to speak, or simply bait it out. When I say resets that are 720/360/backdash proof, i mean if the tager tries anyone of those during the reset attempt, he'll most likely get counter hit by nirvana due to the nature of the reset, and the 720/360 will whiff, resetting the combo for carl for free. Tagers 2C can also help him in resets. You might trade hits will carl, but tager will most likely recover fast enough to combo. I really can say much on this one, cause it's a guessing game for both players. Carl has no answer to Gadget finger. Carl's range up close is terrible. 5a beats vivace, 5a beats out carls 5a/b, 6a beats carls backdash, etc. I can't see a situation where carl is at an advantage after gadget finger. The only time when tager should be really careful after GF is when nirvana is close. The carl will most likely be looking to counter, although it'd be difficult. From what I see and as a carl main myself, I'd say a carl's countering confidence increases when nirvana is close, lol. Most of the time we want to run away from pressure and hide behind her, but when she is close we will take the risk of countering even at the cost of half out health. (like if tager has carl magnetized in the corner with nirvana on the other side, you bet i'm going to try and escape, but if i'm cornered, magnetized, and she's right there then I'm definitely going to take a risk and go for a counter hit) This applies to the other characters as well. This match can be a long staring contest at times, dragging on till "Time Up". Whoever blinks first, (carl accidentally gets magnetized and in the corner, tager is sandwiched/cornered) can pretty much lose the match off of just one mistake, more so carl than tager. Momentum is so important in this match. Carl spends the entire match resetting/comboing tager only to mess up once and lose the match. Carl can get the momentum going faster than tager and he has an easier time approaching, but tager only needs to capitalize on one mistake or guess right during one reset attempt to put carl in serious trouble.
mAc Chaos Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Are you sure you're reading it right? You just said Lambda vs Tao was 4.5-5.5. And then you said in CT, the match up was 5.5-4.5 in Tao's favor. That means nothing has changed. I think he means, it was that way in CT when Nu had all those broken options. Now she's nerfed, how could it not have improved for Tao?
A.X.I.S. Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 hawkeye<3 I am satisfied for the most part...now for zong. also IIRC tao vs nu was 5-5.
Emerald Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 hawkeye<3 I am satisfied for the most part...now for zong. also IIRC tao vs nu was 5-5. That was my understanding as well. Tao is just as fast as ever and Lambda isn't as powerful as Nu, but got some nice changes to make her more well rounded. Nu had almost no reversal beyond bursts and a DD in CT, but in CS she has a DP and gained an air unblockable attack in act Parser C, I think. I think the added defensive options make it better for lambda than it might be without in CS.
ZONG_one Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Soujiro always write novels. And is very on point with a lot of stuff. Let me use his synopsis as an outline, and I can agree/disagree with some stuff accordingly, since I'm not known to be a cunning linguist. Here are some of the things that have gotten me/ I tend to watch out for the most when playing against Tager. The only character carl is faster than is tager, so for once carl has an advantage in mobility, lol. This helps carl cause tager can't just rush in, like every body else, and start pressuring him. At the same time you have to play carl in a passive aggressive way, (more emphasis on defense and spacing than aggression) only applying pressure at the right time with nirvana backing you up. So tager doesn't feel like he's constantly getting pressured at all times like in his other matchups, and he has some breathing room to play with until he's cornered/sandwiched. Since tager can't run away like other characters and is so big, it's easier to push him towards the corner, but his range and spark bolt can prove difficult at times. Because carl has no good range outside of 5c, once he is magnetized and close to tager his main priority is to escape (barrier, vivaceB if tager tries B sledge, or IB vivace/backdash). Tager's magnetism on carl, with carl being right next to him, is very very effective. Trying to counter tager in the middle of his 5a/sledge spam is a no no. This is probably one of the most accurate matchup summaries I've ever read. (There maybe be some arguments for Carl being more mobile than Hakumen, but this can be debated later.) I bolded what I did, because he's 100% correct on that one. That guessing game is very dangerous for Carl. Probably one of the most terrifying moments for a Carl player is being stuck in a blockstring while magnetized. Counter is definitely a no-no, and even just trying to get out is iffy. If your yomi is strong, this will be the Carl player's downfall. If you suspect they're being predictable, and they're magnetized, you have the tools to beat barrier (360), backdash (6A) and vivace (360, 2C), and beat them BAD. The last thing you want as carl is to get hit by a random SB, eat a combo, and be right next to tager magnetized. Carl has no answer to magnetism. If you notice in the carl vs tager vids, when carls get hit by a random spark bolt they usually burst if they have the life lead, lol, yes it's that serious. All tager needs to do is get in once, have carl magnetized and the game can end right there in a couple seconds. Can't stress it enough, take advantage of every second of magnetism. It srsbizness. 5C stuff vs. Spark bolt Yes, spark bolt will stop a lot of the 5C stuff, but I somewhat disagree about the usefulness of Carl's 5C anyway. It's a great poke for spacing, creating blockstun, etc, but it's also really bad in the sense that it alters Carl's hitbox in a way that makes it trade with A LOT of stuff. I'm not familiar with Tager at all, but Mike Z may be able to tell you what it's most likely to trade with, and how to capitalize. It happens a lot when I play him. Also, the fact that Carl's 5C isn't jump cancelable on block makes it unsafe, imo, especially when he's magnetized. If you learn what will trade with it, you should probably be trying to do so, since I'm sure Tager would gladly trade hits with Carl, given their life situations. Carl can rarely/never recover from anything his 5C trades with in time to have a favorable position, so use this to your advantage. Carl has no answer to Gadget finger. Carl's range up close is terrible. 5a beats vivace, 5a beats out carls 5a/b, 6a beats carls backdash, etc. I can't see a situation where carl is at an advantage after gadget finger. The only time when tager should be really careful after GF is when nirvana is close. The carl will most likely be looking to counter, although it'd be difficult. Gadget finger is the bane of carl's existence. The only safe way out is gold burst. EVERYTHING else is a guessing game. If you're agro off of Gadget finger, and nirvana is close, Carl may be able to get out punching super to hopefully trade and gtfo, but if you're not already attacking and he tries to guess this one, you could probably super flash buffer a 720/definitely super flash buffer spinny super and put an end to that. Gadget finger poses a real threat to Carl, I know a lot of tager players question the usefulness of this move, and I'm not sure how it relates to most other matchups, but vs. Carl it's going to be very important. The guessing game is much better for you than it is for him. Once again, pay attention to the Carl player. See if he is more of a passive/aggressive player, and guess on whether he'll vivace (bad choice imo,) Backdash (risky but can pay off. 6A makes him never do this again though,) or just block and try to react (probably the best option for him, honestly, and that's not a very favorable position.) This match can be a long staring contest at times, dragging on till "Time Up". Whoever blinks first, (carl accidentally gets magnetized and in the corner, tager is sandwiched/cornered) can pretty much lose the match off of just one mistake, more so carl than tager. Momentum is so important in this match. Carl spends the entire match resetting/comboing tager only to mess up once and lose the match. Carl can get the momentum going faster than tager and he has an easier time approaching, but tager only needs to capitalize on one mistake or guess right during one reset attempt to put carl in serious trouble. This is probably going to happen a lot if you're playing smart, which can end up in your favor if you maintain an early life lead. The Carl player isn't going to want to risk it at first. Jump ins are semi unsafe, unless they're passive (using barrier), which isn't even that smart. Probably will be right after 6D/fuoco, both let you IB and potentially punish. 6D can be IB'd and Carl's jump in can be backdashed into command grab/whatever, if his airdash is late, 2C will help, and if it's blocked, well atleast Carl and nirvana are still on one side of you. 2C is less reliable, since I think it may be possible for Carl to IB and FCH j.B, which is about 3.5k for free. Fuoco, let's you IB for tons of meter, and possibly punish with command grab, which is 50% of the match won already if you get it. I would say try and land one in every round (easier said than done, right?), because it's so terrible for Carl to be aggressive trying to play catch up. If he's forced to do this, he's going to take risks, and be unsafe, which is where your reaction/ability to punish will come in. You can backdash any of his jumpins, and if you don't think you have time to punish/can't get a back dash in, you can IB j.B/j.C and just throw for combo/they tech, but you've reset some spacing. In block strings, if you're IBing, the Carl player is going to be afraid to be on the ground. It's a huge risk, given your shit life. He's going to be using a lot of jump cancelable moves, as to not get hit by IB anything. If you've put the fear of being on the ground into him, start yomi-ing stuff, if you sense you're not a too great of a risk. Yomi collider is actually very strong, and 2C gets you out of a lot of stuff. You know that 5B>IAD>j.2C allecan crossup that everyone hates? 2C it. You'll trade, but you'll be able to combo. it's ridiculous. I hope I'm not disappointing you, as I'm terrible with formulating thoughts. "/ I just thought having two Carl players perspectives might liven things up. (kind of hard, since I agree with most of soujiro's points, so I'm providing my reasons for agreeing.)
Recommended Posts