[CS1-CSE] Tsubaki Self-Improvement and Critique Thread

[excelence]

@Tempest : Your vids almost makes me want to play Tsubaki again lolz. very good match XD

[Rhiya]

Yeah, but you DID randomly land a few 5bb's and reset. Those could've been good damage, which was why I made the comment.

EDIT: 5b has p1 80, 5bb has p1 100, iirc.

[Urichinan]

TK j.236C has to be done like Lambda's TK Cresent. You need to have a slight delay before you actually hit C. It looks more like 2369~C instead of 2369C.

[STenSatsu]

Almost positive that 3c is not 100 p1. Just try and start some combo with 3c>22d and then do 5c>22d (90p1). 5c does quite a bit more damage. Feel like 3c is 80 or so p1.

[Kiba]

@TD

Nice Tsubaki.

With those JCs you're doing on block you could probably go for some fuzzy guards as well.

Also out of curiousity, why do you use 5BB on block? I'm only asking because I'm worried that Tager can just 360/720 w/o even IB. This applies to 3C as well

You were also too close to Tager at a time when you hit him with an unblockable, not to mention you were magged on top of that. Again he could 360/720 you out of that.

[Rhiya]

Almost positive that 3c is not 100 p1. Just try and start some combo with 3c>22d and then do 5c>22d (90p1). 5c does quite a bit more damage. Feel like 3c is 80 or so p1.

Frame data says otherwise.

[HowlingDragoon]

Ah, did my first bout of online last night and it was pretty pathetic, even before I kept trying to play while exhausted. I want to screen-cap some of my match replays from the middle of the evening (after I got "adjusted" but before I started tiredly button-mashing) and upload a video of them to be picked apart. Would that be something to post here or the Beginner Mode forum?

Oh yea, things got a lot better for me when I started abusing the hell out of 5B rather than trying to use more varied normals. Jins, for example, pretty much only beat me on blatant error/inexperience, meaning I actually got in a decent amount of wins vs. Jin. 'Cause, like, you have to explicitly screw up for 5B not to punish your standard Jin blockstrings every damn time.

Even managed to pull out an actual launcher -> j236D-> j.214D combo ("Dive Cannon", haha) 3 or 4 times, though I don't think I actually won any of the rounds I did them in. But yes, chaining that from a ground combo in a real match -is- enough to make me feel good - stop picking on meee~.

[Airk]

I think you're more likely to get meaningful, Tsubaki-specific advice here. Beginner Mode is more likely to tell you "work on your execution, n00b" :P

[Rhiya]

Yeah, you're more likely to get specific advice here. Beginner Mode can pretty much only tell you "up your exec, learn your normals, etc."

We can tell you -how- to up your Tsubaki exec, -how- to use your normals, etc.

That's a big improvement right there.

[HowlingDragoon]

Okeedoke, TY.

This probably won't be till tonight, as I've otherwise got ~25 mins to reinstall my screen-cap software, record the stuff, compress it & upload. I'll edit this post and slide 'em in when I'm done. =D

[TD]

well, heres my list of moves tsubaki should be using outside of pressure (the ones i've been having success with)

5b - your everything. your approach, your anti twitch of sorts, your ONLY pressure string... hell, if all else fails (and l assure you it will), 5b and hope for the best :P

thats it ._.

in terms of less usefulness:

3c, 236c (with 50 heat) and j.214c (with 50 heat)/d to get in from midrange/fullscreen.

these are just general tips on how to approach. probably would have been better to watch the vids first but oh well.

[Airk]

Where's the love for 2A? :P It's safe, and it hits things that would go under 5B!

[TD]

well 2a is so universal that l didnt feel a need to include it. though it and 5a do get a special mention for being her only safe pressure (hardly) besides from 5b x n.

[HowlingDragoon]

Ah, I guess this got replied-over to a different page, so never mind the editing.

http://tinypic.com/r/3508bi8/7

1st Fight: First fight of the session. EPIC choke-up.

2nd Fight: First win of the session. Still throwing way way too many random moves out though.

http://tinypic.com/r/in7ndf/7

3rd Fight: I keep switching between these modes of "hey, not too bad", and "are you even looking at the screen or just the controller you're mashing on" - sometimes several times in the same round.

4th Fight: Ah, someone playing worse than me for once. Also featured: extremely greedy offensive burst.

http://tinypic.com/r/67o6ll/7

5th Fight: Guess I'm not the only one who bursts badly. BTW, not going for the jerk-Astral here; just trying to make sure I don't get out-poked from the win. =P

6th Fight: Typical Jin fight. Pretty much destroying me until they start throwing out scrubby blockstrings, at which point I eat 'em alive.

7th Fight: Sadly, these 3 were basically my peak and it just went WAY downhill from there as the night dragged on and I got tired. Oh well, fun times were had. =D

I'm aware of a lot of what my more severe problems are but that doesn't mean I don't still do them. Looking at it all at once, I seem to do an okay job of picking holes in opponent's offense, which is good because I can't maintain a defense for crap.

[Airk]

Well, it's time for the expected "Learn challenge 3, combo 1" comment here; While doing 5B>6C does work when you get a counterhit, I suspect you were just mashing it out and it's pretty unsafe. =/ You got a bunch of 5BBs in, and being able to turn those into 1800 damage or so will help a lot. I see you've already got into the habit of cancelling specials into others on hit. That's going to be a building block of your combos forever, so keep at it. At the same time though, try to limit the number of random 236Cs (and Bs) that you do. 236D is generally safe-ish, and 236A is actually pretty safe if you space it correctly at max or near max range.

Defensively, you are mostly doing an okay job of not just randomly hitting buttons, which is a good start. Get in the habit of blocking low rather than just holding back, though - not only will this keep you from backpedaling away from your opponent, but you'll also, overall, block more stuff. You will have to remember to stand back up before doing a 5B though. Also, try to get in the habit of using the A or B "uppercut" - those both have some invulnerability on them, which will generally work to your advantage. And while I hate to discourage you from charging (which I think you probably don't do enough of), be wary of using the standing charge (5D instead of 2D) against opponents that can rapidly attack at full screen distance (Jin, Hazama, Lambda, Tsubaki, Tao, probably some others I'm forgetting.); The best time to charge with 5D is after a knockdown.

Once you HAVE charge, you'll probably find it easiest, as you go along, to start experimenting with 236D - because on hit, this lets you go into whatever combo you like, so you can re-use whatever combo you're comfortable with. 22D and 214D, while both excellent combo starters as well, will require you to learn more advanced and difficult combo bits - though it may still be worth playing with 22D as an unblockable.

Mostly though, practice and play. Set aside 10-15 minutes and work on a combo. Play Arcade mode at a difficult you feel comfortable with and learn the ranges of your attacks, and what you can punish. Play more matches, relax, take it easy, have fun.

[HowlingDragoon]

Well, it's time for the expected "Learn challenge 3, combo 1" comment here; While doing 5B>6C does work when you get a counterhit, I suspect you were just mashing it out and it's pretty unsafe. =/ You got a bunch of 5BBs in, and being able to turn those into 1800 damage or so will help a lot.

Is the 2BB part even worth bothering with? It's an easy place to screw up the combo, and won't it nerf the damage on the specials? I do need to work on that combo, but for mid-fight rather than Training Mode. Not confident in my ability to land both Veritas and Decus in heat-of-the-moment reaction, so I usually just went with 236B -> 22B.

Defensively, you are mostly doing an okay job of not just randomly hitting buttons, which is a good start. Get in the habit of blocking low rather than just holding back, though - not only will this keep you from backpedaling away from your opponent, but you'll also, overall, block more stuff.

Yea high/low block response is a big problem atm. Standard Ragna generally destroys me, because he mixes it up easily without leaving much opening.

Also, try to get in the habit of using the A or B "uppercut" - those both have some invulnerability on them, which will generally work to your advantage.

You mean like, when blocking?

And while I hate to discourage you from charging (which I think you probably don't do enough of), be wary of using the standing charge (5D instead of 2D) against opponents that can rapidly attack at full screen distance (Jin, Hazama, Lambda, Tsubaki, Tao, probably some others I'm forgetting.); The best time to charge with 5D is after a knockdown.

Stupidly enough, I was hesitant to charge all night specifically because I knew I'd get tagged. Felt safer to go in gung-ho rather than guess at it mid-fight. I guess that's what 2D is for, derp.

Anyway, thanks.

[Airk]

Is the 2BB part even worth bothering with? It's an easy place to screw up the combo, and won't it nerf the damage on the specials?

It depends. If you have charge, you don't want to go into 2BB - you'll want to go straight to 5CC>22D and follow up from there. If you don't have any charge for 22D however, you're better off doing the 2BB bit, because it results in your combo doing slightly more damage since you can't follow up after Decus anyway. (Except in the corner, I believe).

I do need to work on that combo, but for mid-fight rather than Training Mode. Not confident in my ability to land both Veritas and Decus in heat-of-the-moment reaction, so I usually just went with 236B -> 22B.

Well, if you want, you can skip Veritas; It doesn't add that much total damage by that point.

Yea high/low block response is a big problem atm. Standard Ragna generally destroys me, because he mixes it up easily without leaving much opening.

Yeah, Ragna is going to be an ugly matchup for a while. Though a lot of new Ragnas dash in very aggressively, and you can stuff that with a 236X.

You mean like, when blocking?

In general, because the A/B uppercuts are more widely applicable. There's not really any advantage to using the C version at all except that flies up higher into the air.

Stupidly enough, I was hesitant to charge all night specifically because I knew I'd get tagged. Felt safer to go in gung-ho rather than guess at it mid-fight. I guess that's what 2D is for, derp.

Yeah. 2D for general charging, 5D after you've gotten a knockdown is a decent place to start. You'll learn better as time goes on.

[Airk]

Next question:

Sometimes after I hit with 236D, I'm too far away to go into a 5BB->Stuff combo. 6CC seems too slow? I see people dashing after 236D to cover the distance, but I can't see to get it to work, but I saw a reference in a CS2 combo thread to a 2366D (as in like, pre-buffering a dash) is that how it's done? Or am I just too slow or too fast? (Seems like lately, all my problems are doing things too quickly.)

[Rhiya]

I've never hit with 236D and been too far away to hit with at least 5bb. Are you using it at really close range?

If you can hit with 5b but don't think anything else will hit, though, you could just 5b>236a>214a>22c. Also, maybe dash 2a pickup?

And 2366D dashes before the special's startup. It's used in some mugen combos that otherwise won't work unless you're moderately close to the corner.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos

[BatousaiJ]

Non counter 236D hit follow up has always been a little shaky.

On certain characters that have "thin" crumple hit boxes like noel, it was easiest to follow up with 5BB > 22D for continued combo in CS 1 which will more or less always work. Dash in 5a/2a works as well but that takes a bit more timing than just spamming on that 5BB after 236D.

Remember that 5BB should hit if you go directly into 5BB after the 236D hit. If you delay it, you might not hit with both hits.

In CS 2 I've found 236D > 5BB > 623C > j.214A to work basically on everyone and you can do some good damage off of that.

If you get greedy and go for 5BB > 5CC often times 623C just won't connect and you'll lose the rest of your combo.

Just program yourself to recognize CH 236D as CH 236D > 6CC combo variation can do a great deal of damage and you can even get a moment of charge before you begin your onslaught.

[SolxBaiken]

Uwa~ Here's some crappy 2nd hand shaky cam quality (all I can do at the moment) matches of me fighting....

Mirror

Mirror

vs Ragna

I think it's painfully obvious I suck but I just wanted to get a finer point on why

[Rhiya]

For the Ragna mirror:

j.D was okay at best in CS, but in CS2, it's bad compared to 2d/5d. I wouldn't use it in neutral because the landing recovery makes you get blown up.

Respect Dead Spike if you're hit with it. It's +3, and whatever Ragna tosses out afterwards is going to stuff you unless you use something with good range and f1 invul. Jumping out/backdashing out is fine, just don't press buttons unless you want to eat CH.

Don't autopilot 5B into 5BB. It's asking for pain. I know from experience (>_<).

I didn't see much AAing. 2C, godlike anti-air, etc.

You only did it once, iirc, but it still bears repeating; don't chicken block without barrier in CS.

Use more consistent confirms and pressure, etc.

[Airk]

Definitely too much j.D charging. You need to be much more careful with that.

I'd also suggest less random j.214X. While it's harder to punish now, it can still be punished, and more importantly, it doesn't really GET you anything other than a little bit of damage and a positional reset. You shouldn't be trying to use it to approach. It's still semi-viable as a "jump back and punish" for some moves, and it's always nice as a way to get out of the corner, but it's not really an offensive tool.

I'd also suggest dropping the random 3Cs. Without a rapid cancel, 3C is high risk, low reward.

And yeah, DT is right - there needs to be some 2C action to make Ragna respect your airspace.

Otherwise, you probably need to work on your spacing and your execution, but those are things you should pretty much always be working on, and aren't really the sorts of specifics you're looking for.

[diospyros]

This is day one advice so take it as you like. Mashing 5D to charge is better than air charge; gain more bars more faster than aerial charge. I mean mash it like sekkajin instead of waiting on it.Also for the 6bbs, they work in two ways from starting 6a>5cc or a counter 5b>5cc.Also, you don't have to delay the 22b anymore when you confirm with 236c>214b. You whiff every time 22b took too long. Also, 3ccs are really dangerous. Take note that if you corner the opponent try this: (from a combo)22c>6c>236b>214b>22b. In this case, you need to delay 22b.

Edited May 17, 2011 by diospyros

[TwilightInZero]

So can you not upload replays to the leaderboard anymore? At least on XBox? I could use some help, but I don't have good means to record my matches. No capture card, and my low-end android phone likely won't hack it for camera recording.