[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Chaoschao222]

I see that.

[Wander]

It was actually very easy to find

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5unVDTa7TM

[Schneider-X]

Interesting combo at 14:22, probably worth looking into more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2zqPwbgCMg&list=PLC2923B729E129081&index=5&feature=plpp_video

[Destroyah]

Interesting combo at 14:22, probably worth looking into more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2zqPwbgCMg&list=PLC2923B729E129081&index=5&feature=plpp_video

Hmm looks deliciously EVIL

[dioxideUniversa]

I wanted to bring this discussion from Stickbug's thread here since it seemed to get mostly drowned out:

- We need to reinvent the game's reputation. BBCSE is a solid competitive fighter, but there are too many negative stigmas surrounding the game that are hurting its image. Someone mentioned that the only real BB vids on Youtube (aside from the excellent Beginner Mode series, which is a great start) are JP match vids and a few combo vids, and it's true. Combine that with the minimal amount of advertising afforded for the game, and you've got a product that most players don't understand, are misinformed about, or have never even heard of. We need more of... Well, everything. We need in depth character tutorials (maybe even specific matchup tutorials as they're so important in BB). We need videos that explain the metagame and how it's just as complex as any other popular fighter. We need personal pieces, top player interviews or "Bang the Machine" type stuff to let people see into our community and what ways we differ from the SF FGC, but also how we're similar. We need videos to showcase the hype, the Daigo Parry type moments. BB has caught a lot of flak for things in the past that aren't true anymore or were never true in the first place. The game is balanced, the roster is now sizable, there's technical depth for hardcore players but accessibility for beginners. It's a great game, but we need to dispel the myths that keep people from giving it a chance.

As I stated in my own post, I feel like this is a good place to start if we're going to take action on bringing new life to the community, as we can begin work on it immediately. Though we can't directly change how the community as a whole handles the situation, we can start with Hakumen and hope to make some impact from there. However, this is something that the Hakumen forum has to agree on if it's going to work.

I personally would like to begin and contribute to an effort to start creating quality video content (or even just content in general) for Hakumen; from detailed combo guides, general tutorials for all levels of play from beginning to advanced, character specific matchup information, etc. as skeletal posted in that thread. It's a great idea and we should do it. There's simply a lot of unspoken things in posted information about the character and the game in general that people have to essentially figure out on their own or get from other sources. I feel like we could do a lot more to make our forum here the premiere source of this information. Think of how many C/D mashers are out there! (hint: a lot)

This is all my view on the subject, of course, and it's pretty disjointed as I am feeling rather sick at the moment, but I wanted to throw it out there instead of delay. Hopefully someone is feeling more coherent right now than I am. I'd encourage everyone else to share their own opinions and ideas on the matter. I don't feel especially qualified to be the one creating much of this technical information, but I do have HD recording equipment and limited experience with Vegas that I am willing to expand on if someone is needed to actually make any videos. I'm also planning on getting more aggressive with rounding up jp match videos to post up in the video thread as soon as I'm feeling better.

[IndigoNovember]

As I stated in my own post, I feel like this is a good place to start if we're going to take action on bringing new life to the community, as we can begin work on it immediately. Though we can't directly change how the community as a whole handles the situation, we can start with Hakumen and hope to make some impact from there. However, this is something that the Hakumen forum has to agree on if it's going to work.

I personally would like to begin and contribute to an effort to start creating quality video content (or even just content in general) for Hakumen; from detailed combo guides, general tutorials for all levels of play from beginning to advanced, character specific matchup information, etc. as skeletal posted in that thread. It's a great idea and we should do it. There's simply a lot of unspoken things in posted information about the character and the game in general that people have to essentially figure out on their own or get from other sources. I feel like we could do a lot more to make our forum here the premiere source of this information. Think of how many C/D mashers are out there! (hint: a lot)

This is all my view on the subject, of course, and it's pretty disjointed as I am feeling rather sick at the moment, but I wanted to throw it out there instead of delay. Hopefully someone is feeling more coherent right now than I am. I'd encourage everyone else to share their own opinions and ideas on the matter. I don't feel especially qualified to be the one creating much of this technical information, but I do have HD recording equipment and limited experience with Vegas that I am willing to expand on if someone is needed to actually make any videos. I'm also planning on getting more aggressive with rounding up jp match videos to post up in the video thread as soon as I'm feeling better.

Will this be something like a Hakumen version of Xie's Beginner Mode? I'd like to help, but I have no HD equipment.

[dioxideUniversa]

They're very similar ideas, though the videos would be more concise (I remember BM having quite a bit of talk the few times I watched it, but I haven't checked it after the first few ones; felt much more radio showy than strictly video tutorials) and it wouldn't necessarily be entry-level exclusive information, of course.

More in specific of what I was thinking was that combo videos would discuss links/timings/spacings where it is important and the effects different timing or spacing has on combos where it matters. (e.g., the 2c j.B link should be delayed as long as possible in the new bnbs or else x happens or y isn't possible.) The objective would be to address common issues so there is expressed information for people who are starting off that can't figure out how to do x combos since a lot these people end up having to ask anyway. The old Enma combos are a pretty iconic example of this, as questions about it have been posted not infrequently in the past. There's a number of different ways to do this, and one way I liked that used to be done in the Tager forum (I don't remember if they still do it) was they had a list of combos and links to videos that someone had recorded for each individual combo. There wasn't much to it other than them doing it, but there could be more added to communicate to those having common issues with it.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about, and I'd be very interested in particular in developing content like this for stuff like footsies, pressure, and matchups as well. As I said, I can do recording and my execution is passable, so if no one else can I'd be more than willing to.

Edited January 17, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[Mr. Kimura]

You guys should do it like the tutorial Dandy J had for KOF XII, it was for 98 and older ones transitioning... but that's not the point. He had great presentation in it. I think its worth watching if you guys wanna do a vid.

[Darkside937]

Ever since I made that post I've been contemplating getting into vid making myself, as I figure encouraging through example would be the best way to go. Problem is, I have no equipment. How much would a cheap (i.e., non-HD, bargain stuff that can run on my dinosaur comp) capture setup cost? I really have no clue about the actual hardware but have tinkered with video editing before.

[mAc Chaos]

Like $50 if you don't care that much about quality. I've heard some people even use $10 setups but I don't even know how that would work. Or you could just use your iPhone if you have one. :3

[dioxideUniversa]

The big deal is getting splitters and cables, since cheap capture devices in particular alone won't do the trick for training mode. They tend to be far too laggy. I used to have some cheap capture cables that were good for recording replays, but not for actually doing anything on. They were clear enough for fighting games.

But basically all you need is some sort of splitter that will output to your monitor/TV setup and also to whatever your capture device is so you can do them both laglessly, and then whatever cables are required to do that setup. The important thing is to see what sort of input your capture device uses. I'm not sure of any cheap methods that take input via HDMI or anything, but I admittedly didn't research it a whole lot...

Is "dinosaur computer" really old or really awesome? I honestly am not sure what the automatic assumption is there.

[Spark]

http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-1212-Definition-Personal-Recorder/dp/B0018LX0DY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327018822&sr=8-1

This is what we use if you have the money. As long as you use component it also acts as a splitter, so you just connect your PS3 to it and then connect it to your TV/monitor.

[Darkside937]

"dinosaur computer" really old or really awesome? I honestly am not sure what the automatic assumption is there.

It used to be the latter... 8 years ago. Now it's the former. Thanks for the info.

Edit: Thank you also Spark. Sadly, that's a little too rich for my blood. I'll do some homework on it this week and see if I can come up with something.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Darkside937

[Schneider-X]

Jaxel from 8wayrun wrote a really good article on what kind of equipment and things you should consider for streaming and recording game footage.

http://8wayrun.com/threads/critical-edge-building-your-own-stream-part-1.9350/#post-357962

Give it a read, this is just the 1st of 3 parts.

[Moy_X7]

I will now join the ranks of the Hakumen army. 1 button reversals are godlike, specially when you know the holes in your opponents pressure.

[mAc Chaos]

nope go away

[WolfCrimson]

Here's what Trainer Moy did:

-Open Bag

-Use Moonstone on Jin

-What? Jin is evolving!

-???

-Congratulations! Your Jin evolved into Hakumen!

-Hakumen is trying to learn 1 BUTTON REVERSAL. However, Hakumen can only learn up to four moves. Should Hakumen forget a move?

[Moy_X7]

nope go away

D:

Hakumen forgot Jin and Platinum hit-confirms. Hakumen learned 1 BUTTON REVERSAL.

Actually, I'll put my Hakumen on hold for now until I get better with the other two. Those j.2A loops are hella fun though.

[Sophisticat]

Good to have ya Moy. Come for the counters, stay for Hotaru.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I'm surprised people actually post in here. So let me post a question for discussion;

From what I've personally seen and experienced, why do hakumen players struggle against the red devil (iron tager), in each iteration of the game? Is it because counters don't work against command grabs, or is it because you can't react to a command grab coupled with being pulled into it?

I could post this in the matchup thread, but I feel as a subforum it should be openly discussed to get different perspectives.

[mAc Chaos]

Do we struggle? I mean, Tager's matchup thread is always the busiest one for every character in every game. So it's not out of the ordinary. Since it's got so many rock paper scissors situations there's a lot of ground to cover.

Characters with command grabs traditionally give Hakumen a hard time though, and there's only so much you could do to keep Tager out. Eventually he would get in and make up all the little nips of damage you sliced him with on the way in.

Hell, Mu of all characters had 21 pages dedicated to him.

Edited January 23, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[BladeOfJustice7]

So would you say hakumen players need to rely less of "blocking right" and more on guessing right? How could you say it's really in Hakumen's favor when there "is so much groundwork to cover", a statement like that would lead me to believe it's more of an even matchup rather than a matchup in hakumen's favor.

If tager gets in close, shouldn't hakumen players work on guessing and learning how to handle command grabs more so at this stage in the game? I mean if command grabbers eventually get in shouldn't why try to figure out better ways of escaping their grab setups, and if possible ways of punishing missed command grab setups? Like being in the corner and jumping after an oki setup by valk into wolf command grab, I don't know how it is in csex, but if you're in the air and in the corner against valk's wolf form, most of your options are in his favor. Similarly, once tager has you magnetized knowing how to block an overhead just won't cut it against him.

[Spark]

It's because zoning for Hakumen doesn't get him a lot of damage. j.C doesn't usually lead into any combos, 4C goes into enma usually because you'll be poking at max range, and 6D/2D (to beat Tager 5D/2D) both get similar amounts of damage. After landing any of these it's risky to do mix up or pressure after wards because it's very easy to get A bustered/2Ced/623Ced during Hakumen's pressure strings. So generally you'll spend the whole match just zoning, which takes a while and can be over for you very quickly if you mess up and get knocked down/mixed up.

Which is why in a lot of match videos Hakumens will instant burst the second they get hit by Tager, because getting the life lead back from Tager can be so risky.

[Arcknight]

After playing one particular Tager a whole bunch(3 wins, hundreds of losses), I learned that there is no fun way to fight Tager(with any character). It seems almost anything outside of 4/6C can be punished with a command grab. Also this leading into a Gadget Finger set-up is why people want to burst ASAP. At least for me, I have a very hard dealing with Gadget Finger while using Hakumen. This absolutely needs to be avoided.

Any more I just play like absolutely nothing is safe. I wish they didn't make Tager the way they did but that is not something we can change.

For reference I get wrecked using Noel/Hakumen/Mu. All of them. Although my Mu has a marginally higher chance of winning.

Edit: I also don't get much time to play so my views may not necessarily be shared.

[BladeOfJustice7]

It's because zoning for Hakumen doesn't get him a lot of damage. j.C doesn't usually lead into any combos, 4C goes into enma usually because you'll be poking at max range, and 6D/2D (to beat Tager 5D/2D) both get similar amounts of damage.

So then do we simply just lack tools to effectively handle tager? I noticed the damage thing as well, hakumen typically just needs to land one good hit (in the corner in cs2) anywhere one the screen to make you suffer for getting carried away. If you have 6-8 stars start looking for a reason to make them hate hakumen, but against tager no amount of stars warrants a change in playing. I feel that this really hampers hakumen a lot, in a sense this matchup tager becomes hakumen (look for a mistake and capitalizing on it with big damage) and hakumen basically is an ineffective lambda (trying to keep him out and hurting him for it). Which zoning is something hakumen doesn't excel in unless the opponent is forced to commit to attacking him due to him having a life lead.

After landing any of these it's risky to do mix up or pressure after wards because it's very easy to get A bustered/2Ced/623Ced during Hakumen's pressure strings. So generally you'll spend the whole match just zoning, which takes a while and can be over for you very quickly if you mess up and get knocked down/mixed up.

So should we learn to apply different forms of pressure specifically for tager? His back dash beats out a lot of our pressure strings and allows him to 360 hakumen. One special that can catch him is any form of tsubaki.

Should hakumens relearn to play against altogether and throw out our old way of playing against him, for a more optimal way (if there is one)?

Chin's matches with akira were very good, especially considering akira is a top tager player. His playing had forced akira to commit to his pressure which led him to make more mistakes which Chin capitalized on. But if you note the way he played against akira and some other hakumen players is that they don't end in corner knockdown or any close range knock down what so ever. Combos end with jc, forcing tager to close the gap once again and potentially eat damage.

Which is why in a lot of match videos Hakumens will instant burst the second they get hit by Tager, because getting the life lead back from Tager can be so risky.

I've seen this a lot lately actually, I always thought it was a bad to burst early in a round (I rarely do that because most of my wins on/offline are from comebacks). Should this be a something us hakumen players should start implementing in our game against tager?

I feel that once he hits you, hakumen typically loses the rest of the round/match.

After playing one particular Tager a whole bunch(3 wins, hundreds of losses), I learned that there is no fun way to fight Tager(with any character). It seems almost anything outside of 4/6C can be punished with a command grab. Also this leading into a Gadget Finger set-up is why people want to burst ASAP. At least for me, I have a very hard dealing with Gadget Finger while using Hakumen. This absolutely needs to be avoided.

Gadget finger is the hakumen killer since you can't really "block right" but more so guess right based of your opponents tendencies. See because of this, it's not enough to know the matchup per-say but you really need to know player tendencies than in any other matchup. And yes, I feel that this matchup is that there's no other way of playing against tager, at the same time I feel that this will always be a tough matchup for hakumen if he is always forced to play the same way against tager. Maybe making more use of 6c while keeping him out, since you can take away his primers for almost free without putting yourself at risk, so long as 6c is done at max range.