[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Tecta1Eastside]

I like hakumen more on CT and CS2 than I do on cs1 and EX. Im glad they nerfed him and remade his combos.

CP hakumen is fine. He still has retarded range and is still is safe upclose. Remember that alot of the cast has also got damage nerfs also. As far as tager goes, yeah his combos easy but at high level play, everyone can run from and he pretty much relies on yomi, so if your not good at predicting your opponents moves you will still get blown up. At the rate arcsys is going, my best 3 characters, makoto, hakumen and mu-12 will be nerfed. I'll just deal with it. I've played cs1 tsubaki and characters on other fighting games who are worse, so I dont care:)

[itsme]

Except Mori has stated he's doing his best to remove loops from the game. Even though I can't imagine an ArcSys game without any loops whatsoever lol.

Ah, just out of habit from the past iteration that's the kind of combo that came to my mind. I still hope Haku can bust out damage when he's given the chance to in this game too.

[Sophisticat]

[...] That's why I grinded out playing on stick and learning to develop my skills with cs2 Hakumen, now look at me with CSEX hakumen. Nolan can vouch for me on this.

Yep. I dunno how, but you dethroned me fair and square. Your tech and combos are now superior to mine.

Carry the torch, my man! I'll be playing catch-up in the meantime.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Ah, just out of habit from the past iteration that's the kind of combo that came to my mind. I still hope Haku can bust out damage when he's given the chance to in this game too.

Yea burst damage is an important feature about him, along with his "absolute" defense.

I like his current build because he still capitalizes on the mistakes of opponents, A LOT, and if you're able to avoid making mistakes while on neutral or on offense. he can still be like, "lol I'm gonna force you to make a mistake :]"

I hope he still retains some of those features, jb should rightfully be nerfed, along with an air unblockable 5a. There's no reason for his 5a to be air unblockable when he has an AA, in my view. I'm looking forward to his new combo system though.

@Nolan, I have/had a sensei in secret :3

[mAc Chaos]

that and flat out blowing someone up after you figured out their tendencies and are outright afraid of you

this is why i live

[toanenadiz]

That is an evil way of living

[Sophisticat]

It's the only way to live.

@Eb: Introduce me! :O

[Warhound]

I hope I can get back into the swing of things. I was pretty good in CT, but ever since CS I've been doing worse and worse. I don't know if it's the crap connections I keep getting (or have) but I've just never been able to get to where I was as good as I was in CT. Maybe I just need to fight the people from the boards instead of randoms.

[Sophisticat]

^ I think by and large people are just plain better players ever since FGs exploded in popularity back in 2008. It's now not uncommon to get a whole new game and most already at least have fundamentals down.

It's a tough world out there, yo.

[Warhound]

Mm, fundamentals I can do, but, I dunno. It also doesn't help that I can't play anyone with any skill nearby.

[BladeOfJustice7]

You guys should really check out this new Hakumen player named JUN, he's been appearing in a lot of matches lately. At first I didn't bother to watch any of his matches, but after checking him out now, he's legit. I'd add him in the CSEX thread, but that's kinda pointless with CP coming out in a few days.

@Nolan, I can't tell you who taught me how to play :3

[mAc Chaos]

Now now, I'm not worried about anonymity, so it's OK, Blade.

[Isuna]

no offense, but

No offense taken. I state my opinions like facts, hoping that people prove me wrong. : )

That is just how I work.

but you've been one of the quickest to pronounce hakumen DOA months before experienced players have even had a chance to get hands-on with the new version, which is still not even finished.

What I have said is that I am a conservative dick, that Hakumen is dead to me and that I think he is going to be bottom tier. (well, at least low tier)

However, with Hakumens low combo rate and no run dash, I have a hard time seeing how anyone could find something magical.

When EX came out, Tsubaki was really bad. While I would say she is still a weaker character, Kuresu and Conan shines with their 5A dash 5A pressure and throw mix-up.

But hey, what do I know. JC wall stick is the secret? Do we in fact have bonus proration on 6D? Is there a secret behind Zantetsu?

a lot of the changes aren't fantastic, but it does not realistically seem like he is going to be cs1 rachel-levels of broken with the changes. it also still depends on how the rest of the cast turns out--it's still too early to say for certain.

I have no idea how bad Rachel was in CS1, so I cannot really comment on that, but in the loketest before this one they said that Ragna does more than 4k from a 5B starter in the corner meterless. If this true, I cannot see anyway Hakumen can be stronger than Ragna. Or does someone still disagree with me that ID is better than Zanshin?

it's not some kind of masochistic brand-loyalty to still want to play your main when the changes don't change him too fundamentally, as memorable as j.2a > AD j.2a is.

Doesn't the changes change him quite much? Abyssmal corner carry compared to all other versions and I guess (?) his defence also is much weaker than before?

I can understand that you guys keep playing Hakumen, you've been through a lot together and well, he still is Hakumen, even if I don't want to admit that. : p

But I would like you to see it from my perspective as well.

Like BladeofJustice said in the hype thread: I choose character 60% by looks and 40% by game mechanics. For me half of this is also uniqueness. If Hakumen's J2A dash J2A (which looked frickin' awesome by the way) is not there anymore, he is going to jump cancel his aerial combos like most others in the cast. Also, every characters Drive is half of their uniqueness. And they nerfed Hakumens.

My sect of the Hakumen-religion was J2A dash J2A and Zanshin, and I feel like they have squashed me under their feet. This is why Hakumen is dead to me, not because he is weak. Because his not what Hakumen meant to me, what made him fun to play for me.

Then you have to consider that I am very weak player. Of course I like getting rewarded, so when I get rewarded in thirty minutes for learning a Tager combo it felt great.

It didn't feel so great when I spent 4 hours to get the dustloop once, and then only used it succesfully in matches twice.

I'm not a hardcore gamer and BB was my first 2D fighter. And now that I am in Japan, I need to either settle for playing by myself and buy a box or need to learn to play arcade stick (which just isn't in my taste). With these walls to get over, I'm not particulary happy about facing another wall of playing a weak character as well.

In this regard, Izayoi is most good-looking girl to date in the game and while Hakumen is best good-looking guy in the game, you can't fight boobies.

If Izayoi is fun to play (=has some easy way to get rewarded), then she might just be the one for me.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, the new combos they have for Hakumen seem super super simple and easy. You don't even need to know the old Enma combo anymore really. So right there you can probably have an easy time.

But it's not like Haku is going to be like this forever. If you're going to come back to him eventually, you might as well just skip the vacation and stick with him until they release another one which they do every year at this point. It'll be over before you know it. And you'll keep playing Hakumen so you'll still be improving with him. When the new one comes you'll be able to take advantage of your experience instead of starting from scratch again.

[Nemesis]

Now now, I'm not worried about anonymity, so it's OK, Blade.

ROFL

[itsme]

You guys should really check out this new Hakumen player named JUN, he's been appearing in a lot of matches lately. At first I didn't bother to watch any of his matches, but after checking him out now, he's legit. I'd add him in the CSEX thread, but that's kinda pointless with CP coming out in a few days.

He used to upload his online matches on nico and I loved following it before he stopped.

Also, here's the link to all his uploaded online matches for EX if anyone is interested. What I liked about his videos is probably that you can see his Haku kind of growing through out the series and the fact that in most of the matches, the opponents shows off some of their own characters neat techs as well.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/29954696

Edited November 16, 2012 by itsme

[BladeOfJustice7]

ROFL

To be fair, a lot of my scumbag resets I use especially in the corner I got from mAc. Though he's not the one I was referring to.

Anyways, point is, I'm unfree now lol.

He used to upload his online matches on nico and I loved following it before he stopped.

Also, here's the link to all his uploaded online matches for EX if anyone is interested. What I liked about his videos is probably that you can see his Haku kind of growing through out the series and the fact that in most of the matches, the opponents shows off some of their own characters neat techs as well.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/mylist/29954696

Wow thanks I'll try to check it out. I probably won't watch it much when CP really heats up, but keep me updated on it if you can.

[kirbster]

Anyways, point is, I'm unfree now lol.

That remains to be seen tomorrow! Muahahahaha

[Sophisticat]

I'm free no matter what I do or how much time I've put into this game. ;_;

/Slitwrists

[dioxideUniversa]

snip

Let me preface this by saying that I do respect and deeply appreciate the work you've done with providing the forum with CP information, especially for providing the loktest videos on youtube. You deserve your award and the recognition it brings.

That said, I'd like to point out a few things about combos since it is the main topic (in no particular order and of varying importance:)

- For one, Hakumen's combos at the core have been basically unchanged since CT. He is one of only a few characters who have gotten such treatment as it is typically pretty standard fare for a character's combos to change inbetween versions. Hakumen's, however, were only built upon, save for Hotaru and Tsubaki combos which were changed significantly in CS2. Tager finally got a change to his combo system in CSE, and in CP, he is getting new changes that make his old combos obsolete. In fact, some of his gatlings associated with his hit confirming are being changed. There's nothing saying that once a version is over (IE, CP, with the Hakumen combos you do not like your impression of,) that they will not be changed ever again, as others said.

- The new CP combos resemble Hakumen's old juggles that he used in CT, CS1, and CS2. The problem is that CSE with j.B > j.2a + j.B's new untech made them very obsolete.

- Hakumen's corner carry in CSE is over the top compared to the rest of the cast. It is not difficult for him to drag an opponent from one corner to the other in a single combo if he has enough meter to blow on it. People may have varying opinions on this, but the amount of corner carry he had in CSE compared to other versions was too strong. This is compacted by the fact that due to his meter cooldown changes, his meter efficiency in the corner almost removed the drawback of requiring meter to do combos (on top of doing very high damage there.) Hakumen did not always have godlike corner carry and it won't kill any Hakumen players to throw back to that gameplay.

- Hakumen also has forever to hitconfirm a lot of his attacks, especially j.B. Changes in CP's frame data reflects this.

For the same reasons you find CP Hakumen unappealing, others (me for instance) can find CP Hakumen appealing because his new combos look more like CT juggle combos and we're actually getting something new and interesting to do in the corner. Will it be as good? Probably not--at least not midscreen, but I'd not be surprised if his corner damage went down too.

For most of us, there are far more to a character than just combos. Parries matter a lot, yes, and the 6D change I think receives unanimous agreement as dumb, but that's just how it goes some times. CS2 Hakumen was also dumb, but that's when I started processing JP videos and leveling up my game. I'm still mediocre, but I've come somewhere further than I was in CS1 by far when Hakumen was a strong character. The feel of the character's normals, how they play footsies, the way they move around, what pokes they have, how matchups work out; there are a lot of factors and not just what their combos are like. j.2a AD j.2a is just not that important.

Some misc points:

What I have said is that I am a conservative dick, that Hakumen is dead to me and that I think he is going to be bottom tier. (well, at least low tier)

Actually, you've just generally whined at a plethora of opportunities (or I really wouldn't be here.) Also, seeing as how his damage isn't through the floor like in CS2 and he is (supposedly) getting some nifty non-combo related buffs, I'd expect him to fall comfortably around mid which is by no means bad. He's been in worse places (D or C in CT.)

However, with Hakumens low combo rate and no run dash, I have a hard time seeing how anyone could find something magical.

Hakumen has always had low combo rate becuase his normals hit so hard. His damage is also not looking like it's going to turn out to be abysmal; "run dash" seems sort of boggling and nearly irrelevant, as there's nothing wrong with his hops. "Something magical" is not required for a character that is looking not too shabby.

I have no idea how bad Rachel was in CS1

very

actually here i dug up an ancient relic to give a more informative answer: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?8432-BB-CS-Match-Up-Chart&p=574309&viewfull=1#post574309

her only even matchups were tsubaki and rachel mirrors. she had no good matchups

but in the loketest before this one they said that Ragna does more than 4k from a 5B starter in the corner meterless. If this true, I cannot see anyway Hakumen can be stronger than Ragna.

It's not really anything new for Ragna to do huge damage with no meter at this point; he's also a character that relies on rapid cancels to not have bald pressure, which is relevant to this point. Damage alone does not define a character's overall strongness (CS2 Hakumen had extremely high damage in the corner.) Typically people look at the tier list to determine a character's strength, and that depends a lot on matchups and how other characters interact with Ragna / Hakumen. If Ragna has high damage but tons of shit matchups, then he's not going to be very high on the list.

Doesn't the changes change him quite much? Abyssmal corner carry compared to all other versions and I guess (?) his defence also is much weaker than before?

Corner carry and the whole midscreen vs. corner "meta" (if i won't be clubbed for using the word) changes with every version. In CS1, standard good damage was 3k midscreen and 4k corner. In CS2, it was something more lik 2.5k to 4k, increasing the value of corner carry vs. damage. It could be that they are designing Hakumen to where he does not prioritize putting them in the corner as much as in these previous versions where his damage goes through the roof.

It remains to be seen still (loktests) if his corner carry in this version will be the worst or not, or if the point will even matter that much.

The 6D change does nerf his defense, but all it really does is make it where it's safe to do meaty overheads on Hakumen, so it's not as though he's being mixed up like crazy now. Fuzzies could be problematic; you can still 2D oki setups on Hakumen as he has been able to in most versions.

Also, every characters Drive is half of their uniqueness. And they nerfed Hakumens.

It won't be as strong. That doesn't mean it's useless. It was a strong deterrent before when used intelligently. It will still be a deterrent in CP, just not quite as good. This does not somehow make Hakumen less unique. More things than just parries make Hakumen unique (special cancel into other specials.) The changes aren't somehow making Hakumen a homogenous character just because he does juggles or something (which he only really stopped doing in CSE.)

My sect of the Hakumen-religion was J2A dash J2A and Zanshin, and I feel like they have squashed me under their feet.

5D is still strong (and was changed to make it more versatile, though reluctant to call a charge a buff,) j.D got buffed, 2D is still strong. Unless characters can punish parries on block, then the changes don't warrant "squashed under their feet."

j.2a AD j.2a, while iconic, is old. After four versions, I'm not afraid to move past it.

Then you have to consider that I am very weak player. Of course I like getting rewarded, so when I get rewarded in thirty minutes for learning a Tager combo it felt great.

If you forego combos and just learn a strong footsie/neutral game with Hakumen, it can be rewarding to slam your opponent with 1000 damage normals, not something a lot of the other cast can do.

Regardless, the only way to not be a weak player is to have some patience and not just give up.

It didn't feel so great when I spent 4 hours to get the dustloop once, and then only used it succesfully in matches twice.

Without being cheeky about it, if you weren't so averse to learning stick, it wouldn't be as hard by a long shot. Pad is inferior.

And now that I am in Japan, I need to either settle for playing by myself and buy a box or need to learn to play arcade stick (which just isn't in my taste). With these walls to get over, I'm not particulary happy about facing another wall of playing a weak character as well.

My entire point in all this is that this has all been very chicken little and you are being overly pessimistic about the changes because you think you won't be able to enjoy him anymore due to combos or changes making it too weak for you to win. Is Ragna sounding appealing to you? It's also extremely common for people to freak out during loktests, and most times it has been silly (Litchi players during CT > CS1, Arakune players every single version, Makoto players for CS1 > CS2. that is to say every time they have been very strong)

You're entitled to your opinion, but frankly, the way you've been expressing it is a little irritating.

I'd warn not to get too starry eyed over Izayoi with the hope that she might play like Hakumen, as we know very little about her for certain and it's up in the air what she will play like. I've been interested in many characters in theory and disliked them in practice. No needless disappointment.

as a final note: boobs would probably seem less exciting to you if you actually had a pair

Edited November 18, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[BladeOfJustice7]

@dioxide, good post to keep us all motivated.

One question that's on everyone's mind after reading this is:

as a final note: boobs would probably seem less exciting to you if you actually had a pair

Are you saying you're a girl, or you're saying Isuna's a bitch?

If you are a girl, I've just been mindfucked to the nth degree. That is all on this topic.

Now this was taken from the Azrael thread.

236236D - Standing unblockable with upper weak point and crouching unblockable with lower weakpoint. So you know what happens with both weakpoints applied, right? Can still be air barrier guarded though.

Does this mean he is that much more threatening to our counters if we have weak spots. Even whiffing a counter with a weak spot could be detrimental to our White Void.

[itsme]

I was actually wondering if the weakpoints were only going to be for damage buff, adding unblockable attributes actually sounds cool. I'm now wondering how would it work if Az only had one weakpoint on us and tries it vs. Yukikaze.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Only the super is unblockable to the weak point, but the weakpoints give him a damage buff since landing a hit on a weak point gives better hit properties i.e wallbounce, ground bounce, crumple, etc.

But this matchup sounds really interesting and I look forward to seeing it pan out, shitty hakumen or not.

[dioxideUniversa]

Are you saying you're a girl, or you're saying Isuna's a bitch?

no, i am not saying Isuna's a bitch. as stated, some of his comments rub me the wrong way and i opted to offer insight rather than burn him for it.

except for the last one anyway

[WolfCrimson]

AHA, so you ARE a girl.