bblader1 Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 (edited) Wait wait let me get this straight. You ask a Litchi main what Tager's worst match ups are? Ok then let me help you out with this because this has been answered many times before: No, I asked for LK's take on it, not the general opinion. Edited July 21, 2011 by bblader1
zeth07 Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Re-linking my question so it doesn't get lost in the pages of discussion before I actually get LK's opinion on it: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?11944-LK-s-GAMEPLAY-RELATED-QUESTIONS-ONLY-cs2&p=1074684&viewfull=1#post1074684
Skye Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 No, I asked for LK's take on it, not the general opinion. Chances are LK's take on it will be the general opinion, because those said opinions are backed up by videos of Tager taking it in the butt by bees and snakes. Not to mention the respective (good) players playing the match up out.
bblader1 Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Well, I just thought I'd ask anyway, just in case. LK you're more than free to ignore me if you don't have anything to add.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 21, 2011 Posted July 21, 2011 Isn't Mu-12 also just as bad? Nope. All I need to make Mu think twice is hold a spark bolt. Tager can punish some of the things Mu would try to do with spark. Unfortunately she still has things that make Tager want to jump off a cliff but overall its not that bad.
Lord Knight Posted July 21, 2011 Author Posted July 21, 2011 I can't remember if I asked you this before or if someone else did, so I'm gonna ask anyway: How do you feel about the Ground Tech system in BB? And what would you change about it if you thought it could be better? Do you think giving BB a tech system like GG or SF would make it a better game almost by default due to a more real oki situation? Like untechable knockdowns and a quick tech being the only options and not even being able to roll one way or the other or some other changes maybe to the roll system if you think rolling is ok in itself. Some characters have moves that allow them to pretty much make Roll Teching impossible and almost force you into a blocking situation on oki. While others seem to have to guess what the opponent is going to do defensively instead of the offensive player actually being at a real "advantage" after a knockdown. This really annoys me because it just doesn't seem right. I know some moves actually have "forced" neutral tech, but they can still choose to not tech at all. And the timing for when a combo "resets" off of a knockdown and them not teching just seems too long, when I can literally DASH toward them>2A and still have it Blue Beat the same combo even though I just dashed in half a screen away. In my personal opinion I think this hurts the game somewhat, and if there was anything I would change in BB it would be the ground tech system. What's your thoughts on this? I think the Tech system is fine in BB. My main complaint with it (special cancellable rolls) was fixed a long time ago. Really, pretty much every character, with the right knockdown/combo ender, can create some sort of situation where the opponent can't use a disrespectful tech option. Obviously, you can't get it off all hits (we saw this last game in a certain S tier character), but it makes sense. To me, people who try to not tech/delay tech/delay roll are just handing you free meter and extra damage (if you know how to handle the situation). For example, way too many people I've played against tech late against Hazama midscreen, and just hand me a free 5C > 2C > Jakou >etc that I wouldn't have gotten if they emergency teched. I'm fine with it, but it hurts the midlevel a little bit, in my opinion. There's nothing wrong with the ground tech system in BB. The problem is twofold: #1: Players feel entitled to oki. This is a street fighter mentality that needs breaking out of. The automatic assumption that strong oki makes a game better is far from universally true. #2: The distribution of who has stronger oki in BB seems to have been determined by the "oops, that move can be used for oki" system. Now, to be clear, it's PERFECTLY FINE that some characters have better oki that others, in the same way that it's fine that some characters have invulnerable DPs, some characters get more damage from throws, some characters have better zoning, etc. The problem arises with the fact that Arksys doesn't seem to have thought about it. They give Makoto her sparkle ball and think "What a clever projectile we came up with!" without seeming to realize that it's a tremendous tool for locking people down in the corner on wakeup. Same thing with Litchi. But obviously you don't NEED to have "good" (quotes, because someone will come in and complain that all oki in BB is weak compared to Millia in GG, so heading that off at the pass. :P ) oki to be strong in this game - Hazama and Noel don't have particularly strong oki games, and it sure isn't holding them back. I encourage everyone to take a step back from the preconceptions and actually consider oki as a game system, what it adds, what it takes away, and why. Think like a game designer! I think people should be rewarded for hitting the other person. Wanting oki is justified. It's not our job to think like game designers, LK, how do you feel the current level of the top players in America (such as Dacidbro, CopperDabbit, Dsmoove, Omniscythe, 2GB Combo) compare to the japanese mid and top level players? As far as "strong players in America", there are plenty of them, by our standards. As far as "strong players in America", compared to average Japanese players. . . I wouldn't know! I don't live in Japan. But I can say that average is average anywhere. As far as "strong players in America" by my standards, there are very few players who are strong. Compared to Japan's top, only our very best stand a chance, and we would still lose. Oki lovers come across as bit retarded anyway. I know this is sacrilegious, but promoting a game mechanic that really alienates and frustrates new players is no way to ensure a game's following. There aren't many characters who specialize in oki. If anything, it's just Litchi and Rachel. New players probably wouldn't even see what they could do unless they go to tournies or have someone close who's good. . . they are too busy doing UNDER HEAVEN DESTRUCTION (nothing wrong with this). Can someone explain me how Litchi's okizeme beats this? (CS1 video, but still works on CS2). Like I said, I might have the wrong idea about what okizeme actually is, I don't know. Arakune curse oki is indeed very strong. . . however in CS1 it wasn't even necessary, considering all he needed to do was invisible mixup off blocked bugs to win. In CS2 he does less damage, a couple of less ways of doing 1 combo > curse, and you'll still mostly see invisible mixup off blocked bugs. Arakune doesn't often have time to go into setups like that, while Litchi can/will go into Daisharin as often as possible. So LK, what do you think Tager's worst matchups in CS2 are, and what do you think the developers can do to balance them out? I'm biased, I like Tager being bad because I don't like grapplers. His bad matchups are Haz, Carl, and Arakune. Haz and Arakune are probably the worst, Carl is bad but not as bad as before. Makoto can be annoying for him if they know what they are doing, but she doesn't really have safe okizeme against him like Litchi does, so it's all right. Mu seems bad but Axis seems to think otherwise. If Gadget Finger was better or if he had some better midscreen follow up, he'd be better. Tager is big and slow, and this is an anime game where everyone has a cool special power. He's going to have bad matchups no matter what. Who do you think is the sexiest blazblue player (both gameplaywise and as a person)? That girl Lambda that qualified for SBO, probably. LOL give Tager Sliding Head and HammerFall... My question: How much of Platinum's stuff should I be Barrier Blocking with Litchi? Platinum's 5A is+1, and her 2A's are limited to only 3 hits (2AAA). 6B (the overhead) is safest at max range. . . it's best to watch how they pressure and adapt accordingly. If they just try to frame trap you all day, a good combination of barrier/dp or barrier/jump or backdash will be fine. Just make sure you're prepared for 6B.
Airk Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 I think people should be rewarded for hitting the other person. Wanting oki is justified. People are rewarded for hitting the other person by the most basic gameplay mechanism - doing damage. Add to this that knocking down the opponent always allows for the 'winner' to choose the range of the next engagement, I would say there are plenty of rewards for hitting the other guy already. After all, it's the point of the game, you don't need to reward it.
TD Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 hey lk, l was pondering whether l should ask you but, it's killing me (literally... but in-game lol). hazama. what do. as rachel l am very afraid of this guy from anywhere. l mean, l thought lt was just zidane but l think l have some sort of hazama-itis... l just cant beat him because ldk anything on how to catch him, block, bait, punish... l find something l think works... and then it dosent... x n l read your litchi vs haz matchup stuff and i've been trying to generalize some of your advice, but clearly that just isnt enough. if you know anything about rachel vs haz, even if it's just one thing, would you mind helping me out with some good ol' advice here? l'm having a huge mental block and its driving me nuts. thank you
Manta Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 There aren't many characters who specialize in oki. If anything, it's just Litchi and Rachel. New players probably wouldn't even see what they could do unless they go to tournies or have someone close who's good. . . they are too busy doing UNDER HEAVEN DESTRUCTION (nothing wrong with this). The frustration and alienation I was getting at is that when someone reasonably newish goes and plays someone who then proceeds to do a combo, end it in corner oki that makes a reset and does that for a perfect... well it should be obvious why it's frustrating to them. I bring this on myself by playing Tager, but I just had to learn to deal with it. Others are not so patient. This comment applies a lot more to the likes of GG with its zero options when downed (You will get up on this frame and you will eat a meaty move unless you risk a reversal). If anything that makes BB a more complex game in that regard, where you have to think a bit about wakeup options.
Errol Posted July 22, 2011 Posted July 22, 2011 LK, what is your take on character specific combos? Does Litchi have much of these? I guess there might be some things that work on only Tager, but then it's easy to remember, because hey, it's Tager. And there can also be some combos that might work only on 30% of the cast.. How do you decide whether you're going to make use of some character specific combo?
Mightfo Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 4. A good DP that's hard to punish well by many of the cast. How is it hard to punish? You have like an 18(at least) frame window. Tager's 5c, Jin's 5d, Litchi's 6b[m], etc all seem to punish it just fine.
BatousaiJ Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 Compare that 18 ish frame window the other DPs like Jin's C DP, Ragna's ID, and Makoto's DP. If Litchi's DP had crappy invinc frames like Tsubaki's so you end up trading most of the time or something, this less recovery time would make sense but we know that's not the case. Also, I find it easier to bait DPs with a quick feint into air barrier(so I can also deal with wake up throw too) and during the time I land after blocking I find most Litchis are able to block, especially if I'm using Tager or something.
Mr.Biscuits Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 How do you Download niggas so fast? Is it because they Auto Pilot too much or is it because you're Skynet?
A.X.I.S. Posted July 25, 2011 Posted July 25, 2011 Biscuits...your avatar...WHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! LK when will we get to play again? Quit dodging my one on ones.
Rokunaya Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 How do you Download niggas so fast? Is it because they Auto Pilot too much or is it because you're Skynet? To properly answer your question: SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG DOLLANJDOLLASWAGKNIGHT SWAG SWAG
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 People are rewarded for hitting the other person by the most basic gameplay mechanism - doing damage. Add to this that knocking down the opponent always allows for the 'winner' to choose the range of the next engagement, I would say there are plenty of rewards for hitting the other guy already. After all, it's the point of the game, you don't need to reward it. Having good oki encourages more offensive play, IMO. When your best option after taking a knockdown is simply to reset what range the fight will be at once the other guy gets up, smart players will usually just sit on their life lead and start playing really safe/defensively, depending on the matchup. It seems like some people think these games should play out like a fight in an anime, where characters go back and forth on each other. When people play fighting games at a competitive level, this generally doesn't happen, because it is not conducive to winning. You want to press your advantage for as long as possible and do everything in your power to win (or not lose). If the game rewards offensive play, players will play offensively. If the game makes offensive situations more ambiguous or unsafe, players will stick to defense. As much as new players may hate oki and losing off of a single knockdown, they hate turtles and having to fight against the timer when they are down on life just as much. A new player will hate anything that makes them lose a lot. Emphasizing what beginners like is not something a competitive player will necessarily concern themselves with, that's something for the developer to worry about. Competitive players will always exploit whatever advantage they can get, which is why a lot of the newer games just turn out lame.
Manta Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 That's why i think BB has it okay, tech rolling is an oki system that at least involves both players, which is a lot more interesting than one that only features one. Perfectly Safe oki sitatuions should be avoided in game design.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 Eh, depends on what you like. I don't necessarily think the techroll system makes the game more interesting, cuz as I mentioned, players are just going to do their best to set up situations where someone has to tech in a certain way in order to avoid taking more damage. You end up with the same outcome, only now it's limited more by character specific options to punish techrolls. In effect, it creates a bigger divide between who has the best oki setups in the cast.
Airk Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 Having good oki encourages more offensive play, IMO. When your best option after taking a knockdown is simply to reset what range the fight will be at once the other guy gets up, smart players will usually just sit on their life lead and start playing really safe/defensively, depending on the matchup. This is probably true, but I don't think it's necessarily the best way to encourage offensive play. I'd rather encourage offensive play by making defense difficult - this is why I think you still, to this day, don't really see a lot of turtling in 3D fighters, is because it's really hard to block for a long time in them. It seems like some people think these games should play out like a fight in an anime, where characters go back and forth on each other. When people play fighting games at a competitive level, this generally doesn't happen, because it is not conducive to winning. You want to press your advantage for as long as possible and do everything in your power to win (or not lose). If the game rewards offensive play, players will play offensively. Exactly! But there are lots of ways to reward offensive play without stacking the deck in favor of knockdowns. Honestly, I find heavy oki games boring to watch - "Ohhh! Player 1 has the knockdown! Oki! He guesses wrong! Combo! Knockdown! Oki!" repeat. =/ If the game makes offensive situations more ambiguous or unsafe, players will stick to defense. I don't think having "weak" oki makes offense "ambiguous" or "unsafe" it just means that it doesn't get a big bonus. Emphasizing what beginners like is not something a competitive player will necessarily concern themselves with, that's something for the developer to worry about. Competitive players will always exploit whatever advantage they can get, which is why a lot of the newer games just turn out lame. Correct, but if you don't try to think like a game developer, you'll never understand why things in the game are the way they are. You'll just resort to writing rants on the internet about how aspect X of game Y sucks. Of course, you're still free to do that once you understand why it is the way it is, but at least you'll be more informed. Plus, I am compulsive about understanding the why's of things.
TITANIUM BEAST!!! Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 This is probably true, but I don't think it's necessarily the best way to encourage offensive play. I'd rather encourage offensive play by making defense difficult - this is why I think you still, to this day, don't really see a lot of turtling in 3D fighters, is because it's really hard to block for a long time in them. Not true. Tekken is actually pretty defensive, the game is basically ruled by movement and spacing. Offense starts happening when someone gets knocked down because oki in Tekken is strong (walls help too). Soul Calibur is another very defensive game. The only really offensive 3D game I can think of that is popular is Virtua Fighter. Exactly! But there are lots of ways to reward offensive play without stacking the deck in favor of knockdowns. Honestly, I find heavy oki games boring to watch - "Ohhh! Player 1 has the knockdown! Oki! He guesses wrong! Combo! Knockdown! Oki!" repeat. =/ There are two common ways to encourage offensive play: oki, or frametraps. Having good mixup is another way. The problem is that all three of these elements have been de-emphasized in recent games. Frametraps are especially more rare now. Think about why IB was nerfed in CS2; with most moves having terrible recovery on block, IB just made it too easy to play defensively and punish people for trying to attack you. As a result, there was a lot more of this ambiguous pokey-footsie play into big combos, into a wakeup setup if your character was fortunate enough to have good oki. I don't think having "weak" oki makes offense "ambiguous" or "unsafe" it just means that it doesn't get a big bonus. You have to have something to compensate, though. I wouldn't mind a weak oki game if I had a strong standing mixup game. Unfortunately, because most of these games are aimed at including newer players, there is more emphasis on designing the game to reward players who "mash out" random attacks. This is why the stand up offensive game is weak, it's generally very difficult to keep players honest or force mixups on them. And since a smart player will take the most effective route to win, you end up with more zoning/turtling/poking and less actual offense. Correct, but if you don't try to think like a game developer, you'll never understand why things in the game are the way they are. You'll just resort to writing rants on the internet about how aspect X of game Y sucks. Of course, you're still free to do that once you understand why it is the way it is, but at least you'll be more informed. Plus, I am compulsive about understanding the why's of things. It's not that I don't understand why the developers make games the way they do. I pretty much get why the games are designed the way they are now, and from a business perspective, it's borderline genius. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. It lends a sort of impermanence to the game, where it's just not very rewarding or entertaining to play after a certain point.
atdsutm Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) Hakumen sucks. S: NOL A+: Annoying characters Litchi A-: Good Chars B: Hakumen, Tager discuss pls after Evo 2011 what did you think made spark successful with Hakumen? congratulations btw Edited July 31, 2011 by atdsutm
WolfCrimson Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) discuss pls after Evo 2011 what did you think made spark successful with Hakumen? congratulations btw There's almost nothing to discuss. The gap between each tier is really small. Spark was just GODLIKE! Edit: Ofc, Skynet was GODLIKE as well, but Spark was like "Sorry bro, gonna crash you down" and just was more GODLIKE. Congrats to LK as well, you beat Japan! Edited July 31, 2011 by WolfCrimson
atdsutm Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 Best BBCS2 Evo so far (i didnt really want tokido to win though)
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