TD Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 yeah its neutral. if you do IAD j.2c, youre going to get the low (second hit) only. the first hit is for crossup feints/throw baits and such. regardless, its going to hurt. alot. for all the trouble its worth though, with the staple defense in this game being up-back -_- (obviously not true... all the time)
Roldy Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 LK, do you think it's better to take risks on wakeup (your own wakeup as well as the opponent's) than always play safe?
Nakkiel Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 yeah its neutral. if you do IAD j.2c, youre going to get the low (second hit) only. the first hit is for crossup feints/throw baits and such. regardless, its going to hurt. alot. for all the trouble its worth though, with the staple defense in this game being up-back -_- (obviously not true... all the time) The first hit of j.2D is actually an overhead also.
TD Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) oy, l never knew it was an overhead :o wow. edit: it is neutral! x.x l just tested it. lol Edited July 3, 2011 by TD
mynus Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 yeah its neutral. if you do IAD j.2c, youre going to get the low (second hit) only. You can always choose to make the first hit of j2D crossup if you iad. Say off of 5B jc iad you can start your jump with 7,8, or 9 depending on the distance and have it crossup for the first hit.
Nakkiel Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 oy, l never knew it was an overhead :o wow. edit: it is neutral! x.x l just tested it. lol Oh? That's a change I haven't tested then, it was an overhead in CS1. My apologies.
TD Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 ooh, lk l thought about this one. ok, this is rachel based. what about her gives you the most problems? ls it her pressure/mixup? oki? zoning? do you think she's easy or irritating to fight? also, although she is such a rare pokemon in na and jp, what do you feel us rachels are lacking? this question is kinda broad but im interested in what you think about it. lastly do you consider her mixup/oki 'one of the best in the game' from your experience? or has she been far outclassed in that department already. l dont mean by litchi godly oki stuff, just in general. im curious because l dont have a rachel master to ask all these questions just yet
huey253 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) I usually don't answer questions in LK's thread, but i thought it would be helpful since i play againist Wuku and Polka on a regular basis. (i don't know if LK plays againist any rachels) rachel's mixup involves alot of guesswork (againist the good rachels) which is pretty lame. Her zoning is meh, unless rachel uses her wind+lobelia, which makes it harder for her to capitalize on her mixup. I feel rachel's mixup is only second to carl's "unblockable" setups. Rachel's oki is pretty strong, due to being able to force a neutral tech (there are setups that beat roll/quick getup in the corner) and usually allow rachel to get unpunishable 50 50 mixup on the opponent. the problems that i feel american rachels currently have are (in order of priority) -don't mix it up well enough -rely on 2C too much -neutral game isn't strong enough -don't finish combos -don't use pumpkin well enough EDIT: I FORGOT THE HIGHEST THING ON THE LIST, WIND MANAGEMENT rachel doesn't do very well in jp RIGHT NOW due to her being a difficult character to play correctly imo i think rachel will start winning alot in jp around august Edited July 4, 2011 by huey253
Tong Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Does the "spinning" hitstun has a different property? Seems Ragna cant pickup with 6C after a Deadspike for some odd reason, only happens when they're spinning otherwise it is possible if they're floating.
huey253 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 LK, what do you feel are the primary benefits and problems with netplay. DO you feel that it is worth it? How do you improve in a place where you can't play againist offline competition in a regular pattern? -huey253
mAc Chaos Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 He obviously thinks it's worth it considering how much he's playing online. You get matchup experience.
huey253 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 He obviously thinks it's worth it considering h ow much he's playing online. You get matchup experience. i know it is, i would like an extended response if i can. from him :
Grendy Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 I'd like an extended response to the question as well since most of my play time is spent in online lobbies. I can make it to ranbats and tournies every once in a while but on the whole I feel like the online experience in matchups is a whole lot different than what I end up playing when I can make it to offline events.
Lord Knight Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 btw what makes you think that Hakumen is on the same level as Tager in your personal tier list? He's not the same level as Tager but he is weaker than CS1 because: 1) Lower overall damage 2) Doesn't carry to the corner well 3) Easily zoned 4) Less damage off D 5) j.D is dead maybe another time Location BK PSN howling-_-moon (ALT) alrighty lk im going to do just what you said, thanks. l should probably write stuff down because l forget alot of it too quickly. heres something silly, do you think writing yourself a mini-guide on your character based off your own experience is a good idea, or even necessary? lt sounds like something people do... but it also sounds like a silly thing to do ._. I don't think there's anything wrong with that as long as it is full with useful information. why is j2D + 19 on block, a crossup, and a low? She needs it. lol. Based on the past month or so, what would be your tier list? Do you feel Ragna is tourney viable in this regulation? What oki commands do you use when executing Great Wheel oki. :3 What Great Wheel oki 138xxx's more popular than others? When tossing out litchi's staff, are you committed to a launch before or after you start to launch once the staff begins to shake? What are litchi's max damages starts and hit confirm.(pretty much, what starts do i burst. *shrugs* pretty helpful right?) S: Makoto Hazama Noel Jin Litchi - Litchi A: Valk Rachel Carl Tao Mu Tsubaki A-: Arakune Lambda Plat Ragna Hakumen Bang B+ - Tager Short explanation Makoto is too good. More or less an easy CS1 Litchi. Neutral game is lacking in some matchups but she makes up for it with runback power and pure damage. Mixup is simple and effective. Hazama - Damage is way too high. Zoning is good, mobility is good, pressure is legit. Runback factor is even higher than Makoto. Only lacking in consistent damage with less than 50 meter. Noel - Random factor is high, damage is high everywhere and is rewarded for taking silly risks. Neutral game is better now that some normals are fixed. Thanks to D, she's never down until her health is 0. Jin - Solid all around. Gains meter quickly and is able to use it. Higher damage, easy confirms, good pressure thanks to new gatlings. -- Litchi - Still dominates neutral, still has high damage. Daisharin mixup is practically unseeable now and mostly does more damage than CS1. She doesn't get crazy off all hits like the top guys, but can get it in off mixup stuff/counter hits, keeping her from being tops. Meter gain is still high. 4D is ridiculous. There can always be more stuff discovered with her, so you never know what will happen with her strength. --- Valk - Good damage, great mobility. Strong pressure. Does better against zoners this time. His damage off his mixup is still high (not stupid though) and he is still hard to approach, so he's here. Rachel - J.A instant overhead, damage off baden baden lily. . .damage off everything. Fixed. Carl - Training mode. Tao - Same as CS1 but less damage off random hits (like 500-1000 less on average). J.D is weaker too so she can't 1 hit > time out certain characters anymore. Still really strong. Mu - Annoying strong neutral, buff overhead. 236A/j236A are really good. Outright wins or loses matchups. Tsubaki - Annoying. Fast charge, good corner carry. Safer pressure and easier access to unblockable is good. Really good at controlling ground and the area right above her, so anyone that can move in and out or put something there easily won't have too much problems. --- Arakune - mixup is still good but can't be as abare as CS1. Sometimes needs 2 curses to win. Slower jump is more of a weakness than faster dashes being a strength. Overall still strong, still S once he curses you. Zoners body him. Lambda - strong mixup, more consistent damage. Max damage potential is high but you need to confirm well and the situation won't arise often if they play safe. Plat - Actually a really strong character, but not always having the tool you want all the time keeps her from being higher. Ragna - Strong, but not having the consistent high meter gain of CS1 Ragna hurts a lot. Meter has to be used much wiser than before, making being wild more risky, which is bad for him. Solid Ragna still works. Hakumen - jD is dead. Bang - Really high potential in the corner, but you have to be all the way in the corner. Corner carry is poor unless they are standing. Of course it's still Bang, so his runback factor is still crazy high. Pressure is better than before. FRKZ is needed much more now. --- Tager - Big slow grappler, still gets zoned, still gets hit by instant overheads and Tager only combos. ---- I feel like anyone can consistently win in this version except for Tager. Look at the past 2 NSB's, they've been won by a Ragna/Hakumen/Bang team, with the Bang making miracles in grand finals. Despite it not being in a best of three format, all the characters can work now. Most of my Daisharin setups are character specific. 138xxx is still the one I use the most and still the most variable. OS hatsu stuff is dead but it's still good vs new players. 133xxx is technically a better setup because you get more mixup opportunities, but it is harder to confirm against a variety of situations (when compared with 138 setup). Also timing for unseeables is a little bit easier with 138. 138339 - Revised Daisharin 138333. Used because Chun now has 74 p2 so it kills your combo really quickly. Damage off mixup ranges from 4.5k - 5000. Still the most variable Daisharin setup. Still useful against Jin/Hakumen to make them whiff Yukikaze. 133xxx - Still exists, used for fuzzy. 613xxx - Tager Daisharin. Jump straight falling jC to beat sledge. Cancel jC into barrier in case he does MTW. After a blocked jC, go into rising jC or 3c > haku > hatsu > last hit Daisharin > combo. 139339 - Ragna Daisharin setup when he has 50 meter. Easier to combo him if he goes for C ID > RC. Litchi 5D launch is 9f startup and cancellable from the 12th frame. 2D launch is 10f but cancellable from the 14th frame. Both launch 2f after the button is released. So, you can think of it being her fastest move once the stick is shaking. Also, Litchi's staffless normals are all cancellable into 2D, but only standingn normals (5A, 5B, 6B, 5C) are cancellable into 5D. Needless to say, staffless pressure that uses 5D are both faster and safer than pressure that uses 2D. Last one should be obvious. . . but getting hit by Litchi 6B[m] in the corner, either raw air hit (wallbounds) or counter hit (wallbounces) is huge damage. Essentially, when making a decision to burst against Litchi, it's best if you know what combo will follow (ie looking at her meter, position on the screen, etc). Of course, this applies to all characters in the game. I'm going to assume that pretty much no one wants to get taken into the corner, so I'll make a list of everything she can do that can carry to the corner from midscreen. --- Point blank 2A[m] Point blank 5B[m] Point blank 5C[m] Point blank 3C[m] Jump in jB[m] Most staffless hits 4D Back throw Forward throw (from round start position, gains 50 meter) 2C[m] counter hit Staff launch anti air counter hit ItsuuA ItsuuB Airthrow 3C[m] counterhit Most [m] normals with 50 meter Crossup j2D Counterhit j2D Counter hit 6B[m] Raw 6c yeah its neutral. if you do IAD j.2c, youre going to get the low (second hit) only. the first hit is for crossup feints/throw baits and such. regardless, its going to hurt. alot. for all the trouble its worth though, with the staple defense in this game being up-back -_- (obviously not true... all the time) Still useful against people who don't option select throw tech. Also you can get a spacing where you can get both hits to hit even though you crossup, which helps against people who just jump. The first hit of j2D is indeed a mid. LK, do you think it's better to take risks on wakeup (your own wakeup as well as the opponent's) than always play safe? Evaluate the situation properly. Do you have meter to RC your reversal? How does/how has your opponent been baiting your reversal. Do you know of any option selects that they might have been using on you? Are they making your reversal whiff so you can't RC it? Do they crossup your inputs? Have they been confidently doing meaties to you? How much life do they/you have left? How much damage would you take for punishing it? How much damage would they take if you hit them? All these factors and more are important when judging whether to reversal or not. Generally, when looking at a glance and seeing that most of these aren't in your favour, you should avoid doing a reversal, but it's ok to be a little random once in a while. This includes both sides of the coin - not doing Ragna's ID when you have 50 meter (if they start baiting a lot) will give you a free escape and then you'll still have your meter. At the same time, randomly doing Ragna's ID when you don't have 50 meter keeps them from getting too aggressive on you and establishes you are willing to counterattack when needed. In the end, all I can say is that it's a judgement call. ooh, lk l thought about this one. ok, this is rachel based. what about her gives you the most problems? ls it her pressure/mixup? oki? zoning? do you think she's easy or irritating to fight? also, although she is such a rare pokemon in na and jp, what do you feel us rachels are lacking? this question is kinda broad but im interested in what you think about it. lastly do you consider her mixup/oki 'one of the best in the game' from your experience? or has she been far outclassed in that department already. l dont mean by litchi godly oki stuff, just in general. im curious because l dont have a rachel master to ask all these questions just yet I play Litchi so Rachel has never been too much of a problem for me (once I learned how to play against her). She's a little bit irritating to fight because most of the Rachel's I've played against are wild. Litchi is shorter on crouch than most characters so I have to do a little less guesswork than most people, but her mixup is still intimidating. Pressure/mixup are Rachel's best hope against Litchi, because Litchi can play so well against her in neutral. US Rachels on average - Mash 2C too much Weak neutral Mediocre/poor wind management Poor defense Mediocre/poor use of pumpkin Rachel's mixup is hella solid again, for sure. Most characters have to just deal with it too rather than try to diceroll their way out. Does the "spinning" hitstun has a different property? Seems Ragna cant pickup with 6C after a Deadspike for some odd reason, only happens when they're spinning otherwise it is possible if they're floating. No idea.. It might just be that you're too close for it to connect.
Lord Knight Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 LK, what do you feel are the primary benefits and problems with netplay. DO you feel that it is worth it? How do you improve in a place where you can't play againist offline competition in a regular pattern? -huey253 Netplay is great for a ton of reasons. 1) You can play people outside of your scene. People tend to have similar playstyles/habits within their respective scenes. Even if they use a character that you play against all the time, you can work on adapting to how other players use the same options. 2) No planning is needed to play. Just get on and hit network and you're good. Gatherings can need anywhere from 0 to a ton of planning depending on how far people have to travel, people's schedules, etc, 3) You can play against characters that people in your scene don't play against. It's an undeniable fact that there are popular and unpopular characters. You can eventually find someone decent who plays an unpopular character to practice against. Some practice >>>>>>>>>> none at all. 4) If you don't have a scene, you can actually play the game. Some scenes are healthy and play against each other [multiple times] weekly. Others don't get to play each other irl a lot (myself included) - netplay is invaluable if you're in that situation. 5) You can play against a large variety of styles. There are people who just hold up back, people who just mash dp, people who play really safe. . . playing online gives you access to a big pool of a variety of players and teaches you how to adapt quickly. 6) It's a good testing ground for new stuff, especially if there is no one around when you want to try stuff. Problems 1) Connection issues, but these can be mitigated by playing people in your region. 2) If you're playing with the intent of improving, netplay can be a difficult. Because it's a low risk environment (outside of ranked, where losing means losing PSR), people may have a lax playstyle, which is counterproductive for improvement. 3) Netplayrs tend to play with their online friends, so similar problems to irl scenes can arise. This can be avoided by just playing anyone (with a good connection, of course). When used right, netplay is definitely worth it. If you're trying to become really skilled, a good balance of offline play, netplay and tourney play should get the job done. As far as your last question, there are a couple of ways (I've done all of these, on netplay). First, push yourself to do the best things you know your character can do (this is limited by how much potential your character has). You can always start finding ways to deal with tactics you might not have been exposed to as well. Watch videos and practicing combos. Even though you can't play someone offline, that doesn't stop you from playing online, and as long as you try to play well and the connection is good, it isn't too far away from getting matches irl
TD Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 l see. thank you again lk, helpful as always. and thank you too huey. l'll have to definitely take this stuff into consideration. (l lol'd at the irony of rachel players being wild... we must be pissing her off ) l'll have to try the whole beating tactics thing. besides baiting bursts ldk how to beat things like counter assault or dp mashing through pressure. but l guess l have a new goal now
Airk Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 DP mashing through pressure is beaten by leaving "safe gaps" in your pressure - i.e. ending your blockstring on something that leaves you insufficiently negative to get hit by the DP, and then blocking, punishing. Since I think the fastest DPs in the game (inferno Divider, Jayoku) hit on frame 7, this means stopping on any move that leaves you -7 or better. (-4 or better if they are actually IBing.) Counterassaults are harder, but if you stagger your blockstring weirdly, you may catch people trying to a CA even though they're not in blockstun, because they were expecting to be, and generally that doesn't work out well for them. :P
superscience890 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 At least from what I know, Counter assaults that involve attacking back against your opponent, like Bang's, Tager's, Hakumen's, Ragna, Rachel etc... you can use a jump cancelable move, jump over their counter assault, and then punish. As for Noel's....This is a little theoryish too much but I wanna say you could probably just jump backward and punish it. The problem with this is that you lose pressure against Noel and go back to a neutral which could be a bad thing depending on who you play
Rhiya Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 At least from what I know, Counter assaults that involve attacking back against your opponent, like Bang's, Tager's, Hakumen's, Ragna, Rachel etc... you can use a jump cancelable move, jump over their counter assault, and then punish. I'll confirm this is legit against Tsu. Tried to CA Ragna's 6A (jump cancel only). Stupid, stupid, stupid idea.
TD Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 hmm, alright. l think l only have issues with dp through pressure when im not playing rachel, since with her there isnt really big holes to exploit, so l always expect respect even with other chars. but as l start playing rachel only this wont be as huge an issue. yeah.... but ca's are a bit of a bane to me. theyre so... unexpected i'll try you guys' ideas though. l like the idea of baiting a ca... oooh im getting so hype to do this now! since most ca's start on frame 8 and invul ends around frame 20... in order to bait it l need to be in the air 8f in advance, ib the hit, and then l have about 8f to punish most of the time, so l can land 5b. :3 this is going to be godlike.
Airk Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Actually, I think if you jump cancel, most likely the CA is just going to go under you and whiff completely, so you don't have to worry about blocking (though it won't hurt. :P) This isn't really the hard part though. The hard part is figuring on when the opponent is GOING to CA.
Dacidbro Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Just a small correction, Hakumen's damage for the most part stayed very similar to his output in CS1, it was only really reduced on his counters. Some confirms actually increased in damage, and generally spend less/gain more meter. He also gained some versatility, on things like 4C special cancel. I can't possibly rate him as low as Tager for those reasons.
Nakkiel Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Just a small correction, Hakumen's damage for the most part stayed very similar to his output in CS1, it was only really reduced on his counters. Some confirms actually increased in damage, and generally spend less/gain more meter. He also gained some versatility, on things like 4C special cancel. I can't possibly rate him as low as Tager for those reasons. lmfao
Dacidbro Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) It... did? The only other large change I noticed was his Renka follow up damage was lowered, which is mitigated largely by the new kishu 6C combos, and Hotaru isn't broken stupid anymore. So it's fair to argue his mid screen damage was reduced largely, but his corner damage is similar and more efficient concerning meter spent. Also, Tsubaki anywhere is massive corner push now, often confirming a corner combo even mid screen. In a game where most (Non overpowered) characters have lower end mid screen damage, doesn't that just seem normal? Also, his hotaru can still be combo'd mid screen in many cases, in a reversal context. EDIT: 3C being techable is a big nerf too. Edited July 5, 2011 by Dacidbro
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