Lord Knight Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 again I'll post links and answers questions in a bit (from last thread).
C0R Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I have a serious question. LK what do you think about pre-determined blockstrings in BB? While it is good to consider your options at any one time, I would personally argue that it leads to bad habbits such as pattern play, your thoughts?
toanenadiz Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 How do you think the Litchi vs Lambda match-up has changed from CS1 to CS2?
Tong Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I would answer all your questions, but that would lead to people doing the same thing and eventually, It would be a massive discussion like the locked thread. So, let me ask again Why air instant blocking doesnt beat unblockables anymore like CT? I know It's been around since CS1, but never gave too much though about it, were people really Air IB'ing everthing that was supposed to beat them? Also, do you believe wake-up Break Burst(Gold) is better than Green Bursting in general? Gold is just too good for it because It does what supposedly green was meant to do, get you off pressure and puts you back in the game. Why isnt Hazama doing very well in qualifying for SBO? Just lack of players or the char itself isnt that reliable? Same for Rachel, she's playable again but cant see many in Is game-chariot crew overrated?
Koopa_Klawz Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) apologies if this isn't gameplay related but: what's a good way to control your saltiness/temper when you're having trouble with bb? Edited June 17, 2011 by Koopa_Klawz not enough detail
Nakkiel Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 I would answer all your questions, but that would lead to people doing the same thing and eventually, It would be a massive discussion like the locked thread. So, let me ask again Why air instant blocking doesnt beat unblockables anymore like CT? I know It's been around since CS1, but never gave too much though about it, were people really Air IB'ing everthing that was supposed to beat them? Also, do you believe wake-up Break Burst(Gold) is better than Green Bursting in general? Gold is just too good for it because It does what supposedly green was meant to do, get you off pressure and puts you back in the game. Why isnt Hazama doing very well in qualifying for SBO? Just lack of players or the char itself isnt that reliable? Same for Rachel, she's playable again but cant see many in Is game-chariot crew overrated? Your questions were already answered in the previous thread.
Tong Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I know, but who knows. Maybe he matured and changed his mind about these questions, maybe I also wanna hear from a different POV... Just to be sure and safe.
Yggjrasil Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 What are the benefits from getting Guard Bonus again?
Linear04 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 What are the benefits from getting Guard Bonus again? every blocking you do is IB, regardless of if you actually ib or not
Nini Heart Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I know, but who knows. Maybe he matured and changed his mind about these questions, maybe I also wanna hear from a different POV... Just to be sure and safe. Aren't you a bit full of yourself?
DaiAndOh Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 apologies if this isn't gameplay related but: what's a good way to control your saltiness/temper when you're having trouble with bb? If you mean online play, just put down the controller/stick then laugh because online doesn't matter so much. IRL deep breathing, temporary isolation, earphones, talking to people about not BB things, or put in perspective you're angry about a video game. Whichever works for you.
Tong Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Aren't you a bit full of yourself? I apologize, didnt mean that. Its just that I didnt find my answer before, but now I did.
Lord Knight Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 I have a serious question. LK what do you think about pre-determined blockstrings in BB? While it is good to consider your options at any one time, I would personally argue that it leads to bad habbits such as pattern play, your thoughts? What do you mean by "pre-determined blockstrings?" This game has gatling routes, so essentially you could say that all blockstrings are "pre-determined". And for certain characters (I know you play Mu), structured blockstrings are rather helpful (like stuff with steins, staffless pressure with Litchi, pumpkin/lobelia/frog stuff with Rachel). As long as your pressure varied, you could avoid predictability. How do you think the Litchi vs Lambda match-up has changed from CS1 to CS2? I think it's a bit more even than before. Litchi can still play neutral all right against Lambda, but just because it isn't 1 hit > corner again, Lambda does better. I would answer all your questions, but that would lead to people doing the same thing and eventually, It would be a massive discussion like the locked thread. So, let me ask again Why air instant blocking doesnt beat unblockables anymore like CT? I know It's been around since CS1, but never gave too much though about it, were people really Air IB'ing everthing that was supposed to beat them? Also, do you believe wake-up Break Burst(Gold) is better than Green Bursting in general? Gold is just too good for it because It does what supposedly green was meant to do, get you off pressure and puts you back in the game. Why isnt Hazama doing very well in qualifying for SBO? Just lack of players or the char itself isnt that reliable? Same for Rachel, she's playable again but cant see many in Is game-chariot crew overrated? http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?11915-LK-s-GAMEPLAY-RELATED-QUESTIONS-ONLY-CS2-thread&p=1051998&viewfull=1#post1051998 apologies if this isn't gameplay related but: what's a good way to control your saltiness/temper when you're having trouble with bb? Depends. Different stuff works for everyone. Online I just stop playing or find someone else to play. I sometimes am even salty after winning so just peacing out works for me. At tournaments, you just have to suck up a loss and remember it isn't the end of the world. It's really a loss if you didn't learn anything from it. Getting some air helps me too. What are the benefits from getting Guard Bonus again? Auto IB everything.
Fluck Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 C/P from previous thread. Dear Lord Knight, Where's the princess? (I'm curious what your avatar is all about) I've seen people talk about TRM set-ups, but I've never seen a set-up explained properly. How does a TRM set-up work and what are some examples of such set-ups? I'd also like to ask if it only works on OS Barrier Tech users, as I can't imagine how these set-ups will work on people who only tech throws on reaction. I'm aware that Manta answered it here: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?11915-LK-s-GAMEPLAY-RELATED-QUESTIONS-ONLY-CS2-thread&p=1054360&viewfull=1#post1054360 So I'd like to ask why people choose to yomi/OS throws instead of purely reacting so they don't fall for such setups.
Fugu Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I've got a few Litchi-based questions for you. 1. How do you feel about Litchi's pokes? More specifically, what are they good for (absolutely nothing, sing it again, etc.)? I find myself using 2B[m] and 6B[m] rarely but they seem like a low reward proposition for a medium-high amount of risk. 3C[m] seems to sort of border on worthless; how do you use this? I'm also uncertain as to the particular advantages of 6C[m] and I've yet to incorporate that; if you could shed some light onto that I'd appreciate it. 1.5. Not a poke, but now that j.C is techable, what use does it have neutral? 2. In line with normals-related questions, what do you feel is the purpose of 6A[m] in CS2? How often is it worth the meter expense just to have access to an overhead that doesn't drop the staff, especially considering the potential for damage is similar to 4D (and maybe even less midscreen unless I'm doing it wrong)? 3. You mentioned in the previous thread that the IB nerf may change the dynamics of using Daisharin midscreen for pressure due to the implausibility of IBing the first hit and jumping out. What's your take on this now? 4. I have a lot of trouble AAing effectively against much of the cast as Litchi. Is there any advice you could provide regarding this? Moreso with the staff but staffless would be good too. 5. Given the gimpy pokes and the short carry of Litchi's midscreen combos, how do you work your opponent towards the corner? It seems substantially more difficult to make or keep space as Litchi in CS2 and I have a feeling that I'm throwing the staff out more often than I should be. 6. How pertinent are the newfound advantages of staffless Litchi relative to staff Litchi to her game? By this I mean the fact that Litchi builds much more distance, damage, and meter with her staffless combos midscreen than she does with her staff combos. I suppose what I'm asking is given this information, is it potentially desirable to forego the staff entirely midscreen despite the loss in range due to the fact that it can get you into the corner on almost any hit? I realize that this is a lot of questions and if you don't feel like answering all of them, I understand/would appreciate any answers you can give. Thanks in advance.
Lord Knight Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 From last thread. lk are you you going to pick up rachel now that shes good again? rather, does she look decent enough to consider picking up. I was going to, but now I'm putting time into Makoto. I feel like 2C damage with meter is too good anywhere, and easy corner carry into really hard to escape pressure is great, so I might play her later. lmao, this fucking thread. What exactly did you lose to when it came to noel? i assume i should mash 2D more tell me when you get back into new york! I didn't play safe enough. Playing against Noel is a whole different game. . . I've been treating her the way I treat Hakumen or Tager now. Hey, Lord Knight. I was wondering what you thought of the tiers and potential for certain characters in CS2. I main Hazama, and he seems to be doing pretty well as a character, despite not winning any tournaments. From my perspective, it seems Makoto is dominating the BlazBlue scene right now. I know she's top tier, and can hit 5K combos with no meter if I'm not mistaken. Do you think CS2 is more balanced than it's CS1 counterpart, or does Makoto really have no equals when it comes to tier placement? This game is more balanced than CS1. Litchi really did dominate that game. I think what Makoto is lacking is a really strong neutral game, like Litchi has. Against characters like Mu, Rachel, Lambda Hazama, Makoto has the edge pretty much in damage only, but it's still enough to put her on top. I'm sure she's the best. Dear Lord Knight, Where's the princess? (I'm curious what your avatar is all about) I've seen people talk about TRM set-ups, but I've never seen a set-up explained properly. How does a TRM set-up work and what are some examples of such set-ups? I'd also like to ask if it only works on OS Barrier Tech users, as I can't imagine how these set-ups will work on people who only tech throws on reaction. I can't find her So, lets not just talk about Throw Reject. Let's talk about throws. Throws are actually rather varied in this game. Throw reject works whether they use OS tech or not, as long as you throw them some short time after they try to tech. A basic throw reject setup works as such - essentially do some action that would make them try to throw you, then do a normal that's cancellable into a throw (most characters 2A). If they try to throw when you did the 2A, you should get a purple throw reject. Characters with items/setups (Litchi staff, Rachel pumpkin, etc) can get green throw reject. First get your item out somehow. Then, again, do some action (normally dashing or standing in front of them a little longer than normal, or do a couple of 2A's and dash. . .be creative). Using the item as the tick, if you do it properly, you can get a green throw reject. Admittedly, not that many people over here use OS tech throw. On players like these you can use throw whiff strategy. If you look at it from purely numbers, some characters only do 1500 off throw, some characters require some special meter or meter period to combo off their throws, not all characters can combo off their throws (midscreen). In the corner, most characters do 2500-3000 off their throws. So, just numbers wise, doing things that make people whiff throws is very strong, as it can lead into higher damage and better positioning (most popularly Litchi dash j2D RC in CS1 which lead into 5.4k, and Jin's dash 6D). All characters have ways to make people whiff throws. Keep in mind that the answer to purple throw reject is to simply not preempt their tech, so mix in green throws. LK, how do I deal with people hating on top tier? There's always character select. LK, what would you say are the hardest match-ups with Litchi now? What chars distinctly seem to have an advantage against her now? I don't feel like any of Litchi's matchups are outright bad this version. However, matchups that are annoying are matches where their risk for doing something outweighs the amount of damage Litchi does for punishing them (most of the time). Hazama, Noel, Makoto are all winnable matches, just more difficult because the punishes are less harsh overall (depending on position of course). LK what do you think is the best motivation for people to improve? How do you lead a community to improve? I say that because to me it feels like BB in Toronto is dead. Actually I say that because it feels like we suck and nobody is improving at all, in fact, people are getting worse. Feels like playing CS1, adapting to your specific character CS2 nerfs, but not taking advantage to the characters buffs and changes to the game system. Do you like this game? That's honestly the main thing that keeps me working and trying to improve - I like this game, and I enjoy competition (and winning). I feel like you should try finding what your motivation is for playing (among your community). Despite a bunch of people around me not playing or taking it seriously, I still try to improve. No, it wasn't stupid for me to imply he didn't know the matchup, I'm the one that played him and if anyone knew how well he understood the matchup it would be me. At first, he was completely free to all of the new Bang tricks/frame advantages/poison nail dashes/ etc, and by the end of the tournament he was rock solid in the matchup. Other than that, yeah, you're right. By the way your boy Nerdjosh got bodied by WC Marvel For LK: What would you say is the 'best' way for Bang to attempt to deny Litchi's 2A 5B 2A pressure? IB Backdash at the right time? That shit was blowing me up real bad 2A 5B 2A has no gap. But, in CS2, you can only run it a limited amount of times (while in CS1 you could just do it xN).
Rhiya Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) So I'd like to ask why people choose to yomi/OS throws instead of purely reacting so they don't fall for such setups. As per OS tech, I personally like OS tech and use it because it's strong in this sense: I don't have to commit to throw reject and leave myself open to get hit if I guess wrong. Even if I'm more vulnerable to TRM, I think it's worth the risk until I actually /do/ get hit with some TRM tactics simply because it eliminates a lot of guesswork on my part as a defender. I don't expect people to TRM me until they do it, basically. That's down there in yomi layers since they have to be yomi-ing my throw rejects, and you can't even see OS throw tech. As per why to yomi it out, it is /impossible/ to react to the green exclamation points for a normal throw, although the startup+exclamation points should be enough (but the startup is really subtle on a throw, so have fun noticing that in time). Since you're not going to realistically react to it, you're going to have to yomi it out by looking for signals and times that someone will likely go for a throw. Example signals/times: -Doing anything that puts them in throw range, /especially/ if they're already in range for most normal pressure. Short dashes, walk forward, empty jump, etc. -You've been blocking their shit for a string or two, or you're respecting haaaaaaaaaaaard. -End of the round. Throw>super is good unburstable damage for some of the cast in the corner, so it's a good way to close out the round and shut down your opponent's options for getting out. And if just throw is enough to kill you, well, I'd take it. Edited June 17, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos
Nini Heart Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 As per why to yomi it out, it is /impossible/ to react to the green exclamation points for a normal throw, although the startup+exclamation points should be enough (but the startup is really subtle on a throw, so have fun noticing that in time). Since you're not going to realistically react to it, you're going to have to yomi it out by looking for signals and times that someone will likely go for a throw. I must be doing something wrong since I can break greens on reaction.
Linear04 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Playing against Noel is a whole different game. . . I've been treating her the way I treat Hakumen or Tager now. so its a matter of playing super safe/lame now?
Airk Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I must be doing something wrong since I can break greens on reaction. You can say this, but there's not actually any way to prove/disprove it. However, unless you are noticing the startup, odds are you are anticipating, because 13 frames is below the threshold of what people can be expected to react to reliably. The 20 frame startup+break window is reactable to, but lets face it - Makoto's overhead is 20 frames and it hits people all the damn time, so if you've got any level of reliability teching throws, you're probably subconsciously anticipating. Unless you can block Makoto's overhead all the time too, in which case, maybe you're just crazy fast. :P I think this has all been gone over plenty of times though, so let's not further clutter the thread. Suffice it to say that MOST people don't tech green throws on reaction because they can't. Maybe you're special.
Nini Heart Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I think there is a misunderstanding here. Breaking a throw means you have 13 frames to react to a BIG GREEN exclamation mark in addition to the throw startup frames. Blocking overheads is much harder since their animation is pretty subtle. Makoto's overhead is 19 frame startup of a subtle animation. Not sure how long it takes for the brain to recognize that the animation is starting up and telling you to gear yourself for an overhead, but i'm pretty sure that the time between when you realize the overhead is coming out and the time when it hits is much less than 19 frames. I swear to god if there was a BIG green exclamation point at the startup of every overhead in this game, I could block it on reaction.
M4g1c4lM4g1 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I must be doing something wrong since I can break greens on reaction. Maybe consider running up to be a false "startup" for the throw, making it possible to react? I don't know, most of my throw breaks are me trying to throw them at the same time. >.>
Fluck Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 It's possible, like Nini says the green exclamation mark + momentum stop is a huge tell, and tells are a big part of reacting to a move. If Bang yelled OVERHEADS!! when he does 5C 6B everyone could block it. Lord Knight, I understand that getting a throw whiff is very strong, but I'd appreciate a little more explanation on the strategy. I'm not looking for character-specific info but rather the principle behind getting a throw whiff. Do you bait a throw and backdash to get it? I'm having trouble imagining the scenario. Thanks for the advice.
Achtzehn Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 since I see talk about throw reject going on I had a question for LK. LK what do you think about confirming throw rejects by listening? What I mean by this is that in many matches that I have played I have started to listen to peoples inputs when I'm doing pressure or when I'm blocking pressure. I found out that its not that hard to listen for throw attempts when people play stick (the fact that some of you slam the buttons so hard you can hear them from two floors up makes this almost practical) and throw a little after their throw reject attempt or break their throw attempt. I realize this takes away some focus from the screen where you should have your attention focused to block mixup, but I think offensively this could help with baiting out throw reject misses. What do you think?
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